Real-time Architectural Visualization

[TheQine]

I hope some one can point me towards a good scheme to use for real-time architectural visualization. I’ve already tried exporting 3ds max scenes to the half-life 2 engine source, through hammer but the main problem is that the exported geometry is not physical brushes, in other words there is no collision detection with the player model and therefore you can’t really walk on the floors and up stairs etc…there is also a max poly cap for exported scenes of aprox. 35k polygons…I’ve heard there are other game engines such as unreal 3 and cryengine with a higher poly cap and much painless export tool pipe.

 

Is anyone familiar with any other engines, games related or not, that you can export/compile to from 3ds max that would allow you to visualize your architectural scenes for both design decision taking and walkthroughs.

 

Anything that can handle arch scenes with min 100k polys, without breaking up the geometry and possibly maintain the texture maps, while at the same time having semi-decent lighting/shadows.

 

thanks in advance,

[JamesTaylor]

http://www.cgarchitect.com/vb/26756-hks-taking-rt-architecture-next-level.html

 

this thread should have some good info for you

[SandmanNinja]

Very nice!

 

Good to hear - thanks for the update, Joel.

 

I don't think Second Life is the answer - the quality is just too poor.

And the graphics for Crysis (?sp - I'm not into games) looks very impressive.

 

As for 'grunt' - I think a decision needs to be made by the client.

If they want to run around inside a virtual 2 storey house and see detail, they'll have to realise that they'll need some horsepower to do it.

 

Any time frame on the tutes?

[Joel182]

Hi Joel,

 

You're right about the source engine, IMO, Its look just isn't up to the standard of newer engines, although the enhanced source engine for Dark Messiah brings it closer to the mark.

 

And in answer to the time frame, due to MBM branching into Vray [still working hard on the Mental Ray stuff ]

This is a 4th level project at the moment, hopefully it won't be toooo long!

and with the increase in using game tech for arch viz, it may speed up.

But for now there’s no set date, but I'll keep you informed!

 

Joel

[chuck]

Joel,

 

I've been working with Crysis's editor, Sandbox2 on and off for about a month now. I really think it's an amazing way to work. When you're in the editor, all of the graphics that make crysis great are still rendered in real time, shadows, moving trees etc. It comes with a 3ds max exporter that allows you to export models and textures, with collision detection. The workflow is a little complicated getting it out of Max, but it works.

 

You can load up the model with tons of entities and it runs great...shadows and everything.

 

The real problem is that Crytek has stated that it's going to be expensive when the commercial version releases, "many times more expensive than 3ds max" is what they've claimed on one of their forums. I don't think they've release numbers yet, but I'd guess somewhere over $50,000? Crytek has also stated that they will probably create per project pricing...but that's not going to be cheap either.

 

I run Crysis on a computer I built for $1300. Q6600, 2gb ram, 8800gt. I usually get around 40 fps in the editor...fantastic when you realize what's being rendered.

 

Does anyone have pricing info for the commercial version of the UT3/HL2 engines?

 

Chuck

[rhodesy]

Same story I think. I did a module with the UT2 engine at uni a few years ago and back then I think someone found out that it was about $250,000 for a license!! Which basically means don't get too hooked on using commercial game engines just now!! They should really release Arch viz versions that sit at about $2,000 - 3,000 that don't include all the extras that we don't need but that you do need to make a game!

[TheQine]

Hi all,

 

1. I’m still confused as to whether I can import my archvis projects from max and just add a player start point, lights, and a skybox in unrealed3/sandbox and then I’m set for a walkthrough. Because I want to use the RT as a design tool, without having to go through a laborious process of remodeling any changes done to the building in the game editor. In other words are the imported objects in unrealed3/sandbox real brushes (physical objects) with collision proxies..?

 

2. Furthermore, is there a specific max poly cap for unrealed3/sandbox for the final scene and for the exported max scenes.. and is there any major difference in the workflow of exporting to unreal 2, or is there any actual differences in how unreal 2 handles exported max scenes, because I think unreal 2 would run much faster on our machines at uni.

 

3. Final question, what are the implications of using unrealed3/sandbox for educational work..?

 

4. Is there a dedicated RT architectural visualization program in the market..? I hear PYTHA is good, any ideas..?

 

thanks a mil,

yousef

[Devin Johnston]

I've been working on a training site under MBM aimed at using RT graphics for architectural Viz.

And without giving too much away I would encourage using the UT3 Engine ( or the cryengine ) to do this.

I've done quite a number of tests for the Tuts that will be developed for the site and the quality and the Interactivity is very promising!

 

I'd really like to see this; I've wanted to take advantage of gaming engines since I first played Quake. I don't understand why these companies that develop these engines don't make them available to the Arch Viz community. There is a built in market for them, if they would make the interface between the models and engine more user friendly they'd make a killing.

[SandmanNinja]

http://www.3d-palace.com has a free video tutorial on taking a model and putting it into a game engine.

 

Not true environmental modifications like Joel and MBM are doing, but it's online and free for the download.

 

Tell 'em SandmanNinja sent ya.

[WAcky]

I used to do a little free time work with hl2. You can infact make your imported models physical. Its just a matter of creating the correct entity. There are a couple of different ways of importing a model into hammer. Do some more reading and youll find out how to do it properly. Try 3dbuzz.com i recall there being some free video tutorials on making hl2 levels. I believe the source engine with its HDR will make great real time arch vis imagery. I actually remember reading and watching a video about someone who had been doing some nice arch vis work with it.

 

keep it up.

 

I hope some one can point me towards a good scheme to use for real-time architectural visualization. I’ve already tried exporting 3ds max scenes to the half-life 2 engine source, through hammer but the main problem is that the exported geometry is not physical brushes, in other words there is no collision detection with the player model and therefore you can’t really walk on the floors and up stairs etc…there is also a max poly cap for exported scenes of aprox. 35k polygons…I’ve heard there are other game engines such as unreal 3 and cryengine with a higher poly cap and much painless export tool pipe.

 

Is anyone familiar with any other engines, games related or not, that you can export/compile to from 3ds max that would allow you to visualize your architectural scenes for both design decision taking and walkthroughs.

 

Anything that can handle arch scenes with min 100k polys, without breaking up the geometry and possibly maintain the texture maps, while at the same time having semi-decent lighting/shadows.

 

thanks in advance,

[Hazdaz]

I am a little confused...

 

You guys mention using Sandbox, but then say that it might cost about $50k... so what's the deal? Is it a demo version that you guys are using now? Or a beta version? Doing a search of it, I get inundated with hits for the game, which makes it tough getting a straight answer.

[Joel182]

I am a little confused...

 

You guys mention using Sandbox, but then say that it might cost about $50k... so what's the deal? Is it a demo version that you guys are using now? Or a beta version? Doing a search of it, I get inundated with hits for the game, which makes it tough getting a straight answer.

 

Hi,

 

The versions of the editors that we are using are not betas or demos, but they actualy come with the game or can be downloaded and they are, for all intents and purposes the engine.

The only differance is that you don't get the source code for the engine and you can't make games and sell them.

 

hope this clears that up for you

 

Joel

[TheQine]

thank you all for the help,

 

btw is there any engine that can compile its scenes into a self-executable file (a "to go" package for the client)..?

 

yousef

[Dave Buchhofer]

there are a few, i might suggest you look into Quest3D or Unity3D for the more budget minded (but still expandable) interactive work.

[TheQine]

Thanks Dave,

 

Not to sound too picky, but isn't there something similar to Unity3D for the pc (its mac only), It seems to be exactly what I’m looking for and quite affordable…

 

Thanks again,

Yousef

[taran0]

hi

 

very interesting as i'm doing my masters thesis on realtime arch viz.

 

i was going to use the unreal 3 engine as I've used the previous versions and can easily make interactive movements and triggers etc.

 

another program that i am looking at is called quest 3d and it stands up really well against the 50-750k game engine licenses. http://www.quest3d.com/

 

its about £3-£10k depending on which version you want and it looks pretty good. Im hoping to post some examples soon.

 

as to the first post about collisions, it depends in most game engines you have to also create an additional simple collision mesh to include in the export, unreal 3 will automatically create a collision mesh in the editor for you, but only a simple one, you do have the option of creating one yourself too.

 

taran

[Halestorm]

I have been using the Unity3d engine on my Mac Pro and I can say it's a very nice product. It recently became available for Windows so its now set for primetime. It's probably one of the easiest and most stable to use along with Quest3D or Torque. I am using it to explore realtime for landscape architecture/urban design in my thesis project. Unless you have the mega budget of HKS and buy a Unreal3 or Crysis2 engine/editor you can't go wrong with Unity3D. I encourge anyone interested to download the Avert Fate demo from the unity3d website and get a taste of its graphics capabilities. My only quib is that Speedtree is not supported as of yet and the engine can't utilize multiple GPU's, otherwise it's great. As for workflow there is a bit of transition designing for realtime vs animation or stills. In realtime the majority of detail comes from bump maps as opposed to geometry in arch viz. It's difficult for some architects or other designers to change their modeling habits to optimize it for the game engine. This is why HKS decided to go with Unreal3 so it could just import its Revit models into Max, texture them and send them to Unreal3 without having to make it low poly like a game developer would. For it to work for them they needed to buy a custom made gaming PC to render their scenes with a decent frame rate. Buying a +$6000 gaming PC on top of a six figure Unreal3 license might be difficult for most viz professionals. If you plan on developing your realtime content for use on your client's computers which could be a simple IBM laptop then you will have to convert your high poly models to low poly in order for them to view it on the engine. Another neat advantage to that is you can create a game for use on Unity3d's web player that will play in anyone's browser as long as the computer has decent graphics capability (even recent integrated graphics cards will do). I have found that it works very well on simple stuff and is a great way to do communicate your prelim work via the web. FYI, I am not affiliated with Unity3D just a satisfied customer.

Edited March 26, 2009 by Halestorm

[Dave Buchhofer]

Another perk of unity is that they have a very active and helpful community, and have actual developer presence on their user forums, (Think vray'ish support model.)

 

And yea, they just released the windows versions~

[taran0]

thats very interesting halestorm

 

i came from a gaming background before i got into viz so i've always stuck to modelling efficiently and as low poly as possible. which worked out great as it meant that renders went a lot faster. so the eventual trend towards realtime is great for me.

 

I was really interested in the unity 3d engine really liked how it could play in a web browser only problem is i dont have access to mac. a pc version means i'm defo going to check it out.

 

I have been checking out crysis which is amazing for exterior environments and landscaping but not so great for interiors, and the new version crysis warhead has been updated to run more efficiently so you dont need a heavy uber pc to run it. You dont need that heavy a spec to run it. The plugin support for max is good also

 

I have been using the Torque engine which is good and Quest 3D is prob going to be the one I use.

 

taran

[Halestorm]

One neat thing about Unity3D is that is handles the native files of the several 3D apps, .max included. This makes it easy to edit files in Unity3D, just double click on your model in it will open in the app it was created in, edit it, then save it. When you go back to Unity3D it updates automatically. What sold me on Unity over Torque and Quest3D was the testimonials of how it was much more artist friendly and less buggy. Developers cite how much more productive they have become using the engine. The documentation and example projects are very helpful along with the community and wiki. Many scripts are already available so for arch viz coding isn't really necessary unless you want to build your own GUI or write your own shader. And yes, I do see the developers regularly on the forum.

[Dave Buchhofer]

yea, i'm jealous, i'm spending a lot of time in virtools at the moment maintaining an older application and finding it to be just painful after toying with the unity asset pipelines.