How to let him down nicely

[ihabkal]

It all happpens too often: 6 months after being done with a project the client comes back with changes. you ask for more money and he argues the fees down to a third claiming that it is only a change of some materials. you do those changes becasue he is your only client at the time and because you need the $$$ and you do the materials changes but next day he says:"please use the elevation I sent you, we modified the design of the building", as if he tricked you into accepting to redo the geometry for a third of the fees just like that!!! WHat kind of person would do that? isn't he a smart talented architect? doesn't he know he redesigned the elevations or does he think that he is smarter by twisting my arm like that? and sadly it takes longer to fix and update chunk by chunk than to do everything in one go, so by dividing the job and surprising me with a new piece of his puzzle everyday, he is costing me much more time and ruining my nerves...

What to say to that person? without losing my only client?

[DelfoZ]

the true.

that remembers to me one thing.

in a restaurant a client look the menu and see the Lemonade Cost 5 dlls. then he call to the boy who take care of the client and the client request for a water glass and some free lemon ( the suggar is in the table) so the boy said " if u want i can bring 2 u a lemonade, and the Sir said, NO! im just askinf for water and lemons. if u are going to charge me more for lemons and water i leave. ! !

[Allen]

Ihab - state exactly what's expected in the contract and be as up front about what you can do for what price - and what he WILL pay if he changes the model and or textures after a specific stage in the process.

 

When my clients give me the 'OK' for rendering the final product - they understand that any changes after that point are additional charges (at that point I charge per hour at a higher rate than my normal - as stated in the contract).

 

This has to happen because you have a budget of time and resources - you forego work on other projects to do his changes for less money - and while delaying other work, possibly hurting other clients.

 

This is not personal, but business and as such, expectations need to be stated in contract form before starting work. Be kind, but be blunt.

[Sawyer]

You could say "Ok that looks great and I agree that the NEW changes you made to the elevation are really worth the time to be shown. I will look them over and send you a NEW proposal when I have established the time it will take me to make the NEW changes."

[Scott Erstad]

Ouch, that is a motha...

Unfortunalty you are right on all counts, under paid changes requests can kill ya. Yet, you do need to put the food on the table. My approach has always been to educate clients before hand regarding changes, when and how to communicate them to our firm, how it can negatively affect the workflow, and that if they work with you, you can save them money in the end. If a client knows certain aspects of a design may possibly need revision(s), you may build your model differently, so as to ease the financial burden of said change requests, and be more responsive and accurate.

 

Also, perhaps those "view studies" can be addressed earlier, afer all, those last minute changes cost your client too. View studies, color studies, form studies all cost time and money, but not as much as iwhen they come at the end without prior communcation. Who knows, perhaps you can extend your contract to include said studies, when I have, my client is always happy with the final product he/she has worked their but off on.

 

Proper contract language and client education at the beginning of a project is the only advice i can give you... and dont ask for money, give a choice, an educated qualified cost projection for any change request and the choice to engage further, after all services rendered, services paid. Whenever you get close to budget max, send a memo stating just that. Short and sweet, after all, this is the language many architects or other professionals can relate to, and therfore, so should we.

 

Good luck

Scott

[DennisHolland]

Yes, tricky...

 

Start a 'one on one' with him and be honest about the situation, just out of selfrespect, but be very diplomatic with you approach in this situation.

 

He claimed the 3rth revision (probably the 3th is free of charges, as stated in the contract you both signed before start of the project?). He must have figured out this nasty argument before hassling you and that is not very cool OR intelligent. The real issue here is that you are highly underestimated by the fellow. Will you be able to look him straight into the eye without feeling sorry for his lack of style the next renderjob?

 

Maybe it's for the better to try override his arrogance and lies with your common sense and deal with the confrontation with a soft touch? This is also another proof that a well set up and professional contract is very handy when you're in a situation like this.

 

I know what I would do in this situation Ihab and that would probably cost me a client and in a situation like this i really don't care at all, it wil prevent me and my business from more bullsh** later. Maybe it's better to dive into your sales again and scrape up a few clients to feel more secure, to have some peace of mind and speak more from the hart than from a nasty underdog position. Obviously it's a very uncomfortable situation for you Ihab and I hope you can work it out AND keep the client after read him a lesson or two about doing business the proper way...

 

Take it easy,

Dennis

[thinice]

"What to say to that person? without losing my only client?"

 

First of all, get other clients as well. If he is your only client, there isn't much you can do if he pretends to be dumb and will not accept your explanations.

 

If you can't get other clients, you may have to rethink if this is what you really want to do.

 

As the rest, the others have said most of it.

[STRAT]

yes. you MUST line out in writing EXACTLY the scope of works he's paying for. anything over and above is extra. he must realise that even changing a little bit to him may take you allot of your time and resources.

 

clients do this. they push it and take advantage. your the boss of your own firm, not him. but all this can be done friendly and nicely and diplomatically. just talk to him.

 

but be strong and definate. you have something he wants. and odds are he'll still want it if you charge extra for it (not o.t.t. obviously). but if he sees he's getting his way he'll peg you as an easy touch for the future too.

 

be strong and definate. chart it all out in writing and get both parties to sign the contract/scope of works first before you begin the job. no matter how small the job is.

 

also, get more clients in. if he's the only client then you may have no choice but to keep him sweet, and if you do that you'll soon go out of business.

 

good luck man, tell us what happens

[Jeff Mottle]

One word: Contract

 

There was a thread not too far from this the other day and I was shocked by the number of people who work without a contract. Simply having one that clearly outlines how you work and how changes, revisions, fees etc will work, will avoid so many problem down the road.

 

Given that it sounds like you are working without one, you really have two options. Let him get away with it this time and set a nasty precident for him to bring up everytime you work with him in the future, or put your foot down and tell him that you simply can not make changes for free. I think there has probably been some ambiguity on both parts, so I would suggest giving slightly, but also indicate that this is a one time thing only ,and in the future you will have a contract and change order form done up so that there is no confusion.

[Darrin Sabin]

Ihabkal,

 

You've already received some good advice here. I just need to add out of pure anger and sympathy... That you're wasting your time with this client. Anyone regularly using such deceitful tactics will use you up eventually and move on to someone else. You can look at this a number of ways, but these are the facts:

 

1. Sooner or later, you're forced to learn this lesson and how your personality best deals with it. Don't overlook the value of the experience. It will always benefit you in dealing with future clients. He may be taking advantage of you monetarily, but take heart in the fact that what he doesn't know is that his days as one of your clients are numbered. Think of it as paying him to help you better identify a "cheat".

 

2. You are your most valuable client. The time you allow for yourself should have just as much weight as anyone else. You could be working on getting additional clients, practicing a new rendering technique, or playing a video game. It doesn't matter. I know it’s hard to imagine with a single client, but I think most will agree, there is something very gratifying once you've stood your ground in a situation like this. You'll take yourself more seriously and subconsciously behave in way from that point that will prevent similar situations from developing.

 

Okay, I'm starting to sound like Dr. Phil now so I'll pass the microphone. I'm sure you'll come out on top as long as you're honest and respectful. Let us know how it turns out and good luck.

 

 

-DS

[mbr]

I don't think that this situation is unusual. I can't recall a project where the client didn't come back with 'updated' drawings, at least not recently. That's fine, I just anticipate it and put a limit to it in the contract (yup, gotta have those). Even then, what you consider a 'change' a client may look at as a 'correction', or whatever. There has to be give and take in any relationship.

Point being that this is inevitable, but the clearer it's set out in the contract, the easier the pressure is on you to explain.

 

My advice: decide if this is completely unreasonable, if so, you need to tell him, if not, just do it and learn for next time (this part of learning never ends).

[spyder2411]

Contract, contract, contract!!!

 

Create a contract stating what is and isn't included upon signing the contract. The architects don't realize that changing materials cost time and $$, they don't work for free, so why should you? The client has seen your work, therefore chose you to complete his project and should understand the final product that you will provide. If the architect decides to hang a left turn about midway in the project, state in the contract that it voids the agreement and shall be worked out on an hourly basis. If you have a set price for the project, always keep track of your hours in case this happens. Now say you have recieved $1,000 to do the rendering and you have only accumulated $500 worth of hourly work before the change, keep track of the hours and bill them for the overage work that you do for them, which should also be stated in the contract.

 

You're gonna get hurt on this project, but learn from it. It's a bad situation as most of us here on the board been there, but you make learn something new to make you more efficient along the way like say a new way to speed up your rendering engine.

 

I'm an architctural draftsman of 11 years and have learned to "hold my own" with them, but the architects can be a bit bullish, don't let the "because I'm the architect" scare you. If you stand your ground they should appreciate your honesty, but don't overdo it! Bullish architects do not like talking back, which kinda reminds you of being a child again, but if you can explain the situation and they still won't agree to your side, then I'd say you'll take what you can get or lose them as a client. Note, that they did give you at least 1/3 of what you wanted, which is more than some do, so take it in stride.

 

"There's nothing like having your under pressure skills compared to an architect in this business."

[Sindala]

i had the same problems when i started a year ago. It's quite hard to get out of without having made a good agreement.

It got much easier when i put these three rounds in my proposal for the fee which i let them sign and fax back.

 

translated it comes to something like this:

 

there are three rounds included in this proposal.

1-first round to get the right camera point

(i use non textured pictures for this so they don't comment on the model yet).

2- first correction round

( here i send them fullt textured and photoshopped pictures, when i send them i tell them this is the first real correctionround and that in this round it's good to gather all comments)

3 - second correctionround to make the pictures definite

 

apart from this i also write that the project won't be started before i recieve all definite digital cad drawings and other info.

 

You'll see when you are strickt about these rounds you'll usually get all your comments in the first go and the second round are small corrections. When there is a third round you can choose between making them pay, or be the nice guy and do these last corrections for free.

 

edit: and always remember they really need your pictures, THEY (architects, etc...) can be as arrogant as they like, but in the end without your pictures they're nowhere.

[bully712]

I don't know if this idea sounds silly, but I had this thought a few months ago when I got burned. The client was not to blame; I under estimated a project and I only hurt myself.

 

Idea: " Menu Contract "

 

Before you order anything from a Restaurant, you look at a menu. On this menu it lists all the entrees and there prices. You pick and choose what you want, and you get what you paid for. After the main meal, you order dessert, which is an additional charge. Is everyone getting how I came up with this idea?

 

Why not have a " Menu Contract " which lists all the services available, and costs. When you meet with the client the first time, Have them look over the menu, and put a check mark beside what services they would like. Add up the Put the total of the bill below, and yourself and the client sign at the bottom. There would also have to be some sort of disclaimer describing the penalties if the contract is breached.

 

Incase of additional services, this is where the " Dessert Menu " would come in play.

 

Does this sound good, or just plain old ridiculous??

[Jeff Mottle]

Does this sound good, or just plain old ridiculous??

 

If the work you do is always the same and the variables are almost identical and the time to do every job is the same then this could work I guess. I see two issues with this.

 

First, is portraits what we do as a commodity rather than an artform and something that is custom tailored for the client. Two, like I said above unless what you do is as repetitive as cookie cutters, you will probably ene up getting burned more often than not on the time it takes to complete a project.

If you are at a point where you could make a "menu" of pricing, then it means you should have a pretty good idea of how much time a rendering of any type takes you to complete. This has been discussed many times before, but if you know the time then you just need to multiply that by the rate that you must bill out to be profitable. Your contract should deal with all of the unknowns so that you can protect yourself and ensure the client is informed about what they are getting and how much they will pay.

A restaurant can use a menu of prices becuase they know all of the costs associated with running their business and what a plate of pasta costs them to make. The only reason a plate of pasta is always $12 is becuase the time and price to make that plate is a known variable. Is the time to do an aimation of a Casino the same as a 40 storey condo or one floor of an office tower.

Personally I know from experience how long things will take to do, as I'm sure you do, so in esseence you are on your own using a menu in your head to come up with a total price for what the client want. I just think that letting the client see your billing in such a granular fashion could lead to a lot of headaches and unwanted hassles.

[Allen]

Another issue with pricing is Point of View (POV). What is the final product? How close will the camera be to the model? What size of print? Where will the product be viewed? - or will it be video?

I say this because we, at times, spend a lot of time modeling details that will not be seen due to scale (distance from the object) or camera angle. One of the first questions I ask my clients is "what's your goal for this project?" "What are you selling?"

Modeling a single kitchen wall is going to cost less than the entire kitchen. Modeling a building that will be seen from the adjacent sidewalk is going to require more detail than if the shot were 150 feet (50 m) away across the street .

Understand your clients needs, review and comprehend the plans, understand your costs, provide the proposal.

[luckytohaveher]

Old Chinese proverb: Fortune Cookie free...Dinner cost extra!

 

Business is business. Negotiation is negotiation. It sounds like he has figured out what your 'real' lowest price is and you have, one way or another, agreed to it. The most important aspect of any price negotiation is never, never, never let the other guy know what your real bottom line price is. Try saying "NO"...

 

If you are worth your salt, he will certainly reconsider what he is willing to pay and what he is not willing to pay for.

 

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Good hunting!