Jump to content

Advise on Pricing


ashleyclarke
 Share

Recommended Posts

I know this subject has been somewhat done to death but I've just been asked to quote for my first large project and I don't want to blow it by pricing too high or equally under value my work.

 

The project requires 15 external renders, each of a different house on a proposed new development. They range in type and size but are all of similar levels of complexly.

 

Although different, they are all of the same style and therefore I'll be able to use many of the elements again, such as doors, windows, balcony's, guttering and the materials are mostly the same too. I will however have to model significant areas of the site, such as roads, pavements, gardens etc which may be visible in shot.

 

Quality-wise, I confess I'm no Bertrand Benoit but they have contacted me based on some sample work I sent out to a range of developers a few weeks ago, so they have seen the quality levels I can offer and are seemingly impressed. Along with the project outlines they sent some examples of work they have had done previously and mine is a significant improvement on that. I just hope they are willing to accept that this will likely take longer and cost them more than with whoever they used before.

 

Which brings me to the issue of what to quote them. Based on an estimate of time per house, factoring in being able to re-use elements but also considering added time spent on the site layout and external elements (garden walls, greenery, cars etc) I reckon about £300 ($490 USD) each. So about £4500 ($7,330 USD) for the lot. In terms of time, it'll be quite full on (I'm on my own) but I'd say a month to be safe.

 

Those of you based in the UK might have a better idea on how reasonable those costs sound but are there any other factors I should consider? Costs for changes, additional renders etc. Also I have to bear in mind, that I'm just starting out, (did my first paid project 2 weeks ago) and it would be a huge boost to have a project like this under my belt.

 

Any input would be welcome

 

Thanks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Make sure they understand and agree to (in writing) that if they change stuff, it will take longer and cost more. Do you get the files for the surrounding areas from your client or do you have to aquire them yourself? That might cost some money as well. Just try to think of everything that can/will go wrong and how that is going to affect both your budget and your timetable. Then include all of that in the contract so that you are covered.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Houses, depending on the style, can be more difficult than a large commercial building. 1 month gives you 2 days per rendering if you include weekends - and that's including communication time back and forth, no changes, and going on the assumption that you get every bit of information that you need. I would definitely consider subbing out modeling work since going over a month might seem too long.

 

Starting on that 1st rendering with all that time in front of you can make you delusionally optimistic.

 

Always proceed with the worst case scenario in mind.

Edited by heni30
Link to comment
Share on other sites

For the time span, Yes I feel about 2 days per house average will be enough, as I said once I've got the first one done, the others are just variations of that and I'll be able to use many of the same asserts and materials again in the remaining buildings. Although when I'm quoting time frames I'm quoting my time, as in what I'll charge for. If I have to wait days to get info and feedback through that will be additional.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my opinion you should at least double that number.

 

I'd love to double it, I'm just not sure I can justify charging that much or how'd they react to it. They know I'm a fairly new business and they are a relatively small developer themselves and not based in London, in fact far from it, off in the wilds of the rural north so things are a bit cheaper around here.

 

I do think there is an element of me not being brave enough to step up and demand large sums for what I do, maybe that confidence will come once I've a few client behind me, I hope so. To put the figures in some perspective though, around here double that fee (£9000) would be more than 50% of a lot of peoples annul wage before tax.

 

I will have a good think about it and see what happens, I don't want to be kicking myself because I've massively under charged but equally don't want to miss out on a great job for the sake of being greedy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Local economics are a factor, I can't help you there but the last thing you want to do is begin your career undercharging. You may think that after you get established you can raise your rates but that's really hard to do with established clients. It's better to quote them a competitive number and risk not getting the job than to low ball it and get stuck doing a bunch of work for free. Take my word for it, people will let you hang yourself in this business if it suits their needs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like Scott's advice of starting high-ish (within reason) and let them negotiate you down some.

 

Because there are some discount factors: multiple renderings, similar models with reusable elements, etc. to point out when you do come down.

 

It's funny because I've never met an architect who didn't give a discount starting out in order to get those all important 1st commissions; unless you're well off and you can do your parent's house as your 1st job.

Edited by heni30
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do think there is an element of me not being brave enough to step up and demand large sums for what I do, maybe that confidence will come once I've a few client behind me, I hope so. To put the figures in some perspective though, around here double that fee (£9000) would be more than 50% of a lot of peoples annul wage before tax.

 

I will have a good think about it and see what happens, I don't want to be kicking myself because I've massively under charged but equally don't want to miss out on a great job for the sake of being greedy.

 

 

I entirely appreciate this way of thinking, particularly when you're newly self employed. You tend to compare and project your own potential salary against those who are in full time employment in a similar field. However, your fees as a self employed worker justifiably appear to be so much greater than the salary of an employed worker. You are looking after your own future after all. Expenditure is on your shoulders. You have none of the benefits that may be afforded to an equivalent employed person (pension plans etc.). You have to look after your own workflow. You can't assume that if you charge £9000 for this month-long contract that you are going to get 12 such contracts in a row every year and then you're on £108,000 a year. If you unfortunately get no work for the month following then you've instantly halved your income. What would happen to your income at this point in time 6 years ago when the recession really took hold? Imagine what a company would charge per hour for your services if you were in their employment. That figure wouldn't look remotely like your salary per hour at that company.

 

 

I do understand. It's not easy and I took the same approach when I was newly self employed but with hindsight I wish I'd been at bit bolder because working for cheap didn't build me the type of client that I wanted to work for and if I'd have regularly pitched higher then I might now have a few more savings in the bank (maybe!).

 

 

£300 per visual doesn't sound like enough basically. There's always going to be unforeseen time that goes into each render let alone the sheer admin of processing each one. Stick with it if you feel that you're going to lose your first big contract and that there'd be no room for negotiation but my advice would be to try and break out of that mindset sooner rather than later. As you say, hopefully as you gather your first few clients it allows you the breathing space to do that. The point I was trying to make was more about your salary comparison. Don't be afraid of the fact that you look as though you're earning much more. Businesses need to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My advice is to always shoot high and let negations take place if they have to. There can be nothing but good outcomes from this.

 

Good outcome #1. The client accepts your offer and beers are on the house.

Good outcome #2. The client works with you and you end up at a lower number, however it's still a number where you are paid fairly for your work and you still can profit from the job after you've cleared all expenses. You know that you have a client that knows what they are doing and respects you.

Good outcome #3. The client rejects your offer and counters with a wage that won't even afford you a water and bread diet. You tell the client thanks but no thanks, and you walk away knowing that you dodged a bullet working for someone who would never respect you.

Good outcome#4. The client never really responds or just outright rejects you. You walk away knowing that you are going to be better off for not having to work with such a jerkwad. Consider it a blessing in disguise.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well It's done, I sent the quote off this lunch time so I guess I'll just see what happens.

 

I decided in the end to price a bit higher overall and took a closer look at each property adding more on houses if it looked like they could be a bit more work than others.

 

Scott, you're probably right, aim high, negotiate lower if need be. I earn enough from my little side line in climbing wall design / viz for a regular client to pay my bills so anything I get from this is a bonus.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I always have the same advice on talking numbers with clients; the first number you put out there will be the ceiling for that project. The money can only go down from there. Value your self and value your time.

"anything I get from this is a bonus" is a bizarre way to look at work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yup agreed, if they say no, then go lower until they accept (unless it gets too low) don't accept pennies because then they will expect you to do it for that amount everytime. I know it's your first job, but it's also potentially a start to lots of future work.

 

But with regards to how much to charge?

 

How much do you want to earn in a year? Or should I say how much do you think you're worth.

 

/12 /4 /7 = day rate.

 

Then add in the costs of anything you need to buy to do it. i.e. stock trees/grass/furniture/texture packs/plugins/models.

 

Add in how much it will actually cost to do (you might only be working during the day on it, but you'll still be spending extra money on electricity while it's rendering overnight. Unless you plan on using an external render farm, in which case add in those costs too.

 

Then once you've figured out your day rate add 10% (why you ask? why not - contingency for changes etc)

 

And in the grand scheme of things. £300 per image is a very small amount when compared to how much they'll sell each house for. Assuming they sell a single house for £100k. You're essentially charging 0.3% of what they will sell the house for. 0.3% doesn't seem a lot now does it?

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Also how much did your computer cost? Your software? Your office to setup? They won't pay for themselves. You're running at a loss until you've covered those costs, so you want to get that money back ASAP and start making some profit.

 

Would they sell you the house for less than it should cost because it was the first one they'd sold? Don't think so :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

I think a good still render should cost from 1000 to 2000$ USD. You can make a discount for render that re-use similar assets too. Think about it, your client needs it...how can he expect to sell his 200-300k USD houses without any media to advertise it? Well he can't. You have to build up the confidence to price your stuff based on what's it's Worth for them. In this case, it's worth alot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I find it interesting people keep mentioning "Start high and negotiate" or " first number you put out there will be the ceiling for that project. The money can only go down from there"

 

Do you guys negotiate costs often?

I will barely ever negotiate a price for work.. unless its a very big project, and even then I don't really negotiate. They ask for quote, I give quote, they can either accept or reject it.. If they say it is too high i explain to them why the price is what it is and thats that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I find it interesting people keep mentioning "Start high and negotiate" or " first number you put out there will be the ceiling for that project. The money can only go down from there"

 

Do you guys negotiate costs often?

I will barely ever negotiate a price for work.. unless its a very big project, and even then I don't really negotiate. They ask for quote, I give quote, they can either accept or reject it.. If they say it is too high i explain to them why the price is what it is and thats that.

 

Yes, there is quite frequently negotiation with my circle of clients. Nothing fierce, just someone doing their job. The kind of work I do is usually at least triple bid so the client will have prices to look at and also favorites they like to work with. The choice of renderer (and the associated cost) usually has to be justified to the end client so a little back and forth happens often.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...