Purchasing advice requested

[Jeff's Friend]

I feel almost idiotic for posting this here in such a serious professional forum, but a friend suggested that this is a great place for such advice.

 

I want to buy a new video card, and I'm debating between GeForceFX 5600 Ultra (?), GeForceFX 5900 Ultra, ATI Radeon 9600 Pro, ATI Radeon 9800 Pro, and ATI Radeon 9800 Pro All-In-Wonder.

 

Price isn't a really big issue, but value is. I would hate to buy a $400 video card today only to have that performance come for $150 next year. But I don't mind if I spend $400 today and it costs $250 next year.

 

I use my PC mostly for games and internet. Occasionally I make Powerpoint Presentations, edit video, and Adobe Photoshop. The main reason I want to upgrade is Madden 2004 by EA Sports.

 

I have read lots of reviews that like the Radeon 9800 Pro, but I am gunshy about ATI since I have had two ATI cards in past and have been underwhelmed. My most recent fiasco is in my laptop with the ATI Mobility Radeon. I paid extra for it only to have EA Sports tell me that it is not supported for Madden and that's why I'm getting wildly fluctuating framerates that virtually make the game unplayable.

 

I'm gunshy about the GeForce cards because they have been getting lukewarm reviews.

 

What do you guys think? And what advantage does the All-In-Wonder convey?

 

Thanks,

Bobby

 

P.S. Anyone know when Intel is coming out with the successor to the Pentium 4?

[Greg Hess]

The important question to ask...

 

Is what do you have now?

 

and

 

How long can you wait?

 

Graphics cards have around a 6-12 month product cycle. This means by the time you usually buy a card, the new model is just a few months away.

 

So the objective is never to have the latest and greatest, but to have what you need, and what fills your budget.

 

You mentioned games. Either FX or Radeon will do just fine. FX tends to work better "overall" compatability wise, the radeon tends to be slightly faster (as long as your not comparing top dogs).

 

Another important factor is system speed.

 

Whats your current system specs?

[garethace]

One good way to look at it - systems come and go, computing power in the form of hardware is virtually going to double, and quadruple every so often. You are always going to be on a winner there, because you can buy more muscle for less money.

 

I wouldn't worry about it too much. You will learn to write off computer purchases too after a bit, once they have done a certain amount of WORK, they owe you very little and all that computing power actually is virtually yours for free. It is so simple it is silly - compared to how difficult things used to be prior to the whole digital revolution in the late nineties.

 

- but your data is priceless, it gets better with ages, and is basically the one thing you cannot afford to be flippant, reckless or in any way 'amateur' about. Get really serious about data storage, and do not 'save' on buying digital storage capacity, in what ever form suits you better. Personally buying 70GB of storage in the form of 100 700MB CDRs for €50, is how i invest in my digital portfolio.

 

Moving onto output - that is much simpler nowadays - because photographic places 'develop' your digital high res stuff like photography. So there isn't a great need for inkjet technology on your desk any longer.

 

I see people who use old hardware, and maybe a couple of MB worth of files, and still manage to hit the nail on the head. You don't necessarily need to complicate your digital world to extremes, to do your work. That is just an urban legend, that will eventually end up in the dustbin of time.

 

I have no less than four different systems in four locations, as well as a pocket pc. But mainly, i use 3 out of 4 of them as information points, and can store what i do on a USB key quite easily to be 'stored' and backup on the main system.

 

Get to know filing systems, decide what you want to have as digital and what not. To be honest, be very, very careful about what parts of your life you allow to become digital on the same workstation as you use to run max or whatever.

 

After about 5 years or so, you will begin to understand these issues, and decide properly what is best for you. In the beginning though, one does tend to swallow too much sales talk, and guys selling you rubbish you will never actually use. Put it down to schooling.

 

If at all possible, outsource your system spec-ing and building to a good reliable sourse like a recognised workstation vendor. With certification for whatever software you require.

 

[ August 19, 2003, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: garethace ]

[Jeff's Friend]

Thanks for the expedient replies.

 

Here's what I have right now:

 

P3-800 MHz (waiting for P4 successor to upgrade)

GeForce 2 w/64 MB VRAM (3 years old?)

512 MB RAM

Sony 19" G500 FD Trinitron moniter

 

I can afford to wait to upgrade if I need to. I don't care if I have the card with the fastest stats. Compatibility is what matters the most to me (especially future compatibility). For example, with the PocketPC, most software is written for the HP Ipaq, therefore, I bought an Ipaq. It's also the same reason I don't own a Mac.

 

Thanks, and I eagerly await your replies.

[bigcahunak]

Just a few short answers here:

• Anything that you pay $400 for today, would most likely be much less than $150 a year from now. Thats how it goes with technology, sorry pal, it gets old the minute you buy it.
• With your CPU I'd suggest you stick with your currentl GF2. You wont feel much difference even with a much fater vid card on this platform. The fastest car cant go too fast on a bumpy road...
• I use the same vid card on a dual AMD for my 3d work and its fast enough for me. You probably need something faster if you play lots of games that needs it, but I'd wait with the card purchase and make it with a new system when time is right for you.

Good that you never boughta mac.

I bought an iPAQ 2 years ago and never touched it since then. battery is probably dead bored...

Good luck.

[mbr]

Because your system is soooo old (hey, I've got a 933 with a Geforece2 64mb!), I would just wait until you can buy a new one.

I looked at Dell's refurbished (I've got a refurbished workstation that is impeccable). For $825 you can get a whole computer that is current, including graphics card.

 

Dimension 4600 (System Identifier FCVKBGML) Dell Dimension 4600 Micro-Tower: Pentium® 4 Processor at 2.4GHz with 533MHz front side bus System Price $899.00 Promotion Discount ($75.00) Discounted Price $824.00 Memory: 512MB DDR 333MHz NON-ECC SDRAM (2 DIMMs) Floppy Drive: No Floppy Drive Hard Disk Drive: 60 GB EIDE Hard Drive (7200 RPM) Video: 128MB DDR GeForce FX 5200 Graphics Card with TV-Out and DVI Modem: 56Kbps Data/Fax Modem Operating System: Microsoft® Windows XP Home CD ROM Drive: 48X Max Variable CD-ROM Drive DVD Drive: DVD+RW/+R with CD-RW

 

 

Damn, it's even got a DVD burner!!

 

Also, keep an eye on http://www.techbargains.com/news_displayItem.cfm/23155 they've got some fantastic deals.

 

Personally, I rarely upgrade pieces. It always seems better to just wait a few months and upgrade the entire package.

Just like the car analogy - if you have a nice V8, but a poor transmission, it won't matter much.

[garethace]

I don't care if I have the card with the fastest stats. Compatibility is what matters the most to me (especially future compatibility).

Like i said, don't place very much thought into future compatibility of your hardware, since something available in 6 months, will always beat what you buy now in terms of compatiblity. Just look at USB 2.0 motherboards, - now you can buy a USB 2.0 caddy for €80 here, and stick in an ordinary IDE hard drive, and almost video edit, on the external USB 2.0 hard drive. I have friends here who use this system to cut final versions of movie edits etc. Of course the USB 2.0 caddies are not certified/guaranteed to do this kind of work.

 

But in fact, these guys still manage to do everything fine. Buying external firewire storage a year ago would mean, paying out big bucks. If i was you, i might upgrade your system using an Adaptec USB 2.0 controller, if you want any new external hard drives, scanners, USB keys, sync cables for your Ipaq etc, etc, etc.

 

I use a serial cradle Cassiopeia, and it can only sync 3-5k notes to OUtlook 2000, without getting all messed up. I paid top dollar for that PDA device too. But with USB 2.0, they are getting 7MB per sec transfer speeds - or 50x50x50x.

 

If i had money, i would spend it on a broadband connection, a faster Plextor CDRW drive, a DVD+/- Sony Writer.... or something useful. Rather than wasting your money trying to make a 3-4 year old system 'compatible' in future. Buy CDR storage, and just go through all your old CDRs, and archive whatever you want to 'keep' onto a new better organised set of media.

 

Perhaps invest in a CDR backup software, that does backups of your hard drive onto CDR. Data Sync Pro is available from the web as a free download, and you can purchase the product key if you like after 30 days.

 

Look at buying a good DVD ripping software, and have all your favourite movies at your finger tips, or on the road when you travel. I think the Pocket Pcs come with Divx decoders/players now - invest in a 1GB CF medium. To watch movies on your Pocket PC. Or perhaps some high speed USB 2.0 keys of around 512MB, and the Adaptec USB 2.o adapter. Basically download 512MB onto a USB 2.0 key in 60 seconds.

 

Go for a good mp3 player.

 

Just look at hardware as cheap rubbish that just depreciates every 6 months, not to mind every 1 year. Learn to 'write off' your IT investments at regular intervals - for instance, your 800Mhz Pentium III owes you nothing at this stage - treat it like free computing power - and it still has got plenty of computing power for most anything.

 

Watch how the really young nerds and geeks manage to latch onto these new technologies, and buy up far greater computing improvements with a lot less money than you would spend on a Graphics board upgrade.

 

My advice is to get really clever with how you use your disposable income, with computers. ANd talk/visit as many hardware message boards etc as you can. Talk to the young geek down the street about his experiences with computers.

 

Spend a less time as you can administering your IT investments - have as little money as you can 'tied up' in hardware, so that upgrades can easy to make later on. €3-400 spent in a years time, will be worth €3-4,000 spent right now - believe me.

 

Pay special attention to the cost per GB on various storage mediums - flash, usb keys, CDR, IDE hard drive storage, Firewire/USB 2.0 caddies and exteral drive storage, Iomega stuff, DVD +/- storage mediums etc, etc, .... broadband services.

 

Some day, all your hard ware will be replaced, but hopefully your data will be worth holding onto. Otherwise, the whole thing is just pointless. One may as well just watch television.

 

There is another thing, TV tuners - to record programs on cheap external USB 2.0 storage.

 

A new set of speakers, a new mouse.... monitor, computer desk, keyboard.... think, think, think... spend wisely. A new desk might over a heck of alot more 'future-proofing' than a new gpu card! And in a couple of years time, with committments, the economy, new hobbies, you may not have the readies to put into a new desk, chair, monitor,....

 

When you walk into a shop, try several, in different cities too,... and make the sales guys work for you - not just shove you off down to the corner where all the graphics boards look so seductive up there on their shelves in retail boxes.

 

P.S. Spend alot of time, on sites like Hauppage, and www.aceshardware.com/forum... before even thinking about all-in-wonder products etc. Check out properly and know sites like Memorex, Creative, any of the mp3 web sites, pinnacle, matrox, logitech, genius, trust and so on. Do your homework.

 

Hell for that matter, don't make the mistake i made - i bought at the height of the IT boom, when everything was four times, what it costs now. I could have gone on a couple of pretty good treks around Europe with the same money. At least i would have some memories/experiences/pictures/tales to relate - and what is the ten or so systems i bought worth now? The data i created back in 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, and 2003 is still worth something however... i think.

 

Generally speaking, almost anything else you can spend your cash on, will offer you ten times better depreciation, security, come-back, value than money spent on IT. Think about that, and question whether you are ready for it. I have talked with hundreds of IT managers over the past 4-5 years, and they can all tell you the exact same thing.

 

BTW, if you wish to go shopping for any DVDRW drives, watch out for something called Mount Rainer compatibility, which apparently does for CDR/DVD writable mediums, what USB 2.0 did for USB.

 

[ August 20, 2003, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: garethace ]

[Jeff's Friend]

Dear Garethace,

 

:ngesmile:

 

Thank you very much for taking the time to offer your advice. However, I have to ask what the point of your advice is. You are advising me to be shrewd about my IT spending. Isn't that what I'm doing by asking experts in this forum before I make a big purchase? And I'm sure that when you go into a computer store and ask the salesperson for advice (as you suggested) that you must have the same experience that I do: the salesperson knows FAR less than we do. They provide no useful information.

 

As for your suggestions on how my money would be better spent on the following items:

 

1. Broadband -- I already have it

2. Plextor CD-RW -- I already have one.

3. DVD writer -- I already have one.

4. Storage -- I already have a 120 GB HD + a 40 GB HD + two Sony Memory Sticks + two SD Cards. I don't think I need more storage than that right now.

5. I already watch movies on my iPaq and also on my laptop.

6. I already have movie ripping software and I'm quite proficient at it, if I do say so myself.

7. I already own an MP3 player, and I also own a Minidisc recorder.

8. A European vacation: I have already toured Europe several times; I am already planning another European trip in February; I have gone on African safaris four times in three countries; I have toured India, the Caribbean, Hawaii, Aruba, and Mexico.

 

So while I do appreciate your attempt to help, I really would like advice on choosing which video card would make a good investment for the next two or three years. What I'm trying to avoid is the anger that I felt when I purchased my Palm III for $350, only to have its successor come out *ONE WEEK* later and cause a $200 price drop.

 

I'm also trying to avoid the frustration of buying a fancy new P4 2.2GHz laptop with the latest video card only to not have it be supported by my favourite game.

 

And so, while I do understand your philosophical musings about how precious and important the data itself is, that doesn't really address my question. How would you feel if you walked into a car dealership to buy a car, and the salesman told you, "You shouldn't spend money on that. Go for a vacation in Australia instead!"

 

Thanks for your help. :ngesmile:

[schmoron13]

a couple of things to note:

 

1) see that little ERR huge red banner while you're posting that says, "anyone caught posting for support using illegal or pirated software..."? well when you tell everyone that you're proficient at ripping movies...

 

2) This is gonna come off real snotty but: if you have all these great gadgets, why the F#ck are you using p3? I don't care what kind of video card is in there, a p4 will whip its ass, and you don't have to shell out 2k. My advice, though I know that you don't want to hear it: either get an xbox/ps2 for a couple of bills, or go get a refurbished dell and throw in that same 64mb card and you'll be amazed at how well it runs

 

I'm also trying to avoid the frustration of buying a fancy new P4 2.2GHz laptop with the latest video card only to not have it be supported by my favourite game.

if you're favorite game doesn't run on a p4 2.2ghz, then don't buy a better card!!!

 

lastly, we are offering you advice based on the information provided. In terms of your analogy, you're asking us what car is the latest and the greatest, but won't depreciate. A car loses 25% of its value the 1st year and no one complains, yet we gripe that a $200 (or $400) video card depreciates. Which makes me wonder 2 things:

 

1) if you're worried that a p4 2.2 can't support your favorite games, why bother with getting something that will be the latest and greatest a year from now?

 

2) I'm assuming again, but you don't strike me as someone strapped for cash. From the plethora of pricey equipment you have, I fail to see how you WON'T be able to afford another card next year? It's not like we're taking about PURE cards, or having to upgrade 3ds max, maya, or any other SUPER expensive packages (NOTE: AUTOCAD)

 

Lastly, WE'RE NOT SALESMEN. We're simply offering you our professional opionions, based on a vast knowledge base. Gregg Hess is the foremost expert on pc's here (in my opinion) and you completely discounted his, and everyone else's opinions.

 

If you just want an answer, here: go get a radeon 9000 with 128mb. It'll be good for at least another year for games, and won't set you back a lot.

 

you asked an esoteric question; one with no definitive answer, in an unrelated forum, and then got annoyed that you didn't hear the answer you wanted. seems imature to me...then again, I just ranted for no better reason than I'm cranky from lack of sleep...

 

good luck

[Jeff's Friend]

Dear Schmoron13,

 

A response to what I believe are your misinterpretations about what I have said:

 

1. I am not using illegal software or pirated copies. Ripping software is not illegal. CompUSA and Best Buy both sell DVD X-Copy. That being said, what makes you think I'm using that software for making illegal copies of movies? I bought and paid for every movie I have ever ripped. I rip the movies from the disc to watch them on my iPaq. What's illegal about that? If a movie's good enough for me to watch more than once, then I'll buy it. What the hell; I've got the cash... :winkgrin:

 

2. I'm using a P3 because I'm waiting for the successor to the P4 which I anticipate will be coming out within the next 6-8 months. If anyone knows differently, then please correct me. If you re-read my initial post and then my follow-up to that post, you'll see that I already mentioned this. I don't want to buy a P4 and new motherboard and then have the P5 necessitate yet another motherboard purchase. I bought the P3 at the end of the P3 lifecycle. Had I bought at the beginning, then I could have upgraded to a faster P3 without changing motherboards. Does that make sense now?

 

3. You misunderstood about my game not running on a P4 2.2 GHz laptop. As I stated in the earlier posts, Madden 2003 does not officially support the ATI Mobility Radeon. My laptop has the Mobility Radeon. Therefore, Madden 2003 does not run very well on my laptop. That's why I want to upgrade my desktop. Every other game runs just fine on my laptop, but the only one I want to play is Madden 2004. Make sense now?

 

4. You seem to think that just because I can afford some expensive gear, that I don't need to pay attention to finances or value. The reason I can afford some of these finer things is that I *DO* pay attention to value. For example, when I bought my P3 800, it cost $250 for the processor. A P3 933 at the time cost $600. For me the choice was obvious. The P3 800 was a better value. Because I bought the 800 instead of the 933, I was able to afford many other things. Thus, value matters, and hence, the reason I posted this topic. I want to buy the video card that the experts (like Greg Hess) think would offer me the best value for my purpose.

 

5. That brings me to Greg Hess. I am flabbergasted to discover that you think I discounted his opinion. Quite the contrary, he asked for me to provide more information about my system and to elaborate more than I had in my initial post. I did exactly that. How is that discounting his opinion? Other people have also seconded his opinion and, frankly, I think that Greg and the other people are right. I have posted nothing to indicate that I was unhappy with Greg Hess's opinion nor with any of the opinions that concurred. I have nothing but grave reverence for Mr. Hess after a very knowledgeable and influential friend of mine referred to Mr. Hess as "The Man." That's good enough for me.

 

6. You suggested that I got annoyed when I didn't hear the answer that I wanted to hear. You couldn't be further from the truth. I very much appreciated all of the legitimate responses to my query, and I think the car analogy is fantastic and makes tremendous sense. I did not get annoyed, but I was confounded by Greathace's post. Did you find any of his philosophy to be pertinent to my question about video cards? I asked which video card I should buy. He replied by giving me his philosphy on storage. When I first read his post, I thought had had accidentally replied to the wrong post! Answer my question honestly: Was Greathace's reply even on-topic?

 

7. Schmoron13, you should get some sleep man! :ngesleep: All work and no sleep make Schmoron13 (self-admittedly) cranky... :winkgrin:

 

So, to get back on topic: Does anyone know when the successor to the P4 is coming?

 

Jeff's Friend

[schmoron13]

I sincerely and humbly apologize for going off on you...minutes after posting, I knew I'd gone a little crazy with that post.

 

To clarify:

 

1)I assumed that you were burning movies from friends for a couple of (now faulty) reason, with those being that a) you like video games and thus I assumed you were a teenager (myself recently removed from that "class" but still in my 20's, I know the lure of kazaa all too well), and I didn't realize that people actually do rip movies for themselves...figured that was just a ploy advertizers used to sidestep the obvious potential for media theft.

 

2) the sucessor for the p4 is the xeon, and for amd, it's the Opteron comparison of the two

 

3. once again, I would recommend getting a ps2 or xbox since they'll still be cheaper than a new video card for an obsolete computer...not sure how much performance gain you'll get with a better card on such an old system.

 

4. we seem to miscomunicate on this topic. I simply noted that in lieu of your other expensive gear, a price drop of $100 or even $200 is expected and shouldn't put a substantial economic strain on your finances. That being said under the impression that you buy equipment new and not oem (not that there's anything wrong with that, just covering my ass again)

 

5 and 6) we should probably avoid greg as the center of this topic as he's not even responding in this thread anymore. In any case, almost every post said the same thing: don't upgrade your current gear as it's just not viable. Fruthermore, they followed it with the warning that looking at depreciation in computers is pointless. There's no resale value and if you want to keep up with the Jones', you have to overhaul your system constantly, and by that I mean every couple of months.

 

Finally reading Greathace's reply, I can say that he was on-topic, but got WAY TOO carried away with his depreciation examples. You just have to read between the line

 

as for when the xeon's come out: they already are out...

 

 

and yes, I NEED SLEEP!!!!

 

sorry to have come off as an ass (no ifs, ands or butts)

[Greg Hess]

Hey Fella's,

 

Its always fun to run around all day patching hundreds of computers and eliminating worms...then eliminating the worms which are just worms to kill the earlier worms.

 

And the fun part will be after we see everything the latest patches screwed up in a few days.

 

Aren't computers great?

 

And people wonder why I do design on the side .

 

 

As to the comments. Thanks for both defending, apologizing, and praising me at the same time. Always fun to read through pages and pages of threads.

 

As to gare's posts...think of him as a grand oracle of knowledge. The question usually gets answered, but not always directly, read and you shall find!

 

Here are my comments.

 

First off...do you really need the latest and greatest? Remember that you always pay a price for the latest performance gadgets on the market...usually stability. If its new, its gonna have some sort of bug/issue that hasn't seen the light of day yet.

 

Just look at the current crop of i865/i875 boards (from intel) they got all sorts of weird issues if you try to run low latency DDR. A real kick in the ass if you shelled out extra cash for the low latency lovin.

 

With that in mind, there are some extremely inexpensive upgrades that you could execute. Oooh execute..I sound all robotic.

 

If thats some decent PC133 SDRAM (especially if its in a single dimm), you could probably pick up an inexpensive 2400+ XP and ECS K75SA for about 130 USD. (If your in the states).

 

The boards got some issues with both dimms populated (if its sdram) but it supports a 2400+ XP max, and retails for a whopping 50 bucks.

 

130 USD is far less then a new graphics card would net you (At least a modern one) and would slap a pretty massive performance increase on all things computer based.

 

That of course is a short term solution. The cheapest one I can come up with. (In case you wanted something now).

 

Intel's next chips...

 

Well first off they'll be hella expensive. (As is all their new stuff)

 

Second, they're going to be HOT AS HELL. You think AMD chips are hot...you ain't seen nothing. These new chips wattages are so high, some retail manufacturers of computer systems have begun working on water cooling. (RETAIL, like dell, sony, gateway, etc).

 

Oh crap...all my cool sites which back up my comments are down.

 

I'll type more later when I'm less excited.

 

In quick summary (if you can't wait)...

 

Wait for the latest, wait for eternity.

[garethace]

Here is how i would do things personally - it is like landscaping a site for a house before actually building a house - the garden rooms are then mature when you build the house, and become extensions of the circulation in the house. On the other hand, most people build the house first and spend the remainder of their married life, retirement and old age, realising the perfect landscaping for the house they built when they were still very young.

 

My advice is to buy the site, and plant it ten years prior to building the house. Crazy?

 

Anyhow, with your computer system.... my advice is to buy a new computer now and just spend the next year of your life getting to know that system, gradually porting more and more of that equipment onto it. Everything in the marketing of IT, suggests impulse buying on the spur of the moment, but nothing in common sense or logic would ever dictate that... Don't worry if it is P4, if it is out of date in a years time... allow me to explain.

 

Avoid the trauma, of the 'big upgrade if you can'. Keep using the P3 as is, over the next year. Gradually test out your mp3, DVD rom,... everything on the new P4 system over the next year... keep a complete record of anything that arises.

 

The advice to upgrade to a Sis, nVidia, new Intel chipset motherboard is all very well and good. But just look at the administration difficulties here - you are talking about getting to know a whole entire new world of products - the chipset drivers, behaviour, performance of all these products are all entirely different under windows.

 

He will waste a year, just getting to 'know' the ins and outs of a Sis based 50 dollar system, or an economical uATX nForce board, just to change it for 'a totally new' system in a year? Does a €50 board, and waisting all of your valuble time getting familiar with the new chipset drivers, and glitches sound economical - while having to transfer all the pheripheral etc, etc onto a whole new system in a year - i don't think so.

 

How would that be economical, in any sense of the word? I know that my experience, of working with small offices, and having to deal with IT admin there isn't much to do with buying a new graphics board, but listen...

 

With Unix and linux you can ghost an os installation across a whole lot of different systems - a unix hard drive can be swapped from one system to another one, and really doesn't mind all that much.

 

Not alone are you saving costs, by using up old systems, and new system with a common linux/unix installation - but you also have very little patching, service pack installation, device drivers,..... by having all standard regulated hardware and oses/drivers/updates... the mac platform incorporates a lot of that philosophy. It was Gates, who managed to throw a spanner in the works, and it is to him we should thank, for the current dilema in computing.

 

Transfer a windows hard drive from one system to another, it hiccups all over the place, and finally gives you a blue screen of death. So with windows buy all the same kit, and upgrade everything all at once, even if that sounds extravagant at the outset... it will be cheaper in administration and downtime costs as time goes on. There is nothing worse than having a digital camera, scanner, or graphics board that only works well on a certain system/os version.

 

What i am trying to say to you Jeff's friend, is that the investment you have made, is in a complex web of drivers, hardware,.... that is all working fine together presently right? - as sun says, the network is the computer. Now what you are intent upon doing, is wrecking up that system, so you can re-build it all over again, just like a house of cards? yeah, been there and done it. It sounds like me both suffer from the exact same affliction - nerdiness - but i have matured a little bit, and tried to counter it.

 

The philosophical discussion about data management above, was just a taster - to see how you would 'take' to the cold light of reality - the world outside nerdiness, and overly complex nerdy personal home 'God boxes'. How to see the ying and the yang of it - how to control computers, instead of they controlling you.

 

(insert Steven Siegal type pose here)

 

Generally speaking, even with an ECS board, an nForce board, a new Brookdale Intel chipset - i nearly have to spend a full year using the system before i become fully confident - i know exactly what are its strengths, glitches, weaknesses and limitations.

 

That is, before i begin to accept the system as my friend, as my third hand. As a place where my life, my work, my data all are held.

 

Jeff's friend has invested so much money, and time, and administration... into loading all the drivers... etc, etc for all his stuff into that one little P3 box. The reason, he hasn't upgraded to P4, is really because this whole elaborate 'IT festival' of bells and whistles has become a kind of a personal haven/prison, depending on which way you look at it. And on the one hand, he wants to burn the lot, while on the other he wants to keep it intact.

 

There is a very good reason why good companies don't end up buying a batch of Sis based systems, in January say. Then another bunch of Intel based systems in June, then another couple of nForce based systems in November, before trying out a few more VIA chipsets before xmas, and picking up a couple of Ati chipset mobiles in the sales again in January.

 

Good companies, just burn the whole lot, start affresh, and write off the old investment. For personal computer owners, doing this is one of the hardest pills to swallow ever.

 

I administered an office with MAC OS9, OS7, OS8... we had win 98, win NT, and win 2k, and guys even were getting wxp. I even had to scrummage with a Novell server to get some tape backups restored!

 

The owner of the business couldn't bare to see any of her precious systems laid to rest - see loved seeing some poor fool, having to 'work' with a 133mhz motorola os 7 MAC... waiting for it to do anything was slow. That was a big problem when everyone was using slow machines, but at this stage, other guys were using G4s.

 

Lesson from all of this? Streamline things - impose standards - if a problem occurs then, at least the problem is consistent, and it becomes less of a problem - more of a patch/upgrade one has to 'administer' - it becomes predictable.

 

However, this is sometimes difficult to do in graphics design circles. I would prefer to see people all on a common system, a standard set of software tools, consistent training proceedures etc. That way the data becomes the entire focus of operations, and the 'technology' just fades into the background - technology at best is transparent, invisible, noiseless. That is why they call the program used to mirror os/software installations across a network of computers 'Ghost'.

 

Because that is what it is - a ghost.

 

In four years time, the data will still be remember, even though the systems will be in their graves. But i think, for people like Jeff's friend, the experience of using the computer system has become more enjoyable than using the data. This is not how computers were design/engineering originally, but unfortunately - the computer industry has deteriorated into this abyss,... lack of focus, and i blame the downturn in the economy, the IT slump etc, etc... on this very fact. Of people impulse buying, rather than building infrastructure. I have done it myself, but it is not sustainable in the longer term.

 

I did offer Jeff's friend some friendly advice, in how to prepare to move away from the 'nerd's den' type of situation - it is up to him to make the first step.

 

What i do find strange, is how he introduced himself originally as a complete newb - whereas it turns out he has as big a hardware/IT fetish as severe as i ever suffered from.

 

I feel almost idiotic for posting this here in such a serious professional forum, but a friend suggested that this is a great place for such advice.

Your message board rhetoric may fool some people, but believe me i have clocked more hours, and more words typed on a message board than i would willfully own up to - i have seen it all.

 

You are not actually looking for purchasing advice, at all, but some kind of self-justification for building this whole little IT world around yourself. There is a book by Susan Conway, called 'Unlocking Knowledge Assets' - i suggest you study it, and learn what computing is really all about.

 

I want to buy a new video card, and I'm debating between GeForceFX 5600 Ultra (?), GeForceFX 5900 Ultra, ATI Radeon 9600 Pro, ATI Radeon 9800 Pro, and ATI Radeon 9800 Pro All-In-Wonder.

You are not really debating anything, you are just using computing as a means to 'beat yourself up' over something in your life, that has precious little to do with computing. Believe me, i have been there. Computers have a very simple straightforward purpose in our daily lifes,... when you began to speak of what kind of work loads, tasks you do on your computer, it did sound convincing... stick to that as your starting point.

 

Personally speaking, i wouldn't know a mouse from a queen cake, if i hadn't spent years of my life making architectural cardboard models, and then i discovered VIZ, and i went 'wait a minute,... digital models'.

 

BTW, on the gaming thing,... try this thread here.... some of the guys on aces are gaming programmers for MicroSoft, xbox, and pc.

 

http://www.aceshardware.com/forum?read=105031485

 

http://www.aceshardware.com/forum?read=105031924

 

I think those are the kinds of forums, you will really find people you can talk freely with about your computing needs. Tell 'em gareth sent you!

 

[ August 21, 2003, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: garethace ]

[bigcahunak]

Nice to se you guys love to type long stories instead of getting some sleep... did anyone gain anything out of it?

I was going to recomend an amd system, like Greg did, only with a different configuration. I too have the ECS board he mentioned, which is cool, but performance wise is getting too old and its partly because of its support of older SDRAM memory.

Question is what are you going to do with the rest of your parts... are your P3 CPU and mobo on there way to ebay... (only a few bucks) Thinking about another system next to the P3 one?

There is no right or wrong way here, however I just wanted to mention that 256Mb DDR memory sticks are pretty cheap and the microATX mobos based on nForce 2 chip (like the Albatron) cost about the same as the ECS, perform much better and already have the GF4 MX on it. You will need to add some DDR memory to the purchase though...

 

Again... Good luck

[Jeff's Friend]

Thanks for the great suggestions everybody. I have given a great deal of thought to buying a PS2 or an X-box. But ultimately, I like seeing my games in 1600 x 1200 progressive scan instead of the 320 x 240 of NTSC interlace. But it is a GREAT suggestion since a PS2 is cheaper than buying a new vid card anyway.

 

As to the people that suggested that a new vid card wouldn't really help my aging system. I have taken your advice to heart and I will likely upgrade my entire machine as per your suggestions.

 

And to the person who made the very astute and insightful comments about building from scratch versus just buying a complete system for cheaper: I have bought into your philosophy. It certainly does take a lot more work to update drivers and make sure you have components that all work together and so on. It truly may not be worth it for me any more. So thank you all for the good advice so far.

 

And regarding your comments Mr. Hess, I can *DEFINITELY* afford to wait. I am in no hurry. In fact, I didn't upgrade my original P54 (Pentium 120) until the P3 price had stabilized (in my eyes) and the P3 800 had come out. I may be too patient (even sloth-like) about upgrading my hardware; and that may be why I don't even have a P4 yet.

 

Therefore, assuming I buy a new system (most likely from Dell), which video card (ATI Radeon or GeForce FX) will give me the least game compatibility headaches? My understanding is that for games they are quite close in performance. Are most games written for one card and then ported for compatibility to the other? I am thinking of purchasing within the next six months or so.

[bigcahunak]

If you go for the value line of the FX vs. Radeon - I'd say go FX. for the Performance line I'd take Gregs suggestion, even though I dont know what it is... yet...

[garethace]

Ati have never been able to write great drivers, whereas nVidia invest people, technology, and time into giving you the best drivers for your investment. Ati have come back recently as regards to writing drivers.

 

But really, the reason for Ati's sucess recently has a lot to do with not jumping up to the newest Silicon fabrication technology. nVidia made the jump to 0.13 Si too fast in many peoples opinion. And just missed their window completely releasing their first FX product - was meant to be released last xmas.

 

So just release that you are probably buying something a little old in the FX, re-packaged as a 'brand new product'. Ati on the other hand, haven't had fabrication problems, and stuck with a tried and trusted 0.15 Si process.

 

nVidia have asked IBM to fab all their stuff now, and so have AMD for that matter. IBM are going to specialise in outsourcing some of their design and fabrication facillities to people from now on. I think IBM may even make the new Apple Chips too. So there you have it, keep an eye on nVidia at the moment to see how things work out on their manufacturing end of things. They have the people and the expertise when it comes to writing drivers.

 

But at the moment alot of the claims they make about their cards memory bandwidth and chip bandwidth, are false. nVidia have implemented driver hacks and such to make the specs of their hardware appear much better than they actually are. Ati 9800 Pro is the best card to run with right now i think, for a gamer.

[Greg Hess]

Ati 9800 Pro is the best card to run with right now i think, for a gamer.

 

And Nvidia FX is the best card if you want to game...and do other things.

[garethace]

The Ati card is bad for other things, i can agree with that.

 

I still game with a Quadro card, so i guess that speaks for itself!

[Jeff's Friend]

That's an interesting summary regarding ATI vs. FX, Garethace. I, too, have had the impression that ATI's drivers have been their achilles heel.

 

I will be doing mostly Powerpoint presentations, Adobe Photoshop manipulation, and some video editing, and, of course, gaming.

 

That being said, is the general consensus that GeForce FX is a better all-around performer?

 

Also, Mr. Hess in an earlier post seemed to imply that GeForce FX would offer greater compatibility than ATI. Is that what you intended to imply, sir?

 

What "other things" would the the nVidia cards be better at than the ATI cards?

 

Thanks,

Bobby

[garethace]

Generally speaking, nVidia may not offer the performance in certain areas, that Ati might... but i can guarantee you, for someone who uses a computer to do a wide, wide, wide variety of taskloads, at the same time,... go for the top of the line nVidia card, and its drivers will work with everything for the next..... whatever, 5 years.

 

OTH, if gaming is all that you want to do with an uber-gaming box, then you should carefully investigate building a fast system around a top of the line Ati card. Ati are here to stay, and might eventually even become dominant in this market.

 

However, i think the gpu market will be much poorer for it, since noone can do driver work like nVidia can. Basically, Ati bought up ArtX, a small Silicon Valley startup of guys from SGI, which produced gpu for the Gamecube. That was the best move Ati ever made.

 

On the other hand, nVidia bought up for a similar amount, around 400 million, the 3dfx company, or what was left of it. People claim the 3dfx team are responsible for the current technology in the Geforce FX. But best sources also indicate, unlike Ati's merger with ArtX - the nVidia engineers and 3dfx guys did not 'gel' as good. Hence missing the xmas 2002 window of opportunity for Geforce FX product release, the subsequent battle with their chip fab,... and hence the 10,000 only batch of initial Geforce FX chips.

 

In your case, you have a dilema since you want A) Good performance across all applications best offered by nVidia and B) Best longterm compatiblity for gaming, probably best offered by Ati. So you can see the complexity of your problem.

 

Bear in mind too, that all gpu companies are simply jumping whichever direction MS wants them to - with DX9. I think personally Ati have got more of an insider track with MS these days - and i think will be making the new xbox gpu chip, rather than nVidia like last time. Do not underestimate this fact. What you are looking for in gaming is MS DX9 compatibility - there will not be a DX10,... most cards/games cannot properly use DX8 yet never mind DX9.

 

So like everything else, in the future, it looks like an xbox, or a playstation will offer the best performance!

[Greg Hess]

Nvidia over ATI.

 

Quadro for widest range of compatibility (if your doing any sort of 3d app).

 

FX for widest range of compatibility if your not heavily into 3d applications.

 

I'm very biased against ATI.

[garethace]

Ati pro guys/gals over at aces would have something to say about that!

 

[ August 29, 2003, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: garethace ]

[garethace]

http://www.3dcenter.org/artikel/cinefx/index_e.php

 

Seems to have a good article about nVidia technology.

 

Beyond 3d was a web site i couldn't remember, quote from another tech message board:

 

At least Beyond3d gave this a go with a pretty solid look at the GPU with little personal opinions. And that site has been overrun with ATI fanatics.

[Jeff's Friend]

Well thank you all for some really great advice. I have decided upon a GeForce FX video card and I will likely purchase a GeForce FX 5600 or 5600 Ultra since they seem to offer the best combination of value and performance.

 

My question now becomes: Is there a big difference between Ultra and non-Ultra?

 

Also, which brand of GeForce FX 5600 board would you recommend for me? PNY? MSI? ASUS?

 

A second question is: Where do you get your hardware reviews from? I used to read the reviews at www.tomshardware.com, but I think their recommendations have been slightly dubious of late.

 

P.S. I have not discounted Greg Hess' (and MANY other people's recommendation of upgrading my processor). Rather, my situation has changed somewhat. I think my current video card has gone bad and therefore I need a new vid card first and NOW! I'll not clog up this thread with my curiousity about what has gone wrong with my card. I'll start a new thread for that.