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Thread: Things are changing

  1. #11
    Veteran Member Ernest Burden's Avatar
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    Default Re: Things are changing

    Quote Originally Posted by fco3d View Post
    ...you only need to worry about the money Dusky shot that you always rather do anyways
    There is always a point of parity with new techniques or tools where everybody has it, everybody can do it, that removes that advantage from the calculation for success or what's 'better'. Once everyone has a mobile phone, the question becomes who has the best phone. The realtime and one-button tools are not yet commonplace, but they will be. With rendering, and what could keep us relevant in the workforce, it is still going to be how good or effective our work is vs. that baseline of what everybody else is showing. Yes, much of the work will be done in a production-line by non-skilled people (in the finer arts of rendering architectural subjects), but it will be as special as a floorplan.

    In many circumstances it will still be advantageous to have your project photos by Peter Aaron over a summer intern with an iphone.
    Ernest Burden III
    AcmeDigital
    architectural rendering.

  2. #12
    Veteran Member beestee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Things are changing

    Don't view it as a problem, take the bull by the horns and learn the new medium. If an unskilled artist can get decent results with such little effort, imagine what a skilled artist can do with near instant feedback from a render engine. A lot of an architectural visualization artist's skills translate and hold value.

    You no doubt have noticed poor textures, camera composition, and post processing in some of the work coming from these new engines. If you don't see it then you can't fix it...but we can see it, and already have all the knowledge necessary to fix it and make it better.
    koolnits, chroma and redvella like this.
    Ben Steinert
    pb2ae.com

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Things are changing

    Yip. You pretty much repeated exactly what I said. A tool for every job.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Things are changing

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxer View Post
    Over the years I've seen countless threads about the one button render option and the reaction to those threads is usually the same, most people would say it's either a long way off or it won't never happen. I was one of those people who believed that my position as the lone 3d artist wasn't in jeopardy and no one click option would ever be able to compete with my work. In the last 12 months I've seen the first hints of this becoming a reality, with new tools like iray and vray for Revit as well as programs like Lumion, Twinmotion and Unreal we are closer than ever before to a one button render. As someone who's been doing things the same way for almost 2 decades I'm reluctantly beginning to realize that the old way may not be the best way anymore and I need to re-evaluate the way I work. In light of how quickly these programs are able to render it's becoming harder to justify the expense of maintaining a large render farm when a single PC can output animations and video in a fraction of the time and cost. I realize the quality may not yet be equal to what programs like Vray can produce especially for those very talented artists among us. However for the most part I think Architects tend to see CG as a necessary evil and I've found they are willing to give up some quality if it means faster production and potentially more imagery. Don't get me wrong I don't think this is the end of traditional rendering methods yet but it's not hard to imagine a day not too far off when they are no longer king of the hill. I'm eager to hear what the CGA community thinks about this and I'd love to know how you intend on dealing with this little problem especially those that work in house.
    I don't see this as a problem either. Not technology at least. Someone has to do all the rest: It's not just rendering.

    If anything, what worried me the most was that architects were outsourcing to china or other countries where there's armies of people in a place where the cost of living is much lower. This seems to be proving to be not efficient at all for what I heard. Phew!
    And the new technology in rendering lets us lower our prices too to be more competitive.

    Yes, interns could do what we do, but you get what you pay for.

    Unless Revit or a newer alternative for BIM can allow rapid sketching and convert the sketch automatically to a well done model, with automatic vegetation placement and everything, and auto nice lighting and camera... I don't know.
    I think there's still room for us, regardless the one button rendering.

  5. #15
    Veteran Member philip kelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Things are changing

    So Having read all the above.

    ~ How are you future proofing your company?
    ~ Are you investing in R&D?
    ~ Are you buying Twinmotion or Lumion?


    The time line of modelling and rendering a project in 5 days, is not an option with Unreal, everybody knows that.
    So with little money to spend , where are you putting your money?

    Phil

  6. #16
    Veteran Member VelvetElvis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Things are changing

    We're future proofing our company by listening to the client's wishes. Sometimes, we just need to drop the "But we're zee artists!" schtick and just crank out a so-so quality render. You make quite a bit of profit on these so-so renders and they usually lead to bigger and better quality marketing level renders.

    We're trying to R&D as best we can, but times are quite busy right now and we haven't had any measurable downtime in the past year. With the small staff we have, we need everyone working on billable projects.

    Lumion is nice, but an expensive investment as you only really should be using the top-tier package. The lower tier packages don't come with enough stuff to make Lumion worth it. Also, you need to invest in a pretty nice computer. However, Lumion is always going to look like a step-child to UE4 and I'm still not sure on Lumion's ability to handle a complex scene. I'm still on the fence about Lumion since we now are using Enscape office-wide, but after seeing the Lumion 7 features video I'm getting some interest in it. I just wish they had a better trial period than 7 days. As we all know once you think you have time to test out a new software, that's precisely the time 10 projects come into your schedule. 7 days isn't enough to fully evaluate a product that costs $3,400.
    digitalputty likes this.
    Scott S.

  7. #17
    Junior Member michaelkhoo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Things are changing

    I'll list down what the pros and cons of Twinmotion,Vray, Lumion and even... artlantis based on my experience with all of them.

    Vray
    Pros
    -you can never go wrong with Vray if you know what you are doing
    -it is the standard in the archviz industry.
    -tech support and asset libraries are widely available as the user group is so huge.
    -provides extensive control over render elements

    Cons
    -learning curve is rather steep
    -long render time if you dont have a proper machine, dont even think of doing animation
    -lack of live feedback(RT is not that reliable sometimes)
    -material and lighting tweaking and experimenting can be a tedious process

    Artlantis
    Pros
    -very easy to learn and use/ drag and drop
    -good exterior base renders
    -render elements
    -lighting and material can be adjusted really quickly
    -good realtime feedback

    Cons
    -no distributed render(v5 below),animation is a no go without using their private render farm service
    -caps out at a certain point in terms of time spent vs quality(cant really do photorealistic)
    -lack of tech support
    -interior and lighting is very very limited
    -new version(6 and above) is a disaster that killed half of the advantage they had.

    Lumion
    Pros
    -super easy to learn
    -acceptable output that will amaze clients and the general public
    -made working feel like gaming
    -super fast renders and realtime feedback, renders in secs, animation in hours
    -huge library of 3d assets

    Cons
    -render elements is flawed and bugged out most of the time
    -undo/redo button is so limited that it disrupts workflow(cant believe this can be an issue in 2017)
    -material applying is easy but also can be pain in the ass to be edited
    -limited control over most of the assets and library textures
    -moving,scaling, transforming,and referencing option is terribly scripted that you can never be accurate.
    -output size is extremely limited, you can only frame your views in their 1920x1080 screen.
    -tech support is limited and a team that never listens to the general public.

    Twinmotion
    Pros
    -similar to lumion
    -programmed so well that you can almost work on your design even in the program
    -Overall control is heaps better than lumion, xyz coordinate move and transform, model exported in layers, texture animation and customizations etc
    -good render elements and render output size customization
    -upcoming 2018 version is powered by unreal engine, which is definitely opens up new possibilities

    Cons
    -quality is subpar compared to Lumion (twinmotion 2018 however, is worth keeping an eye for)
    -limited tech support


    In short, i think in terms of potential, this new Twinmotion 2018 is right on top now(Just imagine having the power of UE, with the simplicity of Twinmotion), but in terms of stability and support availability, Vray still has its edge. Ultimately, it all goes down to the time x cost x quality factor.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Things are changing

    Quote Originally Posted by VelvetElvis View Post
    So I'll be the best button pusher ever. EVER!

    Real time like Enscape is great for the design phase renders, terrible for the marketing level renderings. So what that means for me is less time dealing with the change this bulkhead 10 times in one day rendering, and more time for me to focus on creating the image to sell the public on the idea.

    The other great thing about Enscape, hearing the Revit team bitch about how terribad their models are and why there are gaps and holes everywhere.
    My thoughts exactly. We have just adopted Enscape in our office and one of my directors called me over to look at an image he'd made and quipped "we don't need you any more"; of course he was joking and they very much do still need someone dedicated to visuals - but the feeling in my gut for a brief moment was one of panic.

    What if in the next 5 years it does become a push button exercise? Then I just remember how many crappy camera views, badly rendered trees, people and materials I've seen in images produced in-house over the years and remember that I am not just a button pusher and there is a certain amount of skill in what I do.

    So far it has only benefited my workflow in much the same way as Scott's - there's more time for me to keep doing what I do, rather than fussing over minute design changes and crappy models that need to be rushed out within the next 30 minutes.
    Check out my blog @ http://macviz.blogspot.co.uk/
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    Cache nothing. Brute force everything.

  9. #19
    Senior Member CliveG's Avatar
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    Default Re: Things are changing

    Quote Originally Posted by Macker View Post
    but the feeling in my gut for a brief moment was one of panic. What if in the next 5 years it does become a push button exercise? Then I just remember how many crappy camera views, badly rendered trees....
    I think this is a pretty key point, that there will always be "cycles" in the industry that are fuelled in part by the latest "push a button" vogue - otherwise known as "the emperors new clothes" that seems to blind middle managers at semi-regular intervals. I've been around for too many of them through the last 32 years.

    Unfortunately these flights of fancy can actually cost the wrong people their jobs because of stupid decisions from wishful thinkers (I believe our disciplines are unique in putting people ill equipped to make such decisions in positions of power - the Peter Principle), but anyway it always seems to come back around that they're hiring again a short while later because the latest thing was just that - the latest "thing" and business goes back to what it knows and needs - reliable results. That is not much reassurance if it's you who get's the flick, but is just to suggest that it's perhaps not necessary to change career entirely just yet, just try and stay ahead of the wave
    Macker likes this.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Things are changing

    Quote Originally Posted by Macker View Post
    My thoughts exactly. We have just adopted Enscape in our office and one of my directors called me over to look at an image he'd made and quipped "we don't need you any more"; of course he was joking and they very much do still need someone dedicated to visuals - but the feeling in my gut for a brief moment was one of panic.

    What if in the next 5 years it does become a push button exercise? Then I just remember how many crappy camera views, badly rendered trees, people and materials I've seen in images produced in-house over the years and remember that I am not just a button pusher and there is a certain amount of skill in what I do.

    So far it has only benefited my workflow in much the same way as Scott's - there's more time for me to keep doing what I do, rather than fussing over minute design changes and crappy models that need to be rushed out within the next 30 minutes.
    You should be as worried as a video editor when the company where he works starts using iMotion.
    Or as a photographer when the client tells him he can use his iphone.
    Or a web designer when their client tells him they're using wix.
    Macker likes this.

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