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Thread: Getting left behind....

  1. #11
    Veteran Member Ernest Burden's Avatar
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    Default Re: Getting left behind....

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxer View Post
    Yes that's what' Datasmith is but I don't believe this is a long term solution to this problem for Chaos, there's no money in it for them.
    Chaos are used to getting a piece of every pie in digital rendering. I would think they would be working on an in-suite competitive product. BUT... thank you for the numbers. However, those differences are smaller for small studios (OP's situation).

    Vray is going to produce better results, as you said, but most of my work is based on what I can do in post, so maybe I could get close enough with Lumion.
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  2. #12
    Junior Member bertabob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Getting left behind....

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxer View Post
    As an example I've started using Lumion to render out less important animations, on one machine rendering 1080P @ 60 FPS my render times are about 5 hours for a 45 second animation. .
    Hi,
    Off topic: do you really need 60 FPS for a walkthrough with real-time engine?
    I'm not so familiair yet with real-time remderers.


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  3. #13
    Moderator Maxer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Getting left behind....

    Nope you certainty can get by with 30 FPS but the higher frame rate does play back smoother and at the cost of a few hours I feel is worth it.
    bertabob likes this.
    I make fake things for real people to convince them fake things are real.

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    Default Re: Getting left behind....

    This is my personal opinion.
    To me it really depends on the type of visualization you do and how steady is your work.
    If you are a freelancer with many clients coming and going, you need to stay in the top of the game, competition is very rough nowadays and giving a little more for the same budget really make the difference.

    If you are an in-house Artist, I guess this will depend on what are the goals and how close your company works with clients, in my case I work for an Architectural company so the more I can produce in the shortest time the better, Of course not sacrificing quality.

    Now, truth to be told real time is here to stay, sooner than later you need to play the game, it is true that every day a new software comes up with a more efficient and faster way to do things, for instance, Escape. It is one click and you have raytraced images, progressive real-time and VR. Of course, the VR part is a long way to be perfect performance is very low but alas, you are doing literally nothing to get there.

    Seating and waiting for things to get better IMO should not be an option, you should at least read and test; so when it comes time to decide what to use, you have some foundation and don't get blinded by publicity.
    Let say you don't know anything about Raytracing, and someone comes to sell you Lumion or Final Render, but you heard about Mental Ray and VRay, what to choose??

    For instance, My company works under Autodesk software, of course when realtime came to the game, Stingray was the first option, it did well while it lasted, but after developing some scenes in Unreal there is a world of difference, and honestly, you should not waste time on Stingray. Unreal or Unity are a much robust and way more supported by a large community than anything that Stingray can hope.
    But if I didn't try, I would not know what's is the core difference, because just reading the website, they look the same.

    My company is producing more real-time presentations that I dreamed, now everybody has access to Enscape and Lumion, me I only concentrate on the 'Fancy' renderings and VR, and overseeing everybody else with their day to day 'quick renderings' but as mentioned by others if a large project comes, with several still images and animation and VR there is only two of us up to the task and having set and fluent workflow with Unreal, the sky is the limit. The sad part is unless you have many cheap artists and lots of computer power, VRay can't produce the same amount of work in the same timeframe. and if changes come, (they always comes) there is no time to re-render all the frames, all the still and adjust photoshop work. And I consider my self pretty fast on Max and VRay.


    Of course, everyone has his own style and workflow, and 'traditional' raytracing can still produce the highest quality images, but again VRay is developing VRay for Unreal and pretty sure there is a reason for that.

    Epic keeps pouring money into Unreal and developing real-time GI, the goal is not to have to use baked Lighting map, when that happens, that would be a total game changer.

    Imagine you get a project and the client ask for still images for print and panoramas for google cardboard and he would like a 3 minutes flythrough.
    You could import everything into Unreal, then render high res with VRay inside Unreal and everything else with traditional Unreal tools.
    Maybe VRay for Unity also may come
    "It is good to renew one's wonder"

  5. #15
    Senior Member CliveG's Avatar
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    Default Re: Getting left behind....

    To move the drift of this a bit sideways.... my original question mentioned also "Tours" because my clients see this (very different product) as offering similar benefits to a "real time" experience. Basically offering clients a stilted or staccato tour of a scene rather than a seamless tour of a scene.

    As long as the client get's to drive his own exploration of the scene, if that exploration is clicking on a door for example and being taken into the centre of the room, looking around a panorama of that room, then clicking on another thing to take them to the next, then my clients are happy enough with that in the interim.

    For me producing half a dozen panoramas is much easier to do than learning Unreal (while I wait for Vray / Unreal or Datasmith as mentioned above) But do you guys see this as a dead market (or just for realtors to use) as currently all of the good products seem too expensive for what they offer us in our sector? Do you even bother with any of these Panorama based "Tours" at all or are you all fiddling with real time engines instead?

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    Senior Member spacefrog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Getting left behind....

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveG View Post
    ...as currently all of the good products seem too expensive for what they offer us in our sector? Do you even bother with any of these Panorama based "Tours" at all or are you all fiddling with real time engines instead?
    Could you please elaborate on what you mean by "all good products seem too expensive" ? Could you list the products with their price tags ?
    I ask, because i'm the developer of a pretty advanced ( my humble opinion of course ) VR/Stereo Pano Tour product, which gets used for complete client 360 VR experiences (produced for clients by an archviz studio ). This includes all VR and non VR platforms ( desktop, mobile ) and includes shared tours on all screens also ( including shared, guided tours on the VR headsets). As i said currently this is strictly for inhouse productions, but for 2018, we consider opening it up for general usage and client purchase.
    I'm aware that most existing tools in that realm, are using some online based, rental/subscription pricing model. Is it that that's makes them uncomfortable (from a price point ) to you ? Would be really thankfull if you would share some insight about your thoughts
    Last edited by spacefrog; December 10th, 2017 at 10:46 PM.

  7. #17
    Senior Member CliveG's Avatar
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    Default Re: Getting left behind....

    Quote Originally Posted by spacefrog View Post
    Could you list the products with their price tags ?
    I'd not consider it appropriate for me to list products and prices here, I'm sure you're more familiar with that marketplace than I am so I would assume you'll be aware of the products and their pricing structures without me.

    That said I'll put to you the broad brush of what I've discussed and you'll probably be able to discern whom it is I'm referring to.

    As you said a lot of products in the marketplace offer a an on-line rental type subscription model or an outright purchase with online type hosting arrangements etc. all of which is a bit too much of a marriage for me at the moment.... right now I want a bit more of a casual hook-up!

    One of the more important facilities for me and my clients is the ability to send a shrink wrapped file of a complete tour that is then able to be viewed on PC / Tablet etc. by the end user - preferably with copyrighting facility built in to prevent abuse of our file. We don't want to be referring clients to a website or 3rd party host either.

    Secondly I'd anticipate doing this on maybe half a dozen projects a year (initially) and so a 500 euro price tag for a licence or even a 50-60 euro a month on-going subscription just doesn't stand up as value for money when my subscription for Corona itself (for example) is just 25 or so Euro's a month (I see it in Australian dollars so can't remember what it is in Euros exactly) and that's a daily driver for me!

    So I don't know exactly what would be acceptable financially for me and in turn for my clients, I'd probably just be happy with a pay for each finished tour or something of that order with an option to go for a full licence / subscription at a later date. Either that or a descent evaluation period and non-watermarked or restricted finished product so I could test the viability on a live project without flushing that time and effort down the WC, if it's a good product a purchase would then follow.

    You want to hurry this out for the Archviz market - as mentioned above.... we're all waiting for "real-time" to pop or do you not consider that a threat?

  8. #18
    Senior Member spacefrog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Getting left behind....

    Thanks for the detailed response...
    Honestly speaking , i don't think such a specialist tool and a renderer are really comparable. A renderer would have a far broader market from which potential buyers would possibly come from. 360 VR pano is more or less a niche. So the fact that you would find the price for such a tool ( depending on it's capability of course ) too expensive at a 500,- for a one time license, surprises me a bit. I understand your argument against a 50-60 monthly rate, but it sounds as you would see this as "better" value even when it's only rental ?
    Regarding the realtime threat: yes of course it might be one for such a product, but i think the effort, to bring something good looking and performing acceptable onto any mobile device is still years off. And i see the current trend to one-click solutions not as the holy grail for any product you want to hand out to end customers ( maybe even make it available on Appstores, downloadable for everyone for marketing purposes) . For internal or pure archviz-purposes okay, but even there at some point you will hit the end of automated possibilities. And not to forget, thhe more automated, the more every ones output will look the same, operate the same and thus be totally interchangeable ( and the price-race to the bottom will hit in )
    But i think i miss-used this thread enough so i'll stop for now ;-)
    So thanks for your detailed response again
    Last edited by spacefrog; December 11th, 2017 at 12:45 AM.

  9. #19
    Senior Member CliveG's Avatar
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    Default Re: Getting left behind....

    Quote Originally Posted by spacefrog View Post
    Honestly speaking , i don't think such a specialist tool and a renderer are really comparable. A renderer would have a far broader market from which potential buyers would possibly come from. 360 VR pano is more or less a niche. So the fact that you would find the price for such a tool ( depending on it's capability of course ) too expensive at a €500,- for a one time license, surprises me a bit
    Sure, you may be right, but I don't assess my spending justification based on whether any product comes from a niche market or not, I assess it based on whether it presents actual tangible value for money for me and only for me.

    As I said, if it had a more tapered entry with say a month or two fully operational evaluation period I may well find that this is a useful tool for my business and that it would pay for itself in a year or two and be happy to pay 500 Euros... I could also find that it doesn't work as well as their promo videos suggest and that I've got a 500 Euro white elephant, especially if I don't have the opportunity to properly assess it!

    I'm not just looking for "one button solutions" either, I'm happy to pick up skills where necessary, indeed it's to my advantage if not every Joe can offer the service. However it's all about the bang for the buck, I need to be able to learn it quickly enough that I can charge for the first project I try and then improve my skills on projects thereafter. IF I can produce a workable, ship-able Pano-tour first time I try it and it all goes smoothly then I'd probably pay 500 Euros, but not for a watermarked restricted Pano-tour with all sorts of on-going tie-ins.

  10. #20
    Senior Member redvella's Avatar
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    Default Re: Getting left behind....

    CG have you tried krpano?
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