Need advice on workstation build (I'm a newb)

I'd like to build a workstation PC, mainly for using 3ds max (arch-viz related) and the adobe products like photoshop, illustrator etc..

If possible, I would like to leave some room for expansion (2 CPU's? 1 now, one later? Or would that even make sense?) What kind of build would you recommend? I really don't have a particular budget at the moment, but something in the $2000-2500 USD range seems reasonable for starters.

Eventually, once I feel my portfolio is up to snuff, I'd like to use this PC for free lancing projects in the future, or as part of a business.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. My knowledge on computer hardware is lacking right now for me to be able to figure out which parts suit certain apps better than others. What I have learned, from reading this site, is that most people are in agreement that GTX 780's are the way to go over the expensive quadro cards, which surprised me.

Let me know if I need to be more specific about anything.

Hi Payton!

I think a one-socket motherboard and an i7 would be enough. You can buy Xeon CPUs and a two-socket motherboard, but you'll be better off with the i7. the i7 4960x (12 threads) costs about $1000, you'll need a cooler for that, it's about $50-$100. 64GB Ram (Kingston 1866MHz) for about $750. An Intel motherboard for about $100-$200 (I don't really know much about motherboards, so I wouldn't say which I recommend). The GTX 780 is good enough for most tasks, it costs about $400-$430. You'll need a good case for these and a power supply. They cost about $100 for a good case, and another $80-$100 for a nice power supply.

Combined this costs about $2300-$2500.

With a workstation like this you won't have any performance problems.

Hi Payton!

 

I think a one-socket motherboard and an i7 would be enough. You can buy Xeon CPUs and a two-socket motherboard, but you'll be better off with the i7. the i7 4960x (12 threads) costs about $1000, you'll need a cooler for that, it's about $50-$100. 64GB Ram (Kingston 1866MHz) for about $750. An Intel motherboard for about $100-$200 (I don't really know much about motherboards, so I wouldn't say which I recommend). The GTX 780 is good enough for most tasks, it costs about $400-$430. You'll need a good case for these and a power supply. They cost about $100 for a good case, and another $80-$100 for a nice power supply.

Combined this costs about $2300-$2500.

With a workstation like this you won't have any performance problems.

Thanks, Krisztian!

I think buying the 4960x might be a better idea as well. I was just curious as to whether double xeon's at lower clock speeds were any better when it comes to rendering than the i7 4960x? Or for that matter, the new Haswell-E i7-5960X?

First things first:

-specify your workflow: describe how you work in detail (version max, version adobe, render software, size models etc. etc)

-is your budget with or without screen

-do you want to game on your build

The more detail you give the better advise you will get.

I think 5930k is probably in the budget but 5960x is probably overbudget unfortunately. 900 series Nvidia cards are just around the corner. Unless you are going to game or use a GPU rendering engine a 960 should be sufficient for all but the heaviest scenes. 32gb of Ram is nice, unfortunately ddr4 is still expensive and I have not seen any low profile heatsinks yet but I am sure they will be out shortly.

Xeons are great if the budget is really high and you can get some crazy number of cores. For 2-2.5k I think i7s still have the best performance per dollar.

I think I should do a bit more research before writing my post. I didn't know about the i7 5xxx series.

Sorry for the outdated info.

Jason gave you some better advice.

I think 5930k is probably in the budget but 5960x is probably overbudget unfortunately. 900 series Nvidia cards are just around the corner. Unless you are going to game or use a GPU rendering engine a 960 should be sufficient for all but the heaviest scenes. 32gb of Ram is nice, unfortunately ddr4 is still expensive and I have not seen any low profile heatsinks yet but I am sure they will be out shortly.

 

Xeons are great if the budget is really high and you can get some crazy number of cores. For 2-2.5k I think i7s still have the best performance per dollar.

Yeah, that's true. How long does it usually take for those prices to come down?

The Xeons are crazy expensive, I think you guys are right. I'd be better off with an i7 and save about $800 bucks on the CPU.

From everything I've been reading, the 4960x is still pretty comparable to the 5960x. Factor that in with the more expensive DDR4 ram, and the money starts to add up.

I think the most confusing thing for me to wrap my head around right now is learning motherboards. I just finished reading this comparison review and I have no idea what some of that chipset stuff means, haha.

For some reason I responded yesterday, but my post never showed up. Must not be allowed to hyperlink web pages or something..

Anyways, yeah, I agree with you about the ddr4 ram. All that would probably take me well beyond my budget, and the Xeons are crazy expensive. Might as well save an extra $800 bucks on the CPU and go with an i7. From everything I've been reading, it sounds like the 5960x and the 4960x are still pretty comparable, as far as performance -- or at least close enough to not warrant spending the extra money on the newer parts.

I do game on the side, so that extra clock speed would probably help.

What kind of motherboard would I need to pair with a 4960x? And is it possible to use a GTX 900 series card with that CPU? Or can I only use it with a 5960/30 Card?

IDK why you would buy a 4960x now, its the same price as the 5960x and you lose out on the 2 extra cores. Yes the single core clock speed is faster but for gaming there is virtually no difference in performance so if that is your only concern I wouldn't worry about it (http://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Core-i7-5960X-vs-4960X-Performance-Comparison-588/). I would rather have 10% bump in rendering performance with a 1% hit to gaming framerate. You have to realize all these processors are in excess of what would be used on a high end gaming build. A sweet chip right now is the 5820k, 4930k performance for 2/3 the price. Neither 5960x or 4960x are in your budget, definitely not with 780 or 980 as well. You would be looking at 5930k or 4930k max.

Early reports show 5960x can OC to 4.0 easily so getting good single core performance should not be an issue if you are willing to OC.

The 900 series graphics cards will work with either generation processors. 960 will probably run all the current games at high settings no problem unless you are gaming @ 4k or with multiple monitors. I can run BF4 at ultra Crysis 3 on the highest settings etc. on a 770 @1440 so it really isn't a problem. If you want 980 just for the hell of it that is fine but I am just saying that money could be put somewhere more effective or in your pocket for dinner.

I guess it comes down to when you want to build. If you wait a month or so you will have far more options for x99 motherboards, ddr4, 900 series GPUs, windows 9. I would personally wait, there is no point sinking 2k into a build right when the next generation of stuff is coming out. I feel bad seeing the new stuff coming out and I have been using my build for a year now.

From everything I've been reading, it sounds like the 5960x and the 4960x are still pretty comparable, as far as performance

Well then you've been reading wrong because the difference can be quite sensible in multi-threaded performance, or reading purely game benchmarks, which you shouldn't be.

5930k and 4930k is different matter, those are more close.

Well, listen to Jason's advice, that is all sound.

But at the moment it is not even clear whether you would need something like 5960X, or 780 (and its newer 9XX counterparts). Unless you can justify you would be able to benefit from the top high-end parts, than I would be cautious of spending your money that way. Sensible build with 5960X and top GTX would be over 2500 dollars anyway.

Imho you're prime customer for something more down-to-earth (it's not compromise of any sort, you'll likely won't be able to tell difference in practice) like i7 5820k and some upcoming GTX960, with 32GB DDR4 (there are low-profile and "cheap" modules already, mostly by crucial), 256-512GB SSD (/2+TB HDD if you don't already use network storage of some sort) and good parts (gold 80+ psu of good vendor, quality silent case/coolers).

Good points Jason and Juraj. I really appreciate all the info.

The PC I have now is a 4 year old Alienware. It has an i7 960 CPU and an ATI Radeon 5700 card. I bought that while I was still in school, needing something to work on projects with and also for gaming. I need something more serious now. Something that'll last and be upgradeable for when I eventually do get into more heavier workloads as I try to integrate myself into the industry.

I have a few questions for you, if you don't mind:

- Is it possible to upgrade from a 5820k to a 5960x down the road if I wanted to? Or does that not work?

- How comparable are the new GTX 900 cards with the 780, as far as viewport/gpu rendering go? I haven't begun looking into the new ones yet.

- Finally, what motherboard would I need for a 5820k CPU? Motherboard terminology is the most confusing thing to me. From my understanding, the new Haswell-E CPU's fall under the new LGA2011-3 socket and X99 chipset, but looking at sites like Amazon, there's like 100 different kinds of X99 motherboards at varying prices.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=X99%20motherboard

• If you are to go 6-core for "faster single core MHz", just go for a 5820K. Will be faster and cheaper than any 4xxx Hex. Of course you can go for a 8-core (or more?) later on. Perhaps even for a i7-6xxx should those be still on the s2011-3 (most likely will be).
  
• 9xx NVidia GPUs are not out yet. The 980 is announced with 2048 cores and it is expected to be 10-15% faster than 780Ti. This is "massive" for what is also rumored to be a $500, 165W card. That is for D3D gaming of course, the 3DS Max viewport engine is already CPU limited. There is little to no difference going from a 760 to a 780, so I doubt the 9xx will give you much ontop either. Compute should be vastly improved tho, and you will be getting 4GB on the cheaper model, with option for a 8GB model -> but that's even further down the road from the initial launch, and should be at least $100 more than the base 4GB model.
  
• Motherboard X99 - I would probably go with an Asus X99-A to play it safe. No need for more ports or features for ~95% of the "advanced" users out there. Gigabyte equivalents are also a safe bet.
  
• DDR4 : Yes, it is more expensive, but not crazy more expensive. For a 32GB kit, you should break even getting a 5820K over a 4930K. Same or better performance, more future proofing. Don't bother to get uber fancy Corsair Dominator or whatnot...a Crucial Ballistic 2400 kit is already peaking the performance a Haswell-E can extract. Plus, if you overclock your CPU, you most likely won't be able to maintain stable RAM clocks much higher than 2400 regardless of the memory kit you are using.
  

Hey guys, does this look right?

Motherboard: Asus X99-A ($279.00)

CPU: i7 5820k ($389.00)

GPU: GTX 980 ($549.99)

RAM: Crucial 32GB kit (8GBx4) DDR4 2133 MT/s ($439.96)

PSU: EVGA SuperNOVA 750W 80Plus Gold? (Does that sound right?) ($102.59)

Case: I dunno? What do you recommend for this type of build?

1TB Hard drive ($57.24)

250GB Samsung 840EVO SSD ($129.99)

Windows 7 or 8.1? (~$130.00)

Am I missing anything?

Looks good that will be a nice workstation. The 5820k does not come with a CPU cooler, you will need to choose one. I personally would go with AIO liquid cooler, they are quieter and perform slightly better than the best bulky air coolers. Just make sure that the one you choose is compatible with your case (fan size and spacing) and has mounts for the 2011-v3 (not sure if it is different from the previous 2011 socket).

Case is really personal preference, here are some popular brands (you will need to fit ATX sized MOBO):

Corsair

Fractal Design

NZXT

Cooler Master

Lian Li

I personally am in love with the NZXT H440 lots of fans, very quiet, sleek, modern, but it also has no slot for DVD drive if that is important to you. I personally never install them and have 1 USB drive I plug into all my computer when I need it (hardly ever).

Looks good that will be a nice workstation. The 5820k does not come with a CPU cooler, you will need to choose one. I personally would go with AIO liquid cooler, they are quieter and perform slightly better than the best bulky air coolers. Just make sure that the one you choose is compatible with your case (fan size and spacing) and has mounts for the 2011-v3 (not sure if it is different from the previous 2011 socket).

I agree in general, but AIOs are not quieter than a Noctua ND14/15or Thermalright SA. Not even close.

And to give that small performance advantage, are generally spinning their fans @ 100%, and are actually louder, most of the times by a considerable margin.

Look "cooler", might be less of a pain to install and clear RAM heatspreaders, but are actually struggling to be on par @ the same noise levels, are actually louder to outperform - at least with the stock fans. Replacing those with quality fan units, will cost a pretty penny ontop of the kinda salty price for decent AIOs (so you end up spending 2x the price, for 1-2oC difference @ the same noise levels @ the end, or 1.5x more for the same performance with more noise).

I agree in general, but AIOs are not quieter than a Noctua ND14/15or Thermalright SA. Not even close.

And to give that small performance advantage, are generally spinning their fans @ 100%, and are actually louder, most of the times by a considerable margin.

 

 

Look "cooler", might be less of a pain to install and clear RAM heatspreaders, but are actually struggling to be on par @ the same noise levels, are actually louder to outperform - at least with the stock fans. Replacing those with quality fan units, will cost a pretty penny ontop of the kinda salty price for decent AIOs (so you end up spending 2x the price, for 1-2oC difference @ the same noise levels @ the end, or 1.5x more for the same performance with more noise).

My Kraken X61 seems quieter to me than my ND14 although they are on different computer with different cases etc. The Fans spin much slower than the fans on my ND14 at full load and I can not hear the pump much if at all.

I have the opposite experience - tho with a Thermalright Silver Arrow SB-E (the regular with the tan/olive drab fans, not the extreme one with the orange ones) and not a ND14. Both Corsair H100 and Swiftech H220 are louder under full load, and none of the 3 would keep my 3930K @ 4.6 below 85oC. Below 4.5GHz overclocks all 3 performed the same within 1-2oC that could aswell be small imperfections in seating each cooler, and the SB-E was the most silent of the 3.

I would give it a win as in real-life full loads (not burn-in-tests / Prime95), real temps are a good 5oC lower than the max when stress-testing, so the most silent solution was the more preferable one.

By comparison, the same chip under a custom loop with XSPC Raystorm WB, D5 pump, XSPC AX360 + RS240, in line with a GTX Titan also overclocked would stay below 50oC @ 4.9 and below 45oC @ 4.6.

But does that worth around $4-500 ?

I do know that a XSPC Raystorm kit with a single 240mm rad and even the "vanilla" 750 pump costs as mush as a 240mm AIO with upgraded fans. It's more cumbersome and harder to install, but ends up out-performing it and being expandable / upgradable.

Hey guys, does this look right?

 

Motherboard: Asus X99-A ($279.00)

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]51905[/ATTACH]

 

 

CPU: i7 5820k ($389.00)

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]51900[/ATTACH]

 

GPU: GTX 980 ($549.99)

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]51906[/ATTACH]

 

RAM: Crucial 32GB kit (8GBx4) DDR4 2133 MT/s ($439.96)

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]51901[/ATTACH]

 

PSU: EVGA SuperNOVA 750W 80Plus Gold? (Does that sound right?) ($102.59)

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]51902[/ATTACH]

 

Case: I dunno? What do you recommend for this type of build?

 

1TB Hard drive ($57.24)

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]51903[/ATTACH]

 

250GB Samsung 840EVO SSD ($129.99)

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]51904[/ATTACH]

 

Windows 7 or 8.1? (~$130.00)

 

Am I missing anything?

Hi Payton and all (this is my 1st post)!

I would make some changes in your build, if you don't mind:

1. In my opinion, go for the gtx 970. It's almost 200$ cheaper and only 10-13% slower than the gtx 980. Better vfm. You won't be needing something faster I think, and anything faster wouldn't make a huge difference as far as I know.

2. Mobo is OK, I vote for Asus too, but I would save some money from the graphics card in this case and put it in a motherboard more full of specs and more oc ready, ex. http://www.amazon.com/ASUS-DDR4-3000-Motherboard-X99-DELUXE/dp/B00MNPA9SS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1411487453&sr=8-1&keywords=Asus+X99+deluxe. The ideal would be an Asus X99-WS, but it is much more expensive.

3. I would change the psu to this http://www.amazon.com/EVGA-SuperNOVA-80PLUS-Certified-220-G2-0750-XR/dp/B00IKDETOW/ref=sr_1_1?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1411487619&sr=1-1&keywords=EVGA+supernova. Much better in quality and with a sinle 12V rail. See a review here http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story6&reid=380. +10 years warranty (after registration in EVGA's site). Of course, with a gpu like gtx 970-980 you could select a much smaller psu, something between 500-600W. I would personally go for an Antec or a Super Flower. But the EVGA is an exellent psu for the money.

4. SSD. Be careful here. Samsung EVOs had some issues http://www.anandtech.com/show/8550/samsung-acknowledges-the-ssd-840-evo-read-performance-bug-fix-is-on-the-way. You could see this one http://www.amazon.com/Crucial-MX100-adapter-Internal-CT256MX100SSD1/dp/B00KFAGCWK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1411488490&sr=8-1&keywords=MX100 or an http://www.amazon.com/Intel-2-5-Inch-Internal-Reseller-SSDSC2BW240A4K5/dp/B00DTPYT78/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1411488520&sr=8-1&keywords=Intel+530.

5. Windows 7 by me.

(Sorry for my poor English)

This may seem like a silly question, but how do you know how many watts the power supply needs in order for the PC to run efficiently? I know it's determined by the components in the build, but where do you come up with the number?

Also, is it smart to go with a larger power supply if the goal is to upgrade to two graphics cards in the future?

btw, thanks Nikolaos for the advice! You guys have been a huge help.

Manufacturers publish the max wattage for most of their products.

For the "real" consumption and for overclocked components that run well above the manufacturer's specs, usually a wall plug watt meter can be used to take real readings, and certain enthusiast motherboards / GPUs might provide pins for taking readings with a polymeter or using a dedicated tool (they get to sell you for a silly premium).

Now, this way you determine the minimum capacity for your PSU.

What makes it run efficiently or not, is the quality of the PSU itself - regardless of capacity.

Quality 80+ Silver, Gold or Platinum PSUs usually offer very good efficiency, starting 20% load or better usually.

Most designs peak their efficiency around 50%, but we are talking 1-2 % differences here. Most good PSUs have a pretty flat efficiency curve between 30-90%.

Getting a 700W PSU for a system that would never pull more than 300W is a waste - period. Saving 50c - if that - of electricity a month will never outweigh / return the investment.

I have a gpu test bench setup with a clocked 4770K @ 4.5 + GPUs as powerful as GTX Titan, and a 550W PSU is not even breaking a sweat running it. Sure, @ peak load on both CPU & Card it goes 70-90% of its capacity. That's why I did not go for a $15 unit.

PS - hi Nikola - great 1st post, even tho I don't personally agree with all your comments

On the built:

Looks solid.

Mobo: The Mobo is fine. The Workstation mobo is great(er), but unneeded for the most part. I would not bother with it, especially if going for a 5820K built = going for value for money. The fact that you are trying to build a workstation, doesn't give value to the homonymous mobo.

SSD: Crucial is great choice, but Samsung is notably faster and has the absolute best track record in reliability - at least with the 830 & 840 Pro.

The EVO read inconsistency issue was due to a certain firmware version, and I believe was fixed within days of it being acknowledged.

GPU: Agree with Nicholas on this one, 980 is overkill. I personally don't think you will see any tangible differences getting anything faster than a GTX 760 in viewports. If there is an advantage going for $250+ cards, is only in GPGPU & games.

This may seem like a silly question, but how do you know how many watts the power supply needs in order for the PC to run efficiently? I know it's determined by the components in the build, but where do you come up with the number?

 

Also, is it smart to go with a larger power supply if the goal is to upgrade to two graphics cards in the future?

For rough estimation you can take a look at http://www.enermax.outervision.com/index.jsp

I normally calculate it that way that i can stay below 60% load, because most (semi-passive) PSUs start to turn up their fan in this range - and because the efficiancy is normally the best around 50% load

Which is great...but kinda futile: say you have a system that consumes 400W average (that's more than what an overclocked quad i7 with a strong GTX does btw - average)

You get a 550W 80+ gold with similar efficiency curve as the above. That would put you at around 70% load, or 90-92% efficiency for the PSUs above.

You get a great 800~850W that does 94% at the same load - for example's sake. Probably would be a 80+ Platinum.

Thanks 2% of 400W = 8W. That's a couple of fans worth of difference (or fans running @ higher speeds, or less than what a non PWM fan controller eats by itself). Thats less than what 2-3 energystar devices consume @ standby in your house.

Guess when you are going to recuperate the extra cost for a

Only get the PSU that you need.80+ Gold is desirable, yes, but don't oversize it unless you know you going to push it.

For example I would not get a 550W PSU for a hex system that is going to be overclocked, while I believe it would be perfectly fine running a 2P with 10C Xeons @ stock speeds or the average i7 build with any single GPU.

@Payton: Power requirements of a modern high-end system are primarily determined by the gpu, and secondarily by the cpu. These are the most power hungry parts. Drives, fans etc require only a small amount of power, and are usually not taken into account when planning to buy a psu. A gtx 970 has a TDP of ~170W and the i7 5820K ~140W. In real life use, a system based on these two parts would never exceed 300-350W of consumption under full load, and this number, especially when talking about a workstation and not a gaming rig, might be excessive (the average consumption could be something between 200-250W in this case). Things change of course when we’re talking about overclocking, but no too much. I have a build based on an i7 3770k oc’ed @4.3GHz and a gtx 770 (at stock clocks) and under full load power consumption never goes over 350W (put 5 case fans and 3 drives in the equation too).

As for the psu wattage, I tend to partly agree with both Dimitris and numerobis. I think that the best choice, generally speaking, is to buy a psu with a safety power margin. A psu gives its best when a system draws 40-60% of its total wattage under normal use. Efficiency is best at around 50%. And imo, it is not good to run a psu at its limits, ex. over 70-75% of its wattage. There is more heat released and more noise produced by the psu fan. Besides that, when a psu has a construction defect or some problem of another kind, it’s more likely to reveal it close to its thermal limits.

In this particular build a 550-650W psu would more than sufficient. But the EVGA Super Nova G2 750W has a great price at the moment and is a very good psu, so why not?

As for the SLI/Crossfire perspective, I think it would not be of any use for a workstation like this. I am not aware of any architectural, designing or 3d visualization programs that can take use of dual-gpu setups. Dimitris should know more on this subject.

About the motherboard now. I made a suggestion for a more beefy/high-end mobo with the perspective of a cpu upgrade in the future (Payton could find a good used 8core 5960X in the future) and a bigger headroom for oc, and provided of course that he chooses gtx 970 over 980 (saving 200$). The Deluxe and WS models have better cooling, more vrm phases (WS model) etc. But, X99-A is fine for an average use.

As for the 840 EVO, there hasn’t been a firmware update yet. And the problem looks serious enough to prevent someone from buying it at this moment. Some users say the solution might be an automated data refresh (the bug is related to data unmodified for over 20-30 days or so), but it’s too early to know. If Payton is really interested in buying the EVO, maybe he should wait for a few days. Lets see the solution first.

And last, I think it’s well known that AIO liquid coolers produce more noise than an average air cooler. Here is a chart from a Greek site I trust:

As i said above, it's more about noise for me... many silent PSUs start to turn up their fans at ~60% load and i try to stay below this level.

The EVO read inconsistency issue was due to a certain firmware version, and I believe was fixed within days of it being acknowledged.

 

Came here just to comment on this :- ). Nope, it applies broadly to whole 840EVO segment and it's pissing me off because I recently bought 2x1TB 840EVO (in process of completing my 10Gbe network) and they already exhibit this shit.

Also, the fix is coming on October 15th and who knows what amazing solution that is going to be.

Right now I am just pissed off I saved those few dollars and didn't buy far superior PRO. Whatever the solution is going to be, I am taking them back and cashing in for 850.

As i said above, it's more about noise for me... many silent PSUs start to turn up their fans at ~60% load and i try to stay below this level.

Yep, do this as well :- )