What render package to pick?

[AndyThomas]

Dear All,

 

Our architectural office has been using ACAD 2D and we are now moving to 3D with Revit (slowly) and I am looking at how best to produce renderings.

Is there a justifiable reason (I must justify it to my bosses) to use a render package other than the one provided with revit?I am very keen to produce quality images and although told that 3dsmax is the standard I see there are a myriad of packages to choose from. I am told 3dviz is just as good as 3dsmax for architecture because we don't need animation. Is this true? Isn't a fly by or walk through animation? Any help is much appreciated. If the office is using Revit, will the different packages be able to use the models we produce?

Quality is my preference but obviously ease of use and cost are issues.

Training is also an issue. I was told it is best to get some professional training at the start then learn through on line tutorials. Is this better than trying to learn through tutorials at the start and then getting some professional training? And where do you get decent training? I am in a small firm on Vancouver Island

 

Starting off with zero experience is a real headache. I Hope you can help point me in the right direction.

 

Many thanks,

 

Andy

[Christopher Nichols]

Always start with the tools you have. If you know very little about 3D, then just stick with it. Commiting to 3d studio whould involved a full time commitment of learning (based on what you have told me about your firm). I have seen amazing things come out of simple packages.

 

OK to answer your questions about MAX vs. VIZ. You can do animation if VIZ, you can do walkthroughs etc... You can't do deforming animations (such as character animation). The only drawback I saw that DID effect architectural stuff was that (and this may have changed), I could not animate shader parameters, such as color, etc... Besides that VIZ is a great option.

 

As far as training is concerned, I am sure that Vancover has a lot of options. I would contact your local Autodesk dealer and ask them about training options. Make sure and tell them this is for architectural work, or you may get stuck in a class trying to animate some dragon with a bunch of 18 year olds.

[Devin Johnston]

Is there a justifiable reason (I must justify it to my bosses) to use a render package other than the one provided with revit?[/color]I am very keen to produce quality images and although told that 3dsmax is the standard I see there are a myriad of packages to choose from.

 

If you believe that you will be using your render package for years to come then it's advisable to look into the ones you feel will be most helpful for your firm. Good quality images can be produced from any render package, the quality of the images is based on the user in most cases not the software. All of the images you see on this site that are exceptional were the result of years of hard work, trial and error, and the combination of tutorials and classes.

 

I am told 3dviz is just as good as 3dsmax for architecture because we don't need animation. Is this true? Isn't a fly by or walk through animation?

 

Max & Viz are close cousins, basically Viz is a striped down version of Max with most of the advanced animation and a few other tools removed. For a beginner or even an advanced user Viz will work fine in most cases and it doesn’t hurt that it's about half the price of Max.

 

will the different packages be able to use the models we produce?[/color]

 

Most packages will import .3ds files which are a standard format for 3d modeling. I'm not familiar with Rivit but since it's the next step in the AutoCAD evolution I would expect it will not only export .3ds files but also DWG's. Max & Viz can import both of these formats but DWG's are preferable.

 

Training is also an issue. I was told it is best to get some professional training at the start then learn through on line tutorials. Is this better than trying to learn through tutorials at the start and then getting some professional training? And where do you get decent training?

 

You’re in luck because there are several Discreet training locations in Canada, check this link out.

http://www4.discreet.com/training/

[AndyThomas]

Thanks all,

 

It sounds like I should be sticking with whatever I get with Revit. At present it is Accurender but I am told that 3DViz will come with it in version 8.0, out soon. As suspected, after having looked all over the net, it seems the user is the most important factor, not the package. Having started to use photoshop I see it is responsible for making all the average (better than what I'll start with I'm sure) renders look good. Is that blasphemy?

Seeing as this rendering and imaging malarkey is setting my enthusiasm nerves alight I see it as a side of the business I would love to make my major. What would you say is the best time to take training courses? At the very beginning or once the basics have been mastered via tutorials?

Is switching between packages a big deal or, once the concepts are known, do they operate in a similar fashion. i.e If I see myself as putting some effort in and progressing, (including deforming animations mentioned etc) do I need to start with the most advanced package in the first place?

You have mentioned .dwg and .3ds file types but revit produces .rvt files. I presume 3DViz will import these files as 3D models and then I just render it there. I really must start using these things instead of talking about them, mustn't I.

 

Thanks again for your help.

 

Andy

[Devin Johnston]

Having started to use photoshop I see it is responsible for making all the average (better than what I'll start with I'm sure) renders look good. Is that blasphemy?

 

Photoshop is a very important tool as you will find out, it would be very hard to make a rendering without it. Most of the work Photoshop does is in editing images like bitmaps or adding to renderings that may need touchups or additional landscaping or something like that.

 

What would you say is the best time to take training courses? At the very beginning or once the basics have been mastered via tutorials?

 

I would say that getting off on the right foot is probably the most important thing you can do. Taking some classes that are structured for beginners will be invaluable in giving you a solid base to work from. Tutorials are fine for building your knowledge about how to make a good grass, or how to model a chair but the fundamentals really should be taught somewhere where you can ask questions.

 

Is switching between packages a big deal or, once the concepts are known, do they operate in a similar fashion. i.e If I see myself as putting some effort in and progressing, (including deforming animations mentioned etc) do I need to start with the most advanced package in the first place?

 

Switching between packages is not going to be easy. Take the top two Max and Maya, one is used primarily for Architectural rendering and animation and the other is used for feature films. They are both capable of creating realistic renderings and animations but each one has it's own strengths and weaknesses. If you want to learn to use both of these programs then you would need to learn two different ways of working, not just the tools but the way operations are carried out. In short it wouldn’t be imposable to go between platforms but you would have to re-learn how to do things.

 

You have mentioned .dwg and .3ds file types but revit produces .rvt files. I presume 3DViz will import these files as 3D models and then I just render it there.

 

I just looked at Maxes importer and you can't import .rvt files so either Rivit must have an exporter to go to Max or you must convert it to a DWG or 3DS for Max to be able to see it. I would highly doubt that any other rendering package would support .rvt files since Autodesk and Discreet are the same company and if they don't support the file no one will.

[vizwhiz]

hi There

 

Andy

 

i use autocad, VIZ and FotoChop everyday for arch vizualisation

 

check This out

 

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?id=5106083&siteID=123112&preview=1

 

**

 

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**

 

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Related Information

• Documentation
  

**

 

from FAQ page

 

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=5106381

 

.......

Following are a few of the new features:

• Enhancements to Autodesk Revit Parametric Components: Use the Edit Loaded Families feature to edit previously loaded families in Autodesk Revit Building. Use Scheduling Nested Families to schedule the components in a nested family.
  
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**

 

we dont have Revit yet but are planning on getting sometime (soon) in the office

 

personally i started out with Accurender (well after 3ds dos) but went to VIZ as soon as i could get my hands on it

 

i hope This helps

 

Randy

[AndyThomas]

Thanks Vizwhiz and all.

 

I have just got hold of a copy of 3DViz render R3 and tried to link a .dwg. No success. It links as directed through the tutorial but not to a DWG I have just saved through revit. I will try again later. Maybe my version of revit is too new for the Viz. It says the file is corrupt, missing or may not contain valid data. Just like the missus.

 

I have also got hold of an example model made in vizrender 2005 for ADT which I can't see when trying to import into this 3DViz, I can see why training might be a good idea.

 

Am I right in thinking that you don't use a 3d model produced by revit anyway but actually produce the model to render in 3dviz itself.

Do you all produce these fabulous rendered models with windows, doors etc etc through massing in 3dViz?

You mention using accurender first. This renders the model you have produced in the CAD. So moving to 3dViz meant you had to build the model there too. Is that correct? So moving to 3dviz is because it is a much better modeller and a better renderer?

It seems like I will be producing a model twice. Revit for the working drawing package. 3DViz for the presentation drawings (unless the model can be imported). I am happy to do this if the results are good and the modelling can be done fairly quickly in 3Dviz. In fact I really want to do that, but must justify it to my bosses.

 

Andy

[vizwhiz]

hi There

 

Andy

 

i am somewhat confused, which VIZRender are you using??

 

you said:

I have just got hold of a copy of 3DViz render R3

 

is That VIZ r3 (no file-linking) or VIZRender r3 (the ADT version)??

 

**

 

i guess i am still doing it the "old-fashioned" way

i model everything in bare-bones autocad using 3d solids

 

Then file-link into VIZ 4 (or newer) = not intelligently linked

the file-link in VIZ 4 will (always) corrupt sooner Than Later

 

i use VIZ2005 at work VIZ 4 at home, its a big difference

and so far VIZ2005 has not corrupted a file-link yet. so far so good

 

some of my acad files add up to over 200 mbs linked into a VIZ project

and it is only the 1st phase of a 220 acre project that is under re-design

 

**

 

Revit is the wave of The Future, model once use many

somewhat like archicad in that all changes appear everywhere

 

consistently, always current

 

you can export to autocad to do details, but Revit people say That is not necessary, That you can use Revit ONLY

 

if you figure This out, pls let me know how it works

 

**

 

hope This helps

 

i am going to be checking into Revit more, as soon as possible

 

Randy

[AndyThomas]

Randy

 

I am at work now so can't check my Viz version. The model example I have is definitely 'Viz render for ADT' though and I can't see it when opened in the other. The 3DViz version I have must have file linking though because it is in the tutorial and works with the files as instructed, just not the dwg's I save in my Revit 7.0.

 

I am so new to this I will try and get through the rendering turorials with revit first, today if possible. Seems like it's incorporated rendering is the package I am stuck with for convenience sake.

 

Re Revit - I have gone through a number of the turorials and it seems pretty simple. The concepts are great, with the wonderful parametric capabilities that even extend to the schedules, allowing changes to be made at any point, even in the schedules, and they will be changed throughout; and the 'free' elevations and sections.

Seems simple to operate but my PC seems pretty slow with it even though I have 2GB RAM at 3.4GHz. (I fear for my new home PC which has 1GB RAM, given the file sizes you mention) I am keen to have a closer look at the 'families' part of Revit. At present we are all using the limited windows/doors etc given as standard. Families are the place to create what we actually use. You can draw details too but I have only done a small tutorial so far. In some instances it seems that if you get the initial building structure done well in the first place, the basis for the details is partly given to start with, e.g. floor junction with wall. Then we can draft over it. You won't be able to manipulate the lines that are already there though, because they are part of the model. I suspect this will be a problem when wishing to seperate elements to show others between, e.g. building paper and self adhered membrane over a window flange etc. all needing to be visible seperately.

I always find the start to be daunting and filled with confusion and just hope it's great when it comes together in the end.

I will be interested to read the Return on Investment paper you guided me to. In our office we have been given 10 hours paid, and expected 10hrs minimum of our own time to learn revit. Same for me and rendering, including the research, and I'm learning photoshop on my own. I will check out the paper to see if they have any 'hours' listed. I would be interested to see how others have fared.

 

Andy

[Richard McCarthy]

Hi Andy!

Welcome to the forum. Glad to see another Revit person here.

For you question which renderer to stick with, well, I have always hated Accurender since Revit 4.5. Its rendering quality is pretty dismal, and the only redeeming feature is the integrated plant generation system.

 

So, if your company have the spare cash, and willing to get into serious presentation side of things, then I highly recommend you to purchase another renderer. But which one to choose from?

 

Right now you have many choices... and if you don't mind waiting, there are even better choices coming up.

 

Presently, to use most of the top quality renderer, you need to buy 3DSMAX/3DSVIZ before you even purchase those renderer simply because most renderer at present are just plugin to the 3DSMAX/3DSVIZ host. It is a pity because it will set you $2000 off straight off the bat to use a software you will probably not going to use that much. (since most modeling is done in Revit) So enable to use it, first, purchase 3DSVIZ (cheaper... because it is lacking character animation capability, not general "animation" ability. You can still make fly throughs with 3DS VIZ, you just can't use character studio.) Also, Mental Ray renderer (hollywood's workhorse renderer for decades... since Terminator 2) is included with MAX/VIZ so if you intend to use just "MR", you won't need to pay extra to buy other renderer.

 

 

But ofcourse, there are other renderers in the market that produce excellent results. Normally their priced around the range of $700~800 USD and the top 4 of these renderers are : Brazil, Final Render Stage 1, VRay, and Maxwell. Presently, These renderer requires a 3DS MAX for host, but each one of them have plans to become fully independent renderer (that does not require 3DS MAX in other term) in the near future (how near I don't know...) I will list briefly what each one does :

 

 

Maxwell (http://www.maxwellrender.com) It's one of the newest renderer to date, and produce remarkable result. Just head to their gallery and you will see for yourself. It is got very few button and technical term to overcome, and it is the easiest renderer to use out of the bunch. The shortcomings of this excellent renderer is that, it is extremely slow, as slow as upto 100 times slower than other 3!! Rendering time can be in DAYS (not minutes or hours). Because it use a very new technique to produce it's rendering, expect noise in the rendering too. Personally I like the noise because it makes the rendering feel more realistic, it feels like "film grain". For the near future, it will become an independent renderer, which will not require 3DSMAX. Presently, it is already got a seperate core, and it is bridged to 3DSMAX via plugin. The maxwell team is working on making as many plugin as possible, so it is possible Revit will get a direct plugin to this extremely easy to use, and high quality renderer.

 

Brazil (http://www.splutterfish.com) - Also a very nice renderer, It is much speedier than Maxwell, but suffers lack of ease to use because of myriad of many specialised CG term requires to understand it. It is rumour it will become an independent renderer.

 

Final Render Stage 1 (http://www.finalrender.com/) Another renderer that produce very nice results, but again, suffers from the myriad of CG term used. Speed is similar to Brazil, and this one also may become independent renderer in future.

 

VRay (http://www.vrayrender.com/) Finally, the current renderer of choice for many CG arch visualiser right now. It is the fastest renderer (slightly faster than Brazil or Final render) and produce excellent results. It suffers the same fate as Brail/Final render as not an easy to use renderer, but once you know how to use it, you can just bring up preset like other renderers. The team that produce this renderer has already gotten underway to produce an independent renderer called VRay standalone (v1.5) and presently, we don't know when it will come out, but the VRay.exe is there. So, It maybe very soon.

 

My best advice to you is to try out these renderers first, before sticking to any one of them.

[Sawyer]

That was a very cool breakdown Richard. Maybe that could go into the faq section.

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

Maxwell (http://www.maxwellrender.com) It's one of the newest renderer to date, and produce remarkable result. Just head to their gallery and you will see for yourself. It is got very few button and technical term to overcome, and it is the easiest renderer to use out of the bunch. The shortcomings of this excellent renderer is that, it is extremely slow, as slow as upto 100 times slower than other 3!! Rendering time can be in DAYS (not minutes or hours). Because it use a very new technique to produce it's rendering, expect noise in the rendering too. Personally I like the noise because it makes the rendering feel more realistic, it feels like "film grain". For the near future, it will become an independent renderer, which will not require 3DSMAX. Presently, it is already got a seperate core, and it is bridged to 3DSMAX via plugin. The maxwell team is working on making as many plugin as possible, so it is possible Revit will get a direct plugin to this extremely easy to use, and high quality renderer.

 

VRay (http://www.vrayrender.com/) Finally, the current renderer of choice for many CG arch visualiser right now. It is the fastest renderer (slightly faster than Brazil or Final render) and produce excellent results. It suffers the same fate as Brail/Final render as not an easy to use renderer, but once you know how to use it, you can just bring up preset like other renderers. The team that produce this renderer has already gotten underway to produce an independent renderer called VRay standalone (v1.5) and presently, we don't know when it will come out, but the VRay.exe is there. So, It maybe very soon.

 

 

...just a couple of notes. i think maxwell now has a ligthwave, c4d, solidworks, and rhino plug-in available, as well as a mac and linux version. which places leaps and bounds in front of others in this area, even though it is leaps and bounds behind in speed.

 

also, to the best of my knowledge, vray 1.5 will not be standalone. the only stand alone i have seen fro vray is very limited, scanline has a better feature set. all of the vray beta releases have been updates and rhobust features to the current 3dmax plug-in.