Tommy L Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 A client wants me to put a Picasso in a rendering. Am I right in assuming this is not legal without permissions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Correct. Search past threads as there has been a number of discussions on this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Yup, definetly a bad idea. Whichever organization, family, or estate that currates the works will sue you if they ever found out. I know for a fact this has happened to others in this industry doing exactly the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trick Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 What if I make a professional photo of a room that has some Picasso's in it... Or... What if I buy a Picasso reproduction and hang it in a show appartement to attract potential buyers... Both is commercial use !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Correct. Search past threads as there has been a number of discussions on this topic. Most of Picasso's work is old enough to be out of copyright. In the US, at least. The problem comes in when you get an image of one. The guy who photographed it created a new copyright, not to the Picasso but to the slide or scan of it. Catch22. That's how museums control, and charge for, secondary reproductions of works they own that are not covered by IP laws at the time. That's why I buy original antique photographs that I plan to restore and re-print commercially. I will own the scan. Actually, I have put a Picasso in a rendering, but I painted it in by hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koper Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 what if you appropriate it by mirroring/flipping the painting?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 what if you appropriate it by mirroring/flipping the painting?? In the example I cited earlier the company had made some changes to the original image, but it was still recognizable, and they still had settle with the image owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alias_marks Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) A bit off topic, however might be useful to some of the eyeballs on this post. Flickr has a great search option to find commercially usable images if your looking to play it safe for your renderings. I use it all the time to find artwork to hang in renderings. click advanced search next to the search box. see attached. Edited June 16, 2009 by alias_marks add info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 In the example I cited earlier the company had made some changes to the original image, but it was still recognizable, and they still had settle with the image owners. Was the issue that the image was still in copyright or was the artwork public domain, but a reproduction was used that was itself now copyrighted? It's an interesting distinction. Anyone can say they own an image and sue, but it don't make it true. Remember the laughable situation a few years back when the owners of the Chrysler Building in NY said that they owned the image of the tower and you needed their permission (and to pay them) to make images (commercial photos, Tshirts, postcards)? I've photographed a Picasso that was hanging on a museum wall (in a gallery where photography was not prohibited, I think), so the painting is not covered by copyright and the photo is copyrighted to me. What claim would the museum have against me using that photo? Based on what? I stole the soul of the painting? Last week I took a couple of photos of the front of a cable-company truck parked near my house. I am doing a piece with a traffic cone and the truck had a nicely beat-up cone. The cable guy came dashing out of a house demanding to know who I was as if he could make some sort of citizen's arrest. I told him I can photograph anything on a public street and to shove it. I'm all for respecting IP rights, but these days the claims are becoming outlandish fantasy. A little pushback is in order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Was the issue that the image was still in copyright or was the artwork public domain, but a reproduction was used that was itself now copyrighted? From what I was told there was an Estate that still managed all of the art for this particular artist. Which makes me wonder, if Picaso's family had passed ownership of the paintings from generation to generation and they actively maintained the collection, would that then make it still copyrighted today? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 if Picaso's family had passed ownership of the paintings from generation to generation and they actively maintained the collection, would that then make it still copyrighted today? No, copyright is usually the life of the artist plus X years, regardless of ownership. Things have changed in recent times, but back in Pablo's day it was life + 35, I think. Here, in the US. I don't recall what the Berne Conventions say, but it's similar. Sometimes it's been simply a set number of years--75, I think, for copyright from date of creation. That's a whole pile of 'maybe', I know. But copyright is not forever and there are many situations in which it is not applicable. Owners of works now want us all believing that they get to decide what and when. Screw that. There is actual law in place, skewed as it is towards corporate IP holders over actual creative artists. Any broad copyright claim should be based in cited law or be dismissed as humor and ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneis Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 ...if Picaso's family had passed ownership of the paintings from generation to generation and they actively maintained the collection, would that then make it still copyrighted today? No, copyright is usually the life of the artist plus X years, regardless of ownership... Actually, the answer is "Yes"... sort of. The ownership of the actual art piece doesn't qualify the owner for ownership of copyright. Ownership of the rights belongs to the artist until they a) die and will the ownership to someone else (eg an estate) or b) specifically sign the rights over to the owner of the work. There are other situations such as the artist dying without specifying a beneficiary. How this situation is managed, I have no idea. eg: who owns the rights to reproduce Da Vinci? I.P. is also very complicated, thankfully this thread is about Picasso's works. The Picasso Estate is still current and they maintain the rights to reproduction in the US through the Artists' Rights Society. Reproduction and even downloading of an image is illegal without prior consent from the Estate or whoever owns the rights to the particular piece.- the ARS will handle a request for Clearing Rights to reproduction of a protected work. ...Owners of works now want us all believing that they get to decide what and when. Screw that. There is actual law in place... True, but the fact is that if the artist or the estate/ owner of the rights chooses to continue renewing the ownership of rights, they can do just that. In the US, for example, they can renewal term is 47 years (works produced prior to 1978). In Picasso's Spain, the works are protected for a period of 80 years and this can also be renewed. The link to the Artists' Rights Society (US)- Copyright Information pages - http://www.arsny.com/basics.html#howlong WIPO (World Intellectual Property Organization) (Switzerland) - http://www.wipo.org/ and CIAGP (Conseil International des Auteurs d'Arts Graphiques, Plastiques, et Photographiques) who is the visual arts branch of CISAC (Confédération Internationale des Sociétés d’Auteurs et Compositeurs) (France) - http://www.cisac.org Many countries have their own equivalent society. A list can be found here - http://www.arsny.com/sisters.html Check with your own national society for relevant copyrights or better yet, say "No" to the client, explain why and use something released under the Creative Commons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jophus14 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 We have had some clients that will send over the Christie's book with pages bookmarked on which art they want in the image. What happens if a client wants the artwork in the image because they plan on purchasing it and then for some reason or another they don't end up buying the artwork? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Smith Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 just spend a few minutes and repaint it yourself...it's not like Picaso spent more than a few minutes on any of his paintings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneis Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 We have had some clients that will send over the Christie's book with pages bookmarked on which art they want in the image. What happens if a client wants the artwork in the image because they plan on purchasing it and then for some reason or another they don't end up buying the artwork? I plan on purchasing Bosch's "The Garden of Earthly Delights" if it ever goes to auction (I love that artwork but don't have the millions in funds) - it still doesn't mean I have the right to reproduce it in any way. Why not just contact the A.R.S. and ask about clearing rights to reproduce some artworks? You might be surprised, it could be a relatively small fee (if any) to legally use the artworks for a once-off arch viz render. There may also be a relatively small annual subscription you can purchase. Who knows? The answer is just a phone call or email away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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