A.Mitov Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 I am buying a new monitor soon replacing my old one. I settled on these 2 models: HP ZR24W and Dell U2410. The second is wide gamut. I read that wide gamut monitors are very difficult to work with because they couldn't properly display sRGB images. Is that true for this Dell model? I heard that it has sRGB simulation but it wasn't very near to the sRGB colors. Which of the 2 is a better choice for 3D, image and video manipulation and why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Jeff Mottle Posted May 10, 2011 Administrators Share Posted May 10, 2011 I am buying a new monitor soon replacing my old one. I settled on these 2 models: HP ZR24W and Dell U2410. The second is wide gamut. I read that wide gamut monitors are very difficult to work with because they couldn't properly display sRGB images. Is that true for this Dell model? I heard that it has sRGB simulation but it wasn't very near to the sRGB colors. Which of the 2 is a better choice for 3D, image and video manipulation and why? Personally I would learn to work with a wide gamut display as that is where displays are all going to be very soon. It's almost there now. To use a wide gamut display, you do need to understand color managed workflows and have a properly calibrated display and use a color managed app like Photoshop. It is possible to do, but it does require some knowledge of how to use one properly. If you prefer to work in sRGB then yes, do get a display that has an sRGB mode you can set. This will simply limit the gamut of colors output by the display. I don't know why a display would have a hard time outputting sRGB unless it could not output at least sRGB. Any wide gamut display (which the Dell display is) should easily be able to do this. Perhaps they are commenting on the pre-set white point with the sRGB preset? A few months ago I actually profiled a lower end Dell display (don't recall the model) in it's sRGB mode and compared it to the sRGB color space and it matched almost exactly. Do you have an article mentioning this sRGB issue? Be careful where you get your information, especially about color gamuts and color management. There is A LOT of mis-information out there being posted by people who have no clue what they are talking about. I don't know if the price of these two is your limit (approx $500), but I would also check out the 24 or 27" NEC MultiSync displays too. They are more money, but a significantly better display. If I had to pick one of the units you mention, I'd probably go with the Dell only because I've used them in the past and know they are pretty solid. I had a first gen 30" before I recently bought the new NEC 30 PA301W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.Mitov Posted May 10, 2011 Author Share Posted May 10, 2011 Thanks for the clarification. If what you are saying for the sRGB is right then maybe I will go with the Dell. I forgot to mention that my OS is Windows 7 which I heard is doing better job with wide gamut displays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Jeff Mottle Posted May 10, 2011 Administrators Share Posted May 10, 2011 Thanks for the clarification. If what you are saying for the sRGB is right then maybe I will go with the Dell. I forgot to mention that my OS is Windows 7 which I heard is doing better job with wide gamut displays. Windows 7 and Vista both have some built in functionality to handle color management better, but it's not a replacement for a proper calibration/profiling device and without one is not going to do anything better. I would also use the software that comes with one of these devices over the windows software. I think you can force a profile to load within windows for non-color managed apps, but I've not tried it and can not confirm how it might affect applications like Photoshop. The windows implementation of color management for whatever reason uses a non standard industry profile format. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Nelson Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Just saw this one the other day, very tempted! It would be replacing a cheapo 24" Asus that I currently use. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824236119&cm_re=ips-_-24-236-119-_-Product What do you think Jeff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Jeff Mottle Posted May 13, 2011 Administrators Share Posted May 13, 2011 Just saw this one the other day, very tempted! It would be replacing a cheapo 24" Asus that I currently use. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824236119&cm_re=ips-_-24-236-119-_-Product What do you think Jeff? Probably better than the display you have, but I've not had any experience with Asus displays and I personally would tend to stick with more mainstream brands for color work myself (NEC, Eizo, Dell, Viewsonic, Apple). The one thing that makes me laugh is their advertising of less than 5 delta E for color accuracy. A delta E of 5 is huge and would be visible to most everyone. What they are referring to is the ability of the display to display the same color evenly across the entire display. While we are more sensitive to certain hues than others, as a point of reference, the NEC PA301W that I am reviewing as we speak has an average grayscale delta E of 0.35 at 100 cd/m2. Our eyes are most sensitive to changes in grayscale values. Here's a general scale of delta E values for reference. Delta E value: Meaning 0 - 1: A normally invisible difference 1 - 2: Very small difference, only obvious to a trained eye 2 - 3.5: Medium difference, also obvious to an untrained eye 3.5 - 5: An obvious difference > 6: A very obvious difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Nelson Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Ahhh, thanks for the feedback. Interesting about the Delta E value and not something I am familiar with. I wonder what the value of these cheapo monitors typically is, especially if they are bragging about a value of 5 that you say is not very good at all. The monitor I have now was never intended to be used for serious work, it has nearly zero viewing angle, meaning if I am looking at the monitor straight on and move an image around on the screen it changes drastically which makes working with dark images very challenging. So I guess what I'd be looking for most in a new monitor is very good viewing angle and screen uniformity. Color accuracy is important too of course. Are there any other monitors you would recommend in the same $500 price range? That's about 2x as much as I've ever paid for a monitor and I'd have a hard time convincing myself I'd need to spend more. I imagine $500 would be a good compromise between quality and value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Jeff Mottle Posted May 13, 2011 Administrators Share Posted May 13, 2011 Ahhh, thanks for the feedback. Interesting about the Delta E value and not something I am familiar with. I wonder what the value of these cheapo monitors typically is, especially if they are bragging about a value of 5 that you say is not very good at all. The monitor I have now was never intended to be used for serious work, it has nearly zero viewing angle, meaning if I am looking at the monitor straight on and move an image around on the screen it changes drastically which makes working with dark images very challenging. So I guess what I'd be looking for most in a new monitor is very good viewing angle and screen uniformity. Color accuracy is important too of course. Are there any other monitors you would recommend in the same $500 price range? That's about 2x as much as I've ever paid for a monitor and I'd have a hard time convincing myself I'd need to spend more. I imagine $500 would be a good compromise between quality and value. One thing to consider too is that a properly calibrated display will have a much better delta E. The values they advertise are out of the box using their built in sRGB and AdobeRGB modes. The less than 5 delta E they advertise is not necessarily an indication it could not be calibrated much more accurately, but just a dumb marketing tactic nevertheless IMHO. It just means that out of the factory they are more critical of the variance between units to ensure overall consistency. Dell does this too with their better graphics displays, but they don't advertise it like Asus does. From my testing and with larger 30" displays there can be as much as a 20-30% difference in color across the display. The NEC uses a special built in feature to analyse and even out the color and luminance. From my measurements on a calibrated display this PA301W is within 0.12 to 2.92% difference with their built in uniformity correction on. When it's turned off, those numbers jump to 2.5 to 28.3%. I know this display (around $2500) is out of your price point, but gives you an idea what you are paying for in terms of performance. I've not been able to personally test a lot of displays, but I have tested a number of NEC and Dell displays, so that is what I am most familiar with. This is more than you want to spend, but this is the 24" version of the 30" display I'm testing. Same internals: http://www.necdisplay.com/p/pa241w-bk-sv?comparison=1 I liked the 30" version so much I bought one so if you needed a testimonial before the review comes out. There is it Approx. $1250 This one http://www.necdisplay.com/p/lcd2490wuxi2-bk?comparison=1 is a bit less over your budget and is not a wide gamut display, but would most certainly be a solid performer. Especially compared to the Asus. Approx $900 The Dell U2410 looks to be a decent display with good reviews for the price point your looking for: http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04&sku=320-8277 Approx. $600 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dollus Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 (edited) I'm pretty sure Asus monitors are just rebranded from someone else and not the pick of the litter of whoever is the provider. i think Dell's are samsung panels. when it comes to monitors, i also think it's worth spending a bit more for a quality product. It's one of the few peripherals that have a lasting lifespan in our world so the roi is much better than, say, spending double on a graphics card. For some reason, i'm under the impression the LaCie monitors are rebadged NEC hardware. Jeff, have you ever tested the LaCie monitors? Edited May 13, 2011 by John Dollus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Jeff Mottle Posted May 13, 2011 Administrators Share Posted May 13, 2011 For some reason, i'm under the impression the LaCie monitors are rebadged NEC hardware. Jeff, have you ever tested the LaCie monitors? I haven't, but LaCie, should definitely be added to that list of providers to trust for quality. I also agree that you should invest in your display. Given EVERYTHING you do it visualized on the display, I would not cheap out there. Then again, I'm uber picky about color and I can't even watch a movie on my 60" Plasma if the colors are off. I spend the entire show obsessing over the wrong skin tones and improper black point. LOL. My wife loves it when the movie is blocked by the TV color control panel in the middle of he movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Nelson Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 I haven't, but LaCie, should definitely be added to that list of providers to trust for quality. I also agree that you should invest in your display. Given EVERYTHING you do it visualized on the display, I would not cheap out there. Then again, I'm uber picky about color and I can't even watch a movie on my 60" Plasma if the colors are off. I spend the entire show obsessing over the wrong skin tones and improper black point. LOL. My wife loves it when the movie is blocked by the TV color control panel in the middle of he movie. Ha!! That made me laugh.....and cry a little bit. I am about to move on to my 6th tv in the past 3 months. I AM picky! I have tried 4 plasmas and I have come to the conclusion that I am too sensitive to many things. Thank the lord my wife has the patience to put up with me. Next up is an oldy but goody LG backlit local dimming led set, the 55LHX. Matches the black levels of the famous Kuro, yay! Heard many many good things about this set so this had better be it... Anyways, back to monitors, I agree it is not something you should skimp on, and I am totally guilty of doing just that. I guess I've always viewed it more of a utility than something for entertainment. Our eyes have an amazing ability to adjust to our conditions (and monitors) and compensate for flaws that our display devices have. If you get used to working with a shabby monitor, you are only that much more pleased when you actually see it on a nice display. And I agree too that a good calibration is more important than the hardware itself. I just re-calibrated mine today and I must have done it improperly last time because it is so much better now, I'm not sure what happened. I still plan to upgrade at some point though seeing as how, like, my job depends on it and stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Nelson Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 I have tried 4 plasmas and I have come to the conclusion that I am too sensitive to many things. I have also come to the conclusion that TV quality over the last few years has not improved much at all. Manufacturers are skimping on quality builds and playing the slimmer/sleeker/widgets/3d card. At least for the led lcd lineup. The plasmas do have quite a nice picture though, if you don't mind a little buzz and some picture fluctuation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Jeff Mottle Posted May 13, 2011 Administrators Share Posted May 13, 2011 I have also come to the conclusion that TV quality over the last few years has not improved much at all. Manufacturers are skimping on quality builds and playing the slimmer/sleeker/widgets/3d card. At least for the led lcd lineup. The plasmas do have quite a nice picture though, if you don't mind a little buzz and some picture fluctuation. It's a shame they stopped making Plasmas, but a few years ago I dropped a good wad of cash on a 60" Pioneer Elite and hands down it's the best display I've ever bought. Last year I was in a high end Audio/Video store (the kind where you can spent $30,000 on speakers and buy vacuum tube amplifiers) and although they did not sell the display I have, they said it was one of the best display ever made. Not sure what else out there now is comparable. Have not looked in the last few years. In any case I understand your dilemma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Nelson Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 It's a shame they stopped making Plasmas, but a few years ago I dropped a good wad of cash on a 60" Pioneer Elite and hands down it's the best display I've ever bought. Last year I was in a high end Audio/Video store (the kind where you can spent $30,000 on speakers and buy vacuum tube amplifiers) and although they did not sell the display I have, they said it was one of the best display ever made. Not sure what else out there now is comparable. Have not looked in the last few years. In any case I understand your dilemma. You are lucky indeed, and I keep telling my friend that who has the same model. The Pioneer Elite Kuro is still the display which all others are measured against and today's plasmas still fall short. Thats why I was really excited when I read about the 55LHX being up to the same standards as the Pioneer plasma, at least in the opinion of one calibrator. http://www.highdefjunkies.com/showthread.php?8079-Review-LG-55LHX-LED-LCD It came out in 2009 but there are still a few for sale here and there so I'm going to give it a shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Jeff Mottle Posted July 15, 2011 Administrators Share Posted July 15, 2011 You ever pick up a Kuro Tim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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