What Next For FormZ?

[Adehus]

All-

 

There's a thread in Autodessys's FormZ forums about how different users feel about FormZ's roadmap. It seems to divide into two camps: 1) Users who use FormZ primarily for modeling and export to different apps for rendering & animation, and 2) Users who look at FormZ as an all-in-one app.

 

Personally, I'm more interested in FormZ upgrading it's modeling capabilities (camp 1). I'm not to the point yet where I feel as though I've outgrown it's functionality, but I see the day coming soon. FormZ's strength was always it's modeling capabilities, and other packages seem to be adding functionality (especially subdivision surfaces and construction history) that is surpassing it. Nonetheless, Autodessys appears (from what they're willing to tell us) to be pushing ahead with expanded animation capabilities as the cornerstone of their next major release. To those of us who aren't concerned with rendering/animation within FormZ, this seems to be a bad sign.

 

I thought I'd post this here, versus on the autodessys site, because I know that there are several FormZ users here and would like to hear opinions from others who use the app as part of their archviz workflow. Please let me know what you think.

 

Thanks, Andy

[ihabkal]

I think some animation advancements are welcome. I would like not to have to export my file into max for animations. but I guess in order for them to get the flexibility of the max history modeling, they might need to reprogram the whole thing...that's maybe why they're stopping there in the modeling package. For architectural modeling that I do I see formZ gives me more tools than I need...so it's not a problem if they go into other areas, unless they drop the whole package one day, if the user base shrinks...

[Adehus]

That's interesting, Ihab... I assumed that most FormZ users here exported to another app to render, if only because of the limitations of the Lightworks rendering module. Good to hear a different point of view.

 

Any others?

 

BTW, Ihab- have you had any success doing animations on FormZ with network rendering?

[Ernest Burden III]

My good friend, and sometimes partner, Sven Johnson uses FormZ a lot. In fact, working with him is why I bought FZ. He also uses Cinema. But I know he is fairly good with RenderZone and uses it for his work. Although as often as not he's using it as a visual guide and then watercoloring the final.

 

I've had it with FZ. Slow, slow slow. I may upgrade to 5 just to get a more stable version than 4, but after that, no. It has all the right features, but the workflow is awful (for me). I know that once you get used to it, it does great stuff. I just can't get to that point. Cinema, however, is so much easier to use, and the renders are much better.

 

So for me, FormZ is an expensive file translator (and its even really slow at that).

[Trick]

For quick AND complex arch.modeling where the goal is viz or animation, I think FormZ is the best and fastest tool around. However I must admit that it has a VERY clumsy interface which is still rooted in it's first (MAC) releasse some decades ago. Furthermore I'm still very satisfied with v3.6.8, especially because v4/5's wireframe redraw speed makes you cry. I'm exporting to MAX and LW so I surely don't need more bells (and crashes). If they don't make it lots faster in the next (v5.5) release, I (and many others) will slowly move ALL modeling to MAX and LW...

[Adehus]

Trick-

 

I have similar concerns... redraw speed is going in the wrong direction for complex models, and they haven't really been able to get a handle on how to make the interface work cleanly with their expanded toolset. I also agree, though, that in spite of these issues FormZ is still the fastest way I know of to get a nice clean model knocked out quickly, regardless of complexity.

 

To that end, I really hope that they can push forward with cleaning up the modeling interface and regaining lost speed. Autodessys seems to be in 'feature-itis' mode, and I'd prefer it if they'd make everything they've already implemented easier-to-use/more stable/faster... focus on their core competency. LightWorks is never going to be a top-tier rendering solution, and I have little faith in their ability to implement competitive animation functionality either. Why focus on it?

 

Andy

[Trick]

As a modeling application FormZ in some way stood on its own and actually had very little competition.

 

With the render- and animation add-ons it is competing with a lot of the big boys now and I am (very) afraid that the modeling roots (read speed and stabilty) are going to suffer because of that. Once I saw that FormZ went the modular way I guessed some parties would develop render- and animation plugins wich would keep the core app clean and compact: it seems I guessed wrong

 

I'm really speeding up in MAX and LW and at the current pace FZ will surely lose in my game !!

[Adehus]

I think you hit on the sore point for them- nobody has jumped in to develop plugins. Maxwell and RPC plugins are supposedly 'in the works', but even so, it's a case of too little too late. At any rate, it seems that ADS is having to code the functions that they were hoping third party developers would do, to the detriment of their core modeling offering.

 

BTW, you may be interested in a thread on the FormZ Forums that is discussing much of this. It's under the 'FormZ General Discussion', and is titled 'Form*Z 5.5 and 6.0'.

 

Might want to catch it quickly, though- good threads like this tend to disappear on Monday mornings...

[Adehus]

...I may upgrade to 5 just to get a more stable version than 4, but after that, no

 

Ernest-

 

I can't speak specifically to the robustness of the import/export features, but generally speaking I don't think that 5 is a more stable version than 4 is.

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

i have used formZ since version 2 something. i remember the leap to version 3, oooo aaaahhh, color tools and limited animation capabilities. i used to be an active visitor and poster on their forum before i came here. i have not been back in a long time. i had issues with their forum, and had to contact their office to address them. i will not go into details, i would rather keep this post more professional than that.

 

formZ was the first 3d app i learned, so i never really had issues with the interface. though i can cl;early see how it could be streamlined, and made more efficient. i have my preferences set so that 50% of the tools i use for modeling are on the screen at any given time, and the other 50% are custom hot-keyed.

 

for me, formZ's strongest strengths of its strengths are accuracy, easy creation of complex boolean shapes, and the simplicity of it layer manager. there are lots of parts of formZ that i never touch because they are either to finicky, or just suck. accuracy being one of its shapes becomes one of its weaknesses when doing more organic modeling. so that places me in camp 1 per the first post of this email.

 

formZ version 4 was an absolute disaster plagued with delay after delay, and then a final product that was not stable, and yes, was actually slower in response than earlier versions. the app went from a quick and efficient program, to a larger, bulky program that bogged down.

 

many apps that you use for a long period of time you will see gradually grow worse as they try and make it do more things. my favorite version of quicktime is still version 2.5. back then it was a simple movie player, and nothing else. it was quick to open, and worked. just what a movie player should do. version 3.9.5 of formZ is my favorite version. it was the old code that had been refined for several years. it is stable, quick, and does what i needed it to.

 

i have version 5 installed on my machine, but have not used it. version 4.xx left such a bitter taste in mouth that i don't think version 5 is going to be any better. with version 4 formZ rewrote their entire code from ground up. they said the code in the old program was starting to get a little sloppy. they wanted to re-code it, streamline the code, in an effort to make it run smoother and faster. formZ themselves are the only ones i have ever heard say that their ex[periment was a success. as pointed out earlier in this thread, the response time of the model is dismal. it reminds me of working in 3dsmax. 3dsmax has poor response time also.

 

unfortunately i think that formz's user base has been shrinking since the release of version 4. look no further than our own forum site for proof of this. i can not remember the last this forum was posted in before this thread, and their is an active thread in general discussions about someone switching from formZ to autocad. at the rate it is going, i don't see it lasting as an app. the only thing really keeping it going right now is that they give good deals to universities and students to use their program.

 

i think formZ needs to do something about the lightworks engine. it is now way behind the game of rendering and lighting. i think their primary lighting method is still radiosity, although they did just add HDRI, and some other type of general GI, but i am not sure if these are even enabled to in the latest version of formZ. they should dump Lightworks, and strike a deal with another 3rd party app, a la 3dsmax and MentalRay.

 

actually, i think the strongest thing formZ could do to their program right now is to create a plugin version of their program, that serves as a modeler within another program, whether it is 3dsmax, lightwave, autocad, ect.... this is basically how i use it now. i build the main part of the model in formZ, fileLink it to 3dsmax, compose the scene in Max, and add any extras to the scene in max, then i light and render using vray. it would be cool if i could start in max 9or my preferred program), and launch a formZ plugin to do my architectural modeling, and have the geometry always be in max. kind of like how you work with Vray and 3dsmax. you are always lighing, and rendering with vray. i would be doing most of my modeling with formz.

 

that would potentially make the company smaller, but on the other hand, it would also expand their market base. it would make its powerful architectural modeling tools accessible to a larger audience. gamers who need to build city worlds could use the formZ plugin to build their architecture more efficiently. special effects guys who are making buildings or rooms for composting scenes could use the formz plugin. yes, they could just use the full version now, but what do you think the actual chances of that are? not good.

 

anyway, i am rambling, and really don't know if anyone is actually reading my entire post. basically, i think formZ is dead if it keeps following the path it is on. i don't think it can reach enough new users, and it is losing to many existing ones. as for improvements following their exiting path... i would like to see them add some of the features found in other apps that work with arch modeling... window placement will automatically punch the hole for you. door placement allow you to choose different hardware on the fly, ect..

 

oh, and one last thing... especially if any one from formZ is reading my post... ADD FILE REFERENCING / LINKING ALREADY. WE WANT IT.

[Ernest Burden III]

many apps that you use for a long period of time you will see gradually grow worse as they try and make it do more things.

 

I actually read the whole post!

 

One exception to the above is Datacad. It's been around since about 1984. I started using it in early 1987. It was better than Autocad then, and in some ways, still is. I have been a beta tester of many versions and have seen the program go from good to great. The current version is the best ever, the most stable, features that WORK, etc.

 

Unfortunately, the 3D portion stagnated about 5 - 10 years ago. It's still really good for a poly modeler, but has never gone the next step and has chosen to develop the 2D side to catch up to ACAD in that area. I guess most of their users needed strong 2D. Anyway, I am forced to seek other 3D apps to supliment DCAD (though all models start there still) and I though FormZ would be it. But it isn't. Earlier, I though Rhino would be it, but it wasn't. Cinema4D isn't a CAD app so it won't be.

 

This FormZ situation is sad.

[Trick]

Interesting reading...

 

After some thoughts I think they should drastrically change their product line, especially since it went modular. Instead of three apps with different renderers they should make a base modeler with solid material and mapping capabilities and some basic modular render engine, which could be replaced by more capable ones (Autodessys' or third-parties). The base app. should focus on fast, solid and stable modeling, as it once (3.6-3.9) used to be.

 

Another thing I do NOT understand: why, after a decade, are there still so many tools that have their own dialog windows for adjusting parameters? At least they could have made this interactive in the main modeling windows instead of a modal, non-resizable window. There are so many basic things that could be improved. All (2D/3D)enclosures - for example - should keep their parameter stack down to the 2D (poly)line so you can always adjust it at the - deepest - base; even if it contains holes or inserted lines, points or faces. This alone would be a reason to upgrade my double license from v3 to v5. ALL tools should also be interactive: detailing of circles, ellipses, B-splines, choosing the enclosure side, placing elements...instead of dropping and/or undo after which you need to change parameters.

 

I could also rant some pages about what I do and don't like about FZ. But with all the softwares and plugins I use I would lose a lot of energy which I prefer to put into my projects. So I simply choose the best tools for the moment. Since Autodessys always had great customer support I hope they will still listen to their oldest and most loyal users. But since "enhanced animation capabilities" is their BIG v6 feature, I really doubt this.

[Adehus]

Travis-

 

Thanks for the thoughtful reply- not hard to read such a long post when it has such good insights. There are so many issues, and so many potential solutions for them, that I don't even know what to think. Regardless, I think it's safe to say that they're at a crisis point now.

 

Something that you alluded to, which I'll risk expanding on, is that ADS seems unusually unwilling to listen to constructive criticism. I've been constantly shocked by how they run the forum, and have had many seemingly benign posts deleted for god only knows what reason. Other times, they do respond... with a snidely worded 'shot across the bow'. At any rate, you get slapped on the wrists a few times, and the message becomes clear- if you want the benefit of their tech support online, don't rock the boat (at all). I can't help but think that this attitude is reflected in the current state of their product.

 

I've been using FormZ since '95, so I've pretty much grown up with it also. It's frustrating to watch it's core functionality diminish with each new release. I'm so comfortable with the app that I'll probably continue to model with it for some time, but I seriously doubt I'll be upgrading it anytime soon (if ever...).

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

Something that you alluded to, which I'll risk expanding on, is that ADS seems unusually unwilling to listen to constructive criticism. I've been constantly shocked by how they run the forum, and have had many seemingly benign posts deleted for god only knows what reason. Other times, they do respond... with a snidely worded 'shot across the bow'. At any rate, you get slapped on the wrists a few times, and the message becomes clear- if you want the benefit of their tech support online, don't rock the boat (at all). I can't help but think that this attitude is reflected in the current state of their product.

 

unfortunately their board tends to be very passive aggressive. ...or at least it used to be that way.

[jackb602]

These posts are really interesting to me. I've been using FormZ since 1993, and in some ways I have a lot of fondness for it because I "grew up" using it. But it also causes me alot of frustration. This has become more clear as I've tried to gradually make the transition to Cinema 4D.

 

The interface could be much more intuitive and easy to use. I took a 4-day course in FormZ a couple of years ago at Architect's Toolbox in the Bay Area, and that really taught me how to use the program efficiently. And in some ways it is a very fast and accurate modeler. But it's also a "dumb" modeler in the sense that it is totally linear; there's little opportunity to go back and test different ideas. Cinema is the opposite of this, with its object oriented approach and the very powerful Xpresso. On the other hand, Cinema still lacks most of the direct object generation capabilities of FormZ.

 

FormZ's outdated rendering engine (and lack of animation) is the main reason I started looking for alternatives. I literally spent a couple of years trying to master radiosity, only to find that a day or two of tinkering with Cinema gave me better results. I think FormZ would be better off trying to just be a modeler.

 

Probably the most striking contrast between FormZ and Cinema is stability. Autodessys does not like to hear this, but FormZ is a very unpredictable, crash prone app. After 12+ years of using it, I still can't predict how the enclosure tool will decide to align a wall to a line. This problem is compounded by tech support's stock response; if they cannot reproduce your problem, it more or less doesn't exist. This is unbelievably frustrating to a user that just wants the program to work, and has more pressing things to do than become a beta tester. To Autodessys' credit, when they can reproduce a problem, they are very quick to respond with a solution or workaround, faster than any other developer I know of.

 

I guess that's enough criticism for now. I still rely on FormZ, because it has some important modeling capabilites that Cinema lacks. However, I'm much more confident that Cinema will keep evolving to meet my needs than FormZ will.

 

Jack

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

don't get mwe wrong, i have always appreciated formZ for the type of modeling i do. i just think they botched things in the last gfew years. i hope they can get back on track.

 

out of curiosity, does anyone know how many people (programmers mainly, but really everyone) work at some of the other 3d software companies? just curious, i don't know how many poeple work at formZ, but i pass their building a couple of times a week. not necessarily huge, but might be average for tis type of company, i am not really sure.

[Adehus]

Not sure about the size of other development teams, but if you're sizing up autodessys by the size of the building, it's probably worth mentioning that they share the space with atleast a couple of other businesses.

[4DM]

About 3 years ago I was on the verge of buying into FormZ, having spent a few years before that modelling in Vectorworks and rendering with Artlantis and eventually running up against it's limitations.

 

I tried out the FormZ demo and was just about to stump up the £1700 or so for the full renderzone+radiosity package, when I came across Cinema 4D.

 

It felt like a breath of fresh air compared to FormZ, with a clean, modern and intuitive interface, plus a construction history and the ability to tweak initial splines at the "base" of container objects, with immediate interactive feedback.

 

The speed and stability is amazing - I have probably crashed it four times in 3 years. (A couple of times with a dodgy plug-in, and another with a corrupted font.)

 

The best aspect, however, is that you feel it is a piece of software that is going places. Every new release brings really good features and improvements, and Maxon provide a service that is second to none. Tech support is friendly, and the company is very responsive to the user base.

 

I am so glad I didn't get FormZ in the end - it looks archaic to me now, and to hear these stories of woe does reinforce that feeling, I'm afraid.

 

I still do some of the accurate rectilinear modelling in Vectorworks (as you could still do in FormZ) and dxf it into Cinema (although less and less, as I get better in C4D), but for furniture modelling, or anything vaguely organic Cinema is great. One thing it lacks is true Nurbs surfaces, but I have yet to visualise anything like tensile structures, though I'm sure there would be a way in C4D.

 

Why not download a demo from Maxon and just try it out before jumping to Max or LW?

 

(I also want to say that I have nothing whatsoever to do with Maxon - I'm just a very enthusiastic C4D user!)

 

Cheers,

 

D.

[Ernest Burden III]

I tried out the FormZ demo and was just about to stump up the £1700 or so for the full renderzone+radiosity package, when I came across Cinema 4D.

 

I agree 100% with everything you said.

 

Except I bought FormZ and Cinema on the same day. I use Cinema every day, FormZ once every 8 weeks. And my modeling is still mostly Datacad, but, like you, I do a little more in Cinema with each project.

[Adehus]

4DM-

 

I agree as well. Recently I've been evaluating the demo version of C4D, and have been stunned by the smoothness of its interface and just overall ease of use. If you understand the basics of 3D, it is very easy to get up to speed with C4D. Nobody could *ever* say that about FormZ. Also, comparing Maxon's progress with C4D in the past 4 years with Autodessys's is, well, depressing.

 

Still, I've been using FormZ for 10 years and have a hard time discarding it completely. It really is an extremely powerful modeler, and I have a hard time seeing myself being anywhere near as fluid with C4D in architectural modeling applications. I'm about to make the C4D purchase, though, and i'd like to think the two apps will compliment each other well... the export/import process seems easy enough.

[wizuby]

interesting forum.

 

I have been using formZ for only about 6 months. Unfortunately, even in such a short amount of time I have run into several limitations. Of course, they have not been in the modeling portion of the program, but in the rendering and animation portion.

 

With the expected realease of a Maxwell plugin for FormZ comes the hope that FormZ will eventually be able to produce top quality renderings, but recently I have been using Max anyway and it just seems like such a much more powerful program. And for me...it doesn't seem any more difficult to use. The materials and lighting options far surpass anything in formZ...and obviously the animation also. I don't feel like it is any harder to model in either.

 

In defense of FormZ and the Autodesys support team, I think the support is the best feature of the program. I was able to get a good grasp of the program in a short amount of time...mostly because the forum (which inlcudes Zweb technicians) were extremely helpful and informative. Zweb answers your questions almost immediatly.