3rd World Memorandum

[Archmage]

It has come to my attention whilst browsing through the final comments section of the survey that the outsourcing to 3rd world countries is quite an issue with a lot of you. I feel that those of us who harbor these sort of negative feelings are maybe not considering all the facts. (before I continue – I agree that software piracy is a problem that threatens us all.)

 

I myself am a third world citizen, and although I could carry on and on about how an average 3d software package costs about 20 times our average monthly wage and how tertiary education is a privilege where I live, I will take it for granted that this has been said by others already – and noted. There is another much more important point that I believe is being overlooked by people who form an opinion about this topic.

 

It is remarkable for me to see how many first world professionals (especially from the US) have a problem with outsourcing to 3rd world countries. Remarkable because of the fact that most of my software/hardware, is purchased from 1st world countries (especially the US). It astounds me that people mean to suggest that its OK for me too wake up, drink my Nescafe, shave with my Gillette, put on my Nike’s, get in my Ford, light a Stuyvesant with my Zippo on the way whilst listening to my Panasonic car radio, have a MacDonalds breakfast, check my calls on my Nokia, sit at my desk in front of my Mecer/HP/AMD/LG/Samsung machine running my MICROSOFT/Discreet/Autodesk/Adobe software as long as I don’t endeavor to use any of these items to obtain work from a first world country. This is truly astounding. You only have to go to the homepage of this website to see the results of 1st world marketing.

 

3rd world countries support 1st world countries to a much larger extent than visa versa. 3rd world countries did not start globalization, 1st world countries did. They did it for reasons they deemed to be beneficial to themselves. Now that the 3rd world countries also want to benefit from this, it seems as though some of them mean to close the door on us. These type of double standards could be could be given a name. Some might call it exploitation. I won’t. But some might.

 

We all have things that make our lives more challenging. Some have more and harder challenges than others. To some losing a project might mean that they have to buy a smaller second car, to some, loosing a project might mean that they have to look for another place to stay.

 

We are all fortunate that we work in an industry where your quality is your final product. It can be seen directly in the work you do.

 

Rather focus on yourself and push yourself to be as good as you possibly can and applaud the success of your piers, for their success is your challenge that would lead to your growth. Herein lays true fulfillment.

 

We are all adversaries … not enemies.

Sincerely

ArchMage – South Africa

[Ernest Burden III]

I myself am a third world citizen...It astounds me that people mean to suggest that its OK for me too wake up, drink my Nescafe, shave with my Gillette, put on my Nike’s, get in my Ford, light a Stuyvesant with my Zippo on the way whilst listening to my Panasonic car radio, have a MacDonalds breakfast, check my calls on my Nokia, sit at my desk in front of my Mecer/HP/AMD/LG/Samsung machine running my MICROSOFT/Discreet/Autodesk/Adobe software as long as I don’t endeavor to use any of these items to obtain work from a first world country. – South Africa

 

A truely profound observation. Thank you for saying it.

 

I look at 'outsourcing' as expoitation, but if I were to pay the provider what I would pay someone in the US then I am not expoiting them. The next hurdle is nationalistic protectionism. I feel some of it, I must confess, and I do not know the answer. The issue has been around for a long time with products, but its fairly new in information (which includes modeling and rendering) because of the internet.

 

I haven't looked at the survey results yet. It will be interesting...

[Videha]

agreed 100 %

 

also i am now in Australia i lived and Worked

20 Years in India and you have my totall Unterstanding

for your Situation Do we Complain about Dirt cheep

computers manufactured in Asia "No"

 

so its good to get a little Broader Perspective on our

Financial Worries

We have some of the most exiting Jobs there is and Fun

 

Cheers Videha

[jtiscareno]

I am in total agreement with you Jack. I especially like your description of a typical day in a 3rd world country (having myself move to the US from Mexico).

 

And it is a double standard that you hear not only in our small niche but it is even in the current discussion of the US presidental race.

 

And the argument of some (or the majority) that it is exploitation, what about when we ourselves undercut the competition in order to get the job. Is that being called "exploitation". Like you said, let the work talk for itself and if a client likes it and wants to pay you for it, good.

 

We live in a democaratic and CAPITALIST country and the esence of capitalisim is market driven, and if somebody in another country does a comparable but less expensive job than someone in here, then I am sorry but the market will dictate what happens, just like it happnes with cars. Japan started building at first cheap cars then they got extremly good at it and now they are not that cheap but they are excellent and people buy them in droves in the US, but there is a niche for german, italian, british, korean, etc. And again it is all market driven. The customer has the final word in CAPITALISIM.

 

It is very hipocritical that all of a sudden people in the US cry, "exploitation", it is a double standard argument.

 

Demand and Offer, basic principal of capitalisim.

[Iain Denby]

Sometimes you read or hear things which totally alters your perception and perspective on something...it's just happened!

 

Thank you. I'm going to read it again and absorb it once more.

[4DM]

Hi Jack,

 

You make some good points about consumerism and the reverse flow of global wealth, and good luck to you in finding clients wherever in the world you like.

 

But don't anyone ever believe that the "1st world" companies employing "3rd world" services, labour, resources, whatever..are doing it to help anyone in the third world, improve their life.

 

They are simply finding ever cheaper suppliers, and usually pocketing the considerable savings themselves - and while they may benefit you, they are just depriving someone else. So 'Jack' wins and 'Joe' loses. That's life, but it forms no basis for a robust principle of economic justice.

 

US/Euro based 'Joe' is also a worker like any of us, and also has a mortgage to pay, kids to feed, etc etc, so robbing Peter to pay Paul for the benefit of a property development corporation's profits is just raw capitalism, red in tooth and claw.

 

Corporations nowadays are footloose, they have no loyalty to any of us...we are just pawns in the globalisation game, and rest assured that when SA, Argentina and China get too pricey - they'll just move along to Vietnam,Phillippines,Kenya...wherever.

 

It goes to prove how dangerous it is, in this economy, to try to compete on price alone.

 

Regards,

 

Danny.

[Archmage]

Good points and i agree with what you say. Especially the pawns part. And if we get too expensive and they want to look for someone else so be it. What I am trying to say is if you are good enough, you will never be unemployed and one shouldn't now all of a sudden try and change the rules of the game to suite you just because its getting a little harder.

 

"dont try and change the rules of the game, become a better player"

 

I am a white South African male. After my countrie's checkered past and process of reformation, it is very hard to get work as a white South African male. I am sick and tired of people around me, like my friends, wining about - "its not fair, afirmative action, reverse discrimination blah blah." Those people had it hard for 30 years now surely you can stomache a bit of a challenge. Its similar to our topic. The way i feel is ... stop wining, get off your b-hind, use the good education you have, and become as good as you can in something.

 

I know its not always easy, but such is life.

 

Thanx for the comments guys.

 

Render on!

---------------

Create Creation

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

there are definitely 2 sides to this argument. i live in the U.S. i enjoy doing this work. you live in South Africa. you enjoy doing this work. you can do the work for a fraction of the cost i can, because your overall cost of living is less. the corporation, looking to save money, outsourcers the job to you . that is the nature of business in general. you make your money, and can feed your family, and pay your bills. good for you. good for the business.

 

....but the company that outsourced the work to you constructs bridges. they got a multi-million dollar contract from the state to build a bridge in a fancy downtown area. the bridge is being paid for with taxpayer money. i pay my federal taxes, i pay my state taxes, i pay my sales tax, ect.. ect... i helped pay for that bridge that is being built.

 

i work in the visualization field. the company needs someone to do a rendering of the bridge to show the public and the city. i submit my proposal, and you submit your proposal. our work is equally good, but your work cost 1/10 what my work does. the company goes with you to improve their bottom line. i was also counting on that job to feed my family and to pay my bills, but i can not compete.

 

i can not pay my bills if i offer a price that is competitive to yours. yes, i can take the challenge to get better, but even if i wound up twice as good as you, 1/10th the cost will likely win out when it comes to something as trivial as a rendering.

 

i understand that i am lucky to live in the U.S., and that i have more immediate resources than what you do. ...but why should this make me give up something i enjoy doing? likewise, i understand that you don't want to give up something that you enjoy doing either. we are in competition for the same work.

 

so the U.S. continues to outsource jobs to cheap labor in other countries, regardless of the field. somewhere along the way there is going to be a breaking point. at what point have you outsource to the extent that their are not enough jobs for the people here, so they can not afford the goods that are being produced by corporation who outsourced the job. since the company can not sell the goods, they can not make a profit. maybe they go under, maybe they don't. it depends on how rich they were to start, and what type of goods they sell.

 

....on the other hand, products produced by outsourcing are cheaper than those produced by in the U.S.. therefore, more people can afford to buy the goods here, and have a better life for themselves. ....but again, remember the breaking point. at what point do they no longer have a job, because all of the jobs went elsewhere.

 

we are living in a different time than the past. it is a global market. ...but the game of big business is to make more money at what you are doing, by doing it cheaper, and just as good as your competitor. as mentioned above, if the pay was equal on both fronts, then the competition would be equal, and i would not be arguing against outsourcing.

 

regardless of what you may think, i am a very open minded, liberal individual. outsourcing is not necessarily a bad thing, but it has to be done in a certain manner. otherwise it only benefits the rich getting richer.

 

bottom line. i want the job just like you. no one in the U.S. is getting rich doing arch. vis.. if i lose the job, i have to come up with another means of paying my bills. if you lose the job, you have to come up with another means to pay your bills.

 

i will stop rambling, i am not sure anything i wrote makes sense anyway.

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

basically what i was trying to stay, is outsorucing is a two way street. it has major implications on both sides. good and bad.

[Archmage]

Basically - the original point i was trying to make is that our third world countries support 1st world industries to a greater extent than the other way around.

 

More money is coming in to the US from 3rd world countries than out too 3rd world countries. I mean seriously how many 3rd world companies do you have in your home town. We have hundreds of 1st world companies here in my town. Its called multi national companies and the 1st world have most of them. Our companies here has been competing with 1st world companies for decades. Now the internet has given us a shot at your market.

 

I think where we will get at, if we talk about it long enough, is too a hand full of individuals which has a 3rd of the world's money leaving us to fight over the scraps.

 

There might be a braking point - or - there might be a gradual movement towards economical equality amongst countries. To something like a single unified currency. Its not unforseeable.

 

Its funny that if you think about it philosophically, the irony is that capitalism might one day create the level of equality which is the ideal of socialism. = Country gets richer - higher cost of living - ask more for your product - loose the job to somebody who'll do it for less - they get richer - higher cost of living - they ask more for theyr product - they loose job to someone else - ect.

 

Anyways the only reason for the original post was to make 1st world citizens attent to the fact that they get much more support from 3rd world countries than us from them and that we have beencompeting with their companies for a long time.

 

cheers

 

----------------

Create Creativity

Sell Equality

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

many of the project posts on this board come from 3rd world countires, and the honestly, on average, the work is superior to the average work that is produced in the U.S. when it comes to arch. vis.. i am still trying to figure out why that is. it might be that more people in the U.S. have access to computers, so amatures are more likely to post here than in other countries, where you might only have access to a computer if you are trained proffessionally in computer or art. it might be that the majority of the quality U.S. 3d artist choose to find work in L.A. or Hollywood, where movie and commercial special effects are king of the hill. there is no denying that special effects is where the glamour is in the 3d industry. ...not in arch. vis..

 

i am in doubt that in any foreseeable future there will be a universal currency. the Euro has gained amazing ground in such a short period of time, but even countries within that system can not agree on it. from what i see, many countries join against there better judgement. someone may correct me if i am wrong, afterall, i don't live there, and my knowledge of what is really happening is limited to U.S. news, and a couple of web sites. which as we know often bend what they are saying to puch there own agenda.

 

i find your statement about the U.S. getting more support from third world countries than third world countried getting from the U.S. interesting. i am not saying it is not true, but interesting, and actually difficult to put into terms that just include commercial goods. even at commercial goods, many of the companies in the U.S. have companies in third world countires for the very reasons that we already discussed. ...bussiness is about making money, and to make money there has to be a demand for a product. if their is a demand for one a U.S. product in your country, then by nature of business, the company will push to get that product into your country so they can make a profit. supply and demand. because the U.S. is in general a wealthy country, a lot of people want things that are U.S.. even if they are inferior to the same product that is developed in your country. the U.S. does not control all markets by far. 20 years ago japan came into the U.S., and turned our auto market upside down. it was actually a great thing. the U.S. auto makers had a product that they controlled. because of the way america is designed we are relaint on cars. we can not live without them. the u.s. car manufactures made a product that they new would break down in 10 years. this meant the people had to buy new cars, and ass weboth know, cars are not cheap. they were taking adavantage of the situation they had. the japanese were able to break into the u.s. auto market by selling superior quality car for less money. the japanese cars lasted twice as long. the u.s. companies had to change the way they operated. they needed to build better quality cars, and convince the people that there product was better quality than the japanese. only in recent years has the quality of u.s. cars become level with the quality of japanese cars. and in the meantime, japanese cars improved their image, and now sell for more than the standard u.s. car. if you want a deal on a car now, your buy a chevy or ford, not a honda or toyota.

 

the reason i was rambling on about that is that, while some of the money generated by the japanese auto market stays in the U.S., the executive level positions are still held by japan. ...and the money goes back to japan. even though there economy has been in the crapper for a couple of years now. a similar comparison can be made with electronics.

 

while the U.S. is king of the hill right now, whether you respect what we are doing or not, all empires fall eventually. the u.s. is greedy, and has been for a long time. eventually that will catch up with us, and someoen else will take the lead. look at how many huge empires have fallen throughout history.

 

granted, it is not likely that we will see the fall, it will happen eventually. history typically repeats itself.

[GaryR50]

Interesting observations. I can only comment, from my own experience, on the architectural field, though. Those who do 3D in this field are not seeking "glamour," nor do they consider themselves "3D artists." Their primary interest is in architecture, as that is usually where their training lies, and 3D graphics is only a tool for acheiving their goals; i.e., the design of buildings. No one gets into architecture to do CGI. It's not at all the same as the motion picture industry. Even where 3D is concerned, the tools, techniques and aims of these two respective industries differs greatly.

 

Gary

[4DM]

Crazy HG,

 

Your point about who will buy the goods in a wealthy country if we are all unemployed is one of my favourites.

 

I often find myself illustrating residential developments where the apartments will sell for £400,000>£1,000,000+ and yet clients will haggle over the sake of a few hundred pounds for the visuals which are instrumental in selling these flats.

 

If we are haggled down to the point of unprofitability, or worse, left unemployed due to cheap overseas competition, who, here, will be left to buy those apartments?

 

Only the already wealthy, who continue to increase that wealth by the "buy to let" mania that is sweeping this country.

 

So the gap between rich and poor widens. Globalisation is there mainly to benefit corporations, their directors and shareholders. They wouldn't be doing it otherwise!

 

D.

[salf]

Im from a 3rd world country also (i dont quite like that tag, tho) and I was looking at the surveys results, but i dont find such thing as a "concern" about the topic in discussion, statistically speaking.

 

Actually, it appears to be an increase on the job market and not a decrease, im gonna post some of the surveys results about this matter:

------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTE: Since the PDF is protected i cant "copy and paste", so im gonna write all over, however, this is kinda an effort (english is not my main language) so im gonna skipped some info, im just gonna post the 2 highest results ( % ) and i wont add the info on how many ppl answered and how many skipped)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

31 How many people have been added to your company or department in the last 12 months to accomodate for an increase in your architectural marketing or visualization work?

 

0 12%

1-2 14%

 

 

 

32 How many people have been laid off to your company or department in the last 12 months to accomodate for an decrease in your architectural marketing or visualization work?

 

0 27%

1-2 2%

 

 

 

33 How many people you anticipate will be added to your company or department in the next 12 months to accomodate for an increase in your architectural marketing or visualization work?

 

0 9%

1-2 17%

 

 

 

34 How many people you anticipate will be laid off to your company or department in the next 12 months to accomodate for an decrease in your architectural marketing or visualization work?

 

0 8%

1-2 0%

 

 

35 How many people you anticipate will be added to your company or department in the next 5 years to accomodate for an increase in your architectural marketing or visualization work?

 

1-4 18%

5-9 6%

 

 

33 How many people you anticipate will be laid off to your company or department in the next 12 months to accomodate for an decrease in your architectural marketing or visualization work?

 

0 2%

1-4 0%

[luckytohaveher]

I am a FIRST-WORLDER!!! We own everything!!! You are our slaves!!! Bow to our economic suppression!!!

 

Please... I live in the U.S. and am of Irish, Welsh, English, German, and American Indian descent. My great-great-great grandfather came to the U.S. in a coffin boat from Ireland to escape the potato famine. It is just a matter of where you are in the timeline. England's industrial base was killed when the U.S. spun up its industrial machine 150-200 years ago. Now we are getting our turn from China, India, and all the rest. Everyone has their self-interest at heart so they act in kind as soon as possible.

 

The U.S. has no underwear or shoe factories left. In five years, the same will be true for rendering. When you cross globalism with Moore's law and a little help from the G.I. software it is just OVER for U.S. based rendering... You might as well go make gold-plate toothbrushes. There is NO need for rendering to be done here -- so it won't be.

 

I just left the business for good! I am getting paid much more to think and manage versus struggling with polygons, lighting, and mapping for 16 hours at a cost basis of $1600.

 

I had fun -- but until we fall back down or they catch-up it is simply too expensive to do in the U.S.

 

Thanks for shopping... Enjoy Coke, Just do it, CNN, its all the same -- profit, profit, profit... They use us all for economic gain. Of course, where would the world be today without ADM (Archer Daniels Midland)? Starving you see...

[Bhanu]

Jack

 

Most of points rised by you are very logical and agreeable. Outsourcing is irreversible phenomenon whatever the issues are rised. History is evidently shows that first world power controlled third world. Now it is their turn.

I am from India living in Middle East for better money and I know how many of our very crafted artisions lost their jobs because of western and modern technologies.

No debates of loosing jobs would help untill unless third world gives at high quality output using licenced softwares (as you rightly said all software we buy 10 times more affordable than our salaries which is making first world richer and richer).

Finally what I want to share is all about "time" which can make everything possible and I should appreciate your perception in understanding outsourcing concepts.

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

bhanusri... i never considered the jobs your country lost due to cheap imitation products that companies here in the u.s. create, then export the work to another third world country to have the product built. even if the work for the product being built is exported to your country, the person who has the production job will probably not earn as much as the artisan did, and he definitely will not have the same satisfaction with his product.

 

although i don't really think 3d work belongs to anyone. computers are a recent thing, and there does not seem to be a certain style of rendering that matches up with a region or country. NPR renderings don't only happen in New York, and beautiful photo real renderings don't only happen in Atlanta.

 

in my opinion, the biggest part of the market that is unfair is not whether or not the jobs are exported, it is the pay difference between who is doing the job. which is linked to your argument about you not being able to purchase the software you need because you can not afford it on the pay you get. it is all a vicious circle. the reason the jobs would be exported from the u.s. in this case is that you are a lower cost than having the work done in the u.s.. so you don't make enough money to buy the software because of this. but if you charge more for your service, then companies here are less likely to hire you for a job, when one, some one in another country will do it cheaper than you, or the company will except that is what the have to pay for the service, and just hire joe, who grew up in the same town with the CEO of the company.

 

it is a circle that is difficult to break or solve.

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

but on second thought the problem isn't the same as the 3rd world artisans product being produced by companies in the u.s.. the problem is companies in the u.s. exporting the job to produce a product to a third world country.

 

a recent example that was in the radio flyer wagon. it is an all american product. it was produced in chicago for years. last month the company exported the job of producing the wagons to china. the original product was not a knock off from another country. it is something that was created in our country, had our contries history, but is not produced in another country because the labor is cheaper, and the company will make a larger profit because of this.

[Greg Steckler]

But then you have Harley-Davidson...where sometimes a USED Harley sells for more than a new one. What do you think would happen if they moved that company out of the USA?

 

And I'm not so sure about who is supporting who. Our trade deficit with the world is something like 6 trillion dollars. Wal-Mart is one of the most successful companies in America and I'll bet there isn't 10% of the stuff in there made in the US. Consumers demand cheap goods....price rules most of the time. Just my 2 cents

[Archmage]

Phew.

Allot of replies. I was merely trying to bring to people attention that there is more to this issue than just plain 1st world professionals loosing their jobs to 3rd world counterparts. As one can see by the variety of replies that point is well understood.

 

To Salf: I'm not talking about the survey results I’m talking about the comments people could make on the last section.

 

“I can not pay my bills if I offer a price that is competitive to yours. yes, I can take the challenge to get better, but even if I wound up twice as good as you, 1/10th the cost will likely win out when it comes to something as trivial as a rendering.”

If I quote a client 1/10 of what you do I will be out of business. It’s more like 80%. I am already doing modelling for a rock bottom price of 500 dollars per house. And interestingly I don't have any overseas clients.

 

 

"left unemployed due to cheap overseas competition, who, here, will be left to buy those apartments?" -

We have a 30% unemployment rate and we are the best in Africa so forgive me if I am not too compassionate about your situation. Maybe people will start living in cheaper apartments?

Only the already wealthy, who continue to increase that wealth by the "buy to let" mania that is sweeping this country.

"So the gap between rich and poor widens. Globalisation is there mainly to benefit corporations, their directors and shareholders. They wouldn't be doing it otherwise!"

- Exactly my point - and - The rich mostly resides in 1st world countries where most of these corporations are.

 

“Those who do 3D in this field are not seeking "glamour," nor do they consider themselves "3D artists."

My only qualification is a Fine Arts degree.

 

 

I am impressed by the level of insight most of us have, 1st world and 3rd world of our current global situation. I think what most of us 3rd worlders wanted is that the 1st worlders also understand our environment and situation. We are bombarded with the happenings in 1st world countries and I believe the same is not true for the reverse.

 

In my country I believe we had a great micro example of something similar. For those of you that don’t know, the African people in South Africa were oppressed by the white Africans for 30 years until the end of 1994. We have just celebrated 10 years of democracy and we are probably the youngest democracy in the world. Within those 30 years Black people (I use the term black because I believe even though I am white, that I am very much African) were not allowed to vote and had many cruel restrictions placed on them. I won’t go into to much detail but the relevant point is that they had very little access to proper education and almost no chance of a decent employment opportunity.

In current South Africa power has been (for the last 10 years) back in the hands of all the people. We are still left with a huge I inequality though.

I think there are many similarities between the white/black people in my country and 1st/3rd world countries. Humor me with the analogy. (South Africa is the world)

I live in an area that would be upper middle class even in the most 1st world of countries. The avrg house size is about 300 sqm, your avrg family has 2 cars of which one would at least be a BMW or some sort of Landcruiser jobby. The older generation of past are still living off the fruits of their previous exploitation. It is very different for their children though. As a white South African male it is virtually impossible to get a job. This is because it is the government’s policy to re-equalise things in our country - Affirmative action.

Now here is where the similarities come in. The current situation in my country has lead to great unhappiness within the group I currently find myself surrounded by. (Young white South Africans). You have no idea how many times I had to listen to people complaining about how it is so hard to get a job ect.

What they are missing is that the black people in my country have suffered much worse for the last 30 years and to such an extent that it will take at least another 10 years for them to catch up. Within apartheid times the most an average black person could aspire to be was a garden worker. When I say this to my friends they say “but we had nothing to do with apartheid" and this is true but, it doesn't change the fact that it happened and that people were greatly disadvantaged. ARE YOU IN SOME WAY SUPERIOR THAT YOU MY NOT BE DISADVANTEDGED? If we have to work a little bit harder to try and restabilise an inequality that we (or those before us) created so be it. In the relative scale of struggling both here and globally this situation would not even qualify as struggling. In the relative scale of global suffering within the last century this would hardly classify as an inconvenience. This is the reality for the most people in the world. 50% of the world’s population has never made a telephone call. So if the white people in South Africa have to work a little bit harder, start their own business (like me), or even (at worst) find another line of work, it would still be, on the relative scale of struggling globally, not even considered. White people in South Africa (in general) have all the advantages of good education ect. So make it work. You are still better off than most people in the world. Don’t be unhappy or angry because you are being pulled back to the average standards of life and your neighbours are being given a leg-up after generations of struggling.

Luckily in our country most people realise that we are one country, and the wellbeing of all of us depends on the wellbeing of the underprivileged. We now have a country with the most advanced and liberal constitution in the world, where people can be proud of the fact that unlike most of history we are in the process of resolving a terrible injustice with no bloodshed or war. People have massacred each other over much less. We are living in a country were although their are still many inequalities, but there is an active effort to correct this. - We have been acknowledged by this past weekend being awarded the honor of being the first African country to be awarded the soccer World Cup in 2010. yipeeeeeeee!

 

Maybe we should realise that we are one big global family and that the time fore national exclusivity is slowly passing. If people on the top have to come down a little bit to accommodate or help people at the bottom it would only serve to create a better future for all. (hehe - I sound like mahatma). I know it is idealistic and in many ways unrealistic because of the nature of man, but we have to start somewhere.

 

Thanx for all the replies and interest.

Nothing but luv for ya peeps.

 

Archmage

[4DM]

4DM: "left unemployed due to cheap overseas competition, who, here, will be left to buy those apartments?" -

 

 

ArchMage: We have a 30% unemployment rate and we are the best in Africa so forgive me if I am not too compassionate about your situation. Maybe people will start living in cheaper apartments?

 

Sorry, Archmage - I think you got the wrong end of the stick: I'm not feeling compassion for the companies unable to sell their apartments !

It was an example of the economic principle taken to its extreme, whereby 1st world greed shoots itself in the foot.

 

Danny.

[Archmage]

I apologise if i misunderstood you 4DM.

 

Jack

[wda]

But then you have Harley-Davidson...where sometimes a USED Harley sells for more than a new one. What do you think would happen if they moved that company out of the USA?

1. When pigs fly (without the token vernacular expletives)

2. Thier US sales would drop and a cultural phenomon would evaporate. Making the units basicly a product with no real percieved value, large, loud, expensive to operate, and then in direct competition with the rest of the motorcycle market- H.D. would be TOAST.

 

Harley-Davidson is a product of "outsourcing in a region, "the machine shop to the world" at one time anyway. This is the model for survival, it's not about profitabity it's about inovation and doing what needs to be done to survive. AND the reality of about 3 million people in southeastern WI that the future does not lie in what the past promised, but the foothold the past gave us to work from, into new and challenging ventures.

 

For those who complain about outsourcing, define it as competition. Then decide what you want to do, close up shop or quit your job today because somehow you are entitled to the top end dollars and someone may take it away?..........

 

In the US we are only entitled to the PURSUIT of happiness, think about it. Only the politicians & unions promise happiness........

 

 

If you feel threatened by competition do something about it, outside of complaining and looking to a goverment to fix your problems. Be like the folks at Harely Davisdson and do what it takes to make it work. Your competition certianly is !!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Respectfully,

 

WDA

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

For those who complain about outsourcing, define it as competition. Then decide what you want to do, close up shop or quit your job today because somehow you are entitled to the top end dollars and someone may take it away?..........

 

In the US we are only entitled to the PURSUIT of happiness, think about it. Only the politicians & unions promise happiness........

 

 

If you feel threatened by competition do something about it, outside of complaining and looking to a goverment to fix your problems. Be like the folks at Harely Davisdson and do what it takes to make it work. Your competition certianly is !!!!!!!!!!

...arch vis and harley davidson is a long shot of a comparison. arch vis i would guess gets used on average for about 6 months, then rarely if ever thought about again. it is a disposable product. sure it may end up in a picture frame, but before long, that frame will find its way into a back room somewhere. ...and whether you like it or not, the computer cheapens the product even more. it blurs the line between the original and a print. harley davidson is about quality craftsmanship that will last several decades, give the owner continuous satisfaction, even when it is broken.

 

...and why not look to the government to control excessive outsourcing? you forget we pay taxes for the government to work for us.

 

yes, i won't even try to call my taxes a drop in the governments bucket, but that does not change the fact that i do pay some miniscule percentage.

 

more than 90% of the wealth in the U.S. is controlled by less than 1% of the population. i am not completely against outsourcing, but when the rules of outsourcing favor the wealthiest people, and place the rest of us at a disadvantage, then there is a problem.

 

i am just a pawn in the game. i have little pull, and my net worth amounts to squat. currently the best option i have to control excessive outsourcing is to give my support and vote to a candidate that agrees with my views on the issue. i am surprised you do not feel the same way regardless of whether you support outsourcing or not.

 

outsourcing for arch vis is a trivial issue. in theory, you should go with the best product you can get for the best price. arch vis artist are not better in one part of the world to the next, the pay scale is usually the biggest difference. i am not taking into account that a lot of third world countries do not have equal access to computers. ...and i am actually quiet surprised that South Africa's pay scale is so close to our own in the u.s.. Archmage estimates his salary at 80% of what he would make in the U.S. if this is always the case, then let the competition be on. ...but i also know arch vis work coming out of china, can be had for far less than 80% of what i would get for a job.

 

i know in previous posts in this thread i have brought up several different products, so why i said arch vis and harley are not fair comparisons, bringing up harley is a valid point. they managed to carve a niche for themselves that as far as i know, is not matched by any other company. but my argument is for control of outsourcing across the board, and actually, i am less concerned about it in arch vis, than other products.

i am afraid i am arguing this from more of a political standpoint, which, unless everyone agrees with you, usually gets you no where.

[4DM]

I apologise if i misunderstood you 4DM.

 

Jack

 

No worries, it did read as more ambiguous than I intended it to.

 

Crazy HG,

I fear that looking to your MP, Congressman, or whatever, to protect your job via legislation, import duties and so on, is doomed to failure.

Not only do they tend to sit, or have ambitions to sit, on the very boards of directors that control and benefit from multinational 'outsourcing', but it is probably now far too late to go back - considering the ubiquity of the internet, the victory of unbridled free market economics, and the failure of protectionist economies in recent history.

The toothpaste is well and truly out of the tube, I'm afraid.

 

Just try to find your USP, offer a personal service, and sell your version of a Harley to your local or national market (and trust in the time difference, language barrier and general inconvenience of going halfway round the world for a picture of a building, to add to the case for employing you, and not someone else further away)

 

I believe that, like all of us, you're on our own, and the last person to ever help you will be a politician ! (Taxes or no taxes).

 

D.