Let's in-source our projects!!!

[Ernest Burden III]

I'm not trying to set a number, just see what the market will support for a domestic supplier. The rate for one person is one thing, but I'm looking at times when studios would need a dozen so that two weeks of linear work can be delivered in a few days without the need for constant monitoring. That adds value above the actual hourly rate. Is there a market for this?

[Russell Thomas]

Pretty cool topic the outsourcing discussion going on right now is very interesting as well. I guess if one started this you would have to have either operation capital to start or a group of artist realizing that they are trying to create something and willing to wait for payment until work was finished and client paid, or would it be more Laissez-faire and each artist works directly with the Client and the studio was just a banner to rally under and an identity for possible clients to identify with and contact for recruitment? How do you see it working?

Is it possible to have at least one provider of foundational arch-vis services within the US/Europe that can address the capacity and speed issues?

Good idea Ernest and you seem to have a very good and realistic perspective on the issue. What I don't quite get though is how using people in Europe isn't outsourcing? Categorizing who and who isn't outsourcing if not by country alone is treading on a dangerous slope in my opinion.

Hey you know I have a domain for you! LOL

Some very valid points Ernest. Do you still work on your own as a freelancer or am I right in thinking you now have your own company, or are part of a company?.

You don't know whoe Ernest is? http://www.acmedigital.com/ comes from architectural deliniation 'Blue Blood'

I've always been tickled by those entrepreneurs who profess a love for laissez-faire capitalism, but who somehow always forget that the governing force of capitalism is competition, and end up bitching about that. As well, arguing about jobs 'here' versus jobs 'there' risks confusing patriotism with nationalism, always a very dangerous exercise.
-Ian

I imagine they are complaining about a government that is bloated beyond all recognition, continually getting bigger feeding on the blood and sweat of middle class America, putting it's nose into everything possible so that it can continually grow and justify its existence. No need for them to get involved, especially if they don't treat every one equal, we are screwed by unfair trade with other countries, China being one of the biggest culprits. If you are going to butt in, then treat all parties equally, and definitely don't screw your own country over.

I have nothing against China, my point being our government forces our hand and allows other countries unfair advantage when trading with us, of course the Walmarts of the world are going to take advantage of this and the guy on the street is going to shop at Walmart because he can save a buck and he needs to because of the taxes he is paying for things like putting Ethopian students through college here in the US or his factory job just got outsourced to another country.... I am all for "free trade", that means "free of government" as well. Of course they will be involved to some extent, rediculous to think otherwise, but in a small governing role would be my preference, not a micro-managing bully.

I know there are lots of views on all of this but I truly believe our government is a gluttonist monster screwing middle class America big time. It needs to be about 20 percent of the size it is now, then our tax dollars could be spent on law enforcement and infrastructure and not on some government employees twiddling their thumbs. IMHO

I definitely don't believe in isolationalism, but I do believe the corporate sector runs things much more efficiently than our government ever could. Capitalism is successful under fair competition, or unfair in favor of the capitalist, I would settle for just plain fair

Ernest,
Based on your recount of experience and a smattering of common sense I hope, for this organization to be successful and offer competitive rates, it would be composed of mostly low to mid skill level individuals to perform modeling and preliminary scene set up and then the artist or firm contracting them would work their magic to make it match their studio style and take advantage of their own in house expertise?

P.S. I love these types of topics, I can spew some opinionated rant and then someone else comes back with an opinion different from mine but with merit and I can say hey, I can see that and then it modifies my views to some extent.

[maria prem]

i guess i am not invited to this party huh ! ...

[Andrew Lynn]

...
I definitely don't believe in isolationalism, but I do believe the corporate sector runs things much more efficiently than our government ever could. Capitalism is successful under fair competition, or unfair in favor of the capitalist, I would settle for just plain fair

Didn't you just run around in a big circle? People get screwed because stuff from overseas is too cheap. Which hasn't always been the case, or not nearly to this extent - the cheapness of these international transactions has increased as government interference in trade has decreased.

This has allowed the corporate sector, including manufacturing, services, etc., to outsource everything possible to countries with lower labor costs.

...which has screwed the people who used to do those jobs here. So we lament that government regulates too much, while at the same time lamenting that government regulates too little. Talk about how it's great that the corporate sector does things so much more cheaply while criticizing the mechanisms that make everything so cheap.

The whole thing isn't sustainable. Not being a macroeconomist, I'll leave it to others to figure out how to fix it.

[Russell Thomas]

I am not an economist and do not have the answers. In my un-enlightened state I would say that the governements job in the most general of definitions would be to make competition fair, not on price, but if another country taxes and tariffs heavily stuff from our country then we do the same to theirs. If with equal trade structures they can produce the product of equal quality cheaper then I think they deserve the 'Sale' so to speak, I have no problem with that. In fact that is the "Fair" I was asking for.

It really doesn't matter what is fair and right if a government is involved geo-politics are going to be involved, trade is just another tool of leverage for countries and just the way it is. We can still express what we would like to see and realize that reality isn't going to let that happen

[Chad Keller]

The idea of developing a company with many free-lancers working collectively to compete for larger jobs seems like a great idea. I think it has the potential to create competition as an alternative to lower-priced overseas companies.

How formal would it really have to be? Could we develop some loose network among the people on the boards? I'm curious to know how many people take advantage of the community we have here when it comes to working on larger projects?

[Alex Fields]

Hey TheAllusionist, I know who Ernest is, I am just trying to find out his current set up, as I know recently he was looking to hire people. Basically I am wondering if he has changed from freelancer to the owner of a business which could completely change his opinion of outsourcing and the so called idea of "in-sourcing".
When you work for a company as I do you don't like the sound of outsourcing or so called "in-sourcing", as it can have negative repercussions to our jobs. With the idea of insourcing this would mean that there would be less call for low end guys within the workplace. I really think it has been heading that way for a long time. Companies will have a core of high end guys in-house to do the finishing, allowing quality control to be maintained. The lower end work will be farmed out either domestically or abroad. Ernest brings up a very good point as to whether a U.S company could compete for this lower end work. I think they could, of course they would be more expensive but if they could build up a reliable reputation it could work.

[Cecil Cortez]

Just a thought. I wonder what would be everybody's reaction if this type of business gets regulated?

What if our respective countries, architecture firms or the AIA ( or whatever organization you have ) came up with a consensus to give their work to only accredited 3D visualization companies whether they local or in overseas? Let's say they set up guidelines to only hire people with degrees in architecture, certified copies of software, firm size, etc. Even fees are regulated. This would eliminate all the unfair practices and resorting to unethical conducts in business. This business is becoming cut throat and dirty by the minute. The fees are getting ridiculous and the expectations much much higher. It is not as good as before.

[Russell Thomas]

Hidden_Pixel
I understand your concern, it is similar to the concern of the freelancer when they hear that the trend is for archvis to become in house, all relative to your particular situation. As Ernest stated, he has been guilty of working on remedial stuff at times. I had to come to grips with a similar notion, one can outsource things like modeling and capitalize on cheap labor force or one can allow artist to work on the project from start to finish, having 'Ownership' of work, not in legal terms but in a personal relationship with the project. This leads to pride in ones work. IMHO I would rather allow the artist to work from start to finish if possible and have some responsibilty for it. I realize that I may have to change down the road to be competitive, but we would rather all be 'RockStars' in the studio and do it all rather than a structured system. So this service probably wouldn't interest me, but then again we are relatively new (3DA Studio) and work keeps coming it, I may have to re-think this down the road, but for now I am going to hang on to my ultruistic ideals

[Russell Thomas]

Just a thought. I wonder what would be everybody's reaction if this type of business gets regulated?

What if our respective countries, architecture firms or the AIA ( or whatever organization you have ) came up with a consensus to give their work to only accredited 3D visualization companies whether they local or in overseas? Let's say they set up guidelines to only hire people with degrees in architecture, certified copies of software, firm size, etc. Even fees are regulated. This would eliminate all the unfair practices and resorting to unethical conducts in business. This business is becoming cut throat and dirty by the minute. The fees are getting ridiculous and the expectations much much higher. It is not as good as before.

On a similar note, we were going to start contracting out a long time online friend of mine from Italy. It ended up that they are so highly regulated (he is an architect that has something to do with it I guess, even though he isn't working in the field of architecture currently) that he couldn't work with us because any work agreement he enters into has to be by hourly wages, he must maintain complete ownership of work and Italy had to be the legal jurisdiction of the project in the case of any legal disputes. This my understanding when working with him and going over contracts, I am not an expert on the subject and there could be some translational mis-understandings on my part. But needless to say he can't work with us because I couldn't abide by all his enforced stipulations.

So I would say if things got to regulated it would end up like the scenario I just outlined unless it was one international identity that did the regulation, otherwise national organizations would try to maintain control and leverage, I would think.

The having a seal or something that showed on your site indicating that you had been reviewed and are using legal software could be interesting but if that was done it should be by the software industry, I don't want my taxes increased so that the government could get involved! LOL

I apologize for hijacking this thread.

I think Ernest 'InSource' company could be set up as an LLC s-corporation and all the artist sign a contract that states they are independant contractors working on a 'per job' basis to alleviate employee taxes if they worked on their own projects from time to time. As stated earlier the business structure has to make a decision, does management handle correspondence and delegation or is the client assigned an artist and all collaboration handled by the two of them from then on? The first scenario requires a lot of management resources while the second doesn't allow control or standardized services and procedures.

The second scenario should have lower overhead and be more likely to compete price wise as I see it. Has anyone else thought about the actual business structure?