PhillipT Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 Hi all, This may appear a little off topic, but I am writing a guidelines paper for a number of small and medium sized museums on the use of visualistion, animation and interactive 3D exhibits for virtual heritage projects. One of the issues I would like to address is in regard to pricing and to give the museum teams realistic expectations in regard to industry rates and project pricing mechanisms and was hoping to garner some information on pricing and service costings here, for the basis of guidelines for expectation management, if possible. I am aware of David Wright's excellent paper covers some of the same ground (with 3D and architectural relevence) from a practitioners view, as does the "The graphic designers guide to Pricing, Estimating and Budgeting" by Theo Stephan Williams. My aim is to raise some of the reasonings behind price variations and project estimates for those museum staff interested in commissioning a project, but also (if at all possible) give them a rule of thumb idea on what is a 'reasonable' expectation. The guidelines paper is aimed at museum curators and exhibition planners within Europe (who often commision from organisations throughout the whole of Europe) and aims to address some of the concerns of using visualisation technologies as part of heritage exhibits including, the technologies themselves, project development approaches, installing and maintaining exhibits and commisioning projects and who can supply them. The paper is going to be used in a couple of workshops in Europe (and possible as part of a presentation in Canada later in the year) - I will post a link to it here - so everyone has access to the information. thanks, PT [ edited to clarrify] [ March 31, 2003, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: PhillipT ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david whiting Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 Phillip I hope this starts an exchange of views and information as I am very interested in your question. It seems to me, from your background, that you're probably very qualified to determine guidelines for the production of media for the display of 'virtual heritage' once you have the right source material to work with. The question I have to ask is what assumptions are you making about source material including spatial and material data. How do you plan to address the vagaries of source material's availability and accuracy? From my experience, the most difficult of part of preparing a successful virtual heritage exhibit or media is obtaining relevant spatial data about the heritage resource and making clear to the viewer/client the relevant accuracy of the 'model' on which the exhibit is based. I would suggest that you should have someone on your team who is intimately familiar with remote sensing and collection of 3D spatial data and that a specific set of guidelines be developed in this regard. This is no small order. I'm sure you're aware through your contacts that there are many approaches to this question from hand recording, photogrammetry, reflectorless total stations and laser scanning etc. I have a few sources of information that you may want to check out: a good reading list: http://www.csee.wvu.edu/~vanscoy/DOCVH.HTM Robert Stone should be at this session in Montreal this October: http://www.vsmm.org/2003/ One of the best sources around for thinking about 'what data' to base virtual heritage models on: http://csanet.org/index.html The best organization dealing with remote sensing of spatial data on heritage resources: http://cipa.icomos.org/ There's another whole area of debate regarding the skill set of the 'modeler' who has to interpret and model original data about a resource. What is his/her experience with 'things heritage'? My apologies if this is all familiar to you. I'm interested in starting a dialogue in this regard and finding out more about your work. Look forward to discussing this more with you. I think that the whole area of digital reconstruction and 'virtual heritage' could warrant a discussion area of it's own on the CGArchitect site. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillipT Posted April 1, 2003 Author Share Posted April 1, 2003 Hi David, I think you highlighted the crux issues rather nicely. Costing and estimating a virtual heritage visualisation is dependent on a number of factors and processes which I think lie outside the traditional interactive media developers estimating approaches and considerations. (Though I think they do have a lot in common with architectural visualisation - hence the post) For instance in creating a corporate CD-ROM perhaps for a new building visualisation - as an interactive media developer you can factor in X time for concept design, data and media acquisition (sound, photographs, video, 3D modelling and rendering) you can factor in time and resources for creation of title sequences and interaction design, user testing and validation, mastering, production and distribution (CD-ROM, Web, Kiosk, custom interactive exhibit) etc. Its a pretty well defined and known process and because the process is now pretty well established it enables museums and heritage centres (and other clients) to compare prices, work approaches and estimates between suppliers for more traditional multimedia products. When it comes to heritage visualisation, the development process can be considerably more involved. As you point out - the source material's availability and accuracy can vary widely - sometimes to the extent that the final work can require much in terms of interpretation, data acquisition now involves specialised spatial content and there are issues with how data is interpreted. The source material and what is produced during the course of the visualisation production requires regular veracity and authentication reviews and assumption checking. It will often require research into the availability and accuracy of additional source material and possibly negotiation for access if this material is located in another collection or institution, never mind establishing a process for review by domain experts both from the museum or heritage centre and independent 3rd party experts. As you point out spatial data acquisition will most likely involve remote sensing and 3D spatial data collection which are often specialist domains (perhaps requiring specialised sub contracting for laser scanning, aerial photography etc) and then putting in place a framework to manage how this material / data is interpreted and presented. In terms of the final visualisation, any heritage visualisation is essentially a work of interpretation and the quality of the interpretation (in my view) can be shown to an extent, by the ability to trace any element of a visualisation back to source material, stated assumptions and preferably where possible recorded peer review by domain experts. This is heavily dependent on the visualisation development process employed and the data management tools used. This means at the outset of a project, developing a detailed project plan including data acquisition strategies, identifying domain experts, putting in place a data asset management facility that is part of a team communication environment for all the participants and stake holders, and then channelling this into the more standard interactive media design process. Until recently many heritage visualisations have been the domain of large heritage organisations using relatively expensive resources on big budget projects or the products of university research teams. As a result for many smaller museums considering this approach - it initially appears to be outside their budget scope, but this is not necessarily so and partly the reason for the paper / i.e. to show what's involved, how it can be managed and what it can cost. Your suggestion on getting the input of someone who is "intimately familiar" with remote sensing and collection of 3D spatial data, is a good one! And thanks for the links - there excellent! You said from your experience - what's you involvement in the virtual heritage area? I am also interested in learning more and taking this dialogue further.. Phillip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ingo Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 Hi Phillip, i think the kind of work you mentioned for small museums is more something for an inhouse artist rather than to outsource that work. So instead of sending data to a visualizer he has obviously to work closely together with the museum to get the work done. Just my two cents ingo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillipT Posted April 1, 2003 Author Share Posted April 1, 2003 Hi ingo, For some museums that is definitly the case, in house artists and designers will undertake the work. For others the development of interactive 3D visualisation based exhibits is often outsourced - since its not necessarily in the core capabilities of the museum team (though this is changing with more folks coming into the field) - more often it is a mixture - with the museum staff managing aspects of the project, providing input into all aspects of development and the contractor ether integrating this into an application, exhibit or publication (cd or dvd). It really depends on the projects, also many smaller museums are now looking at applications such as interactive visualisation and web services as a means to enhance the presentation of their collections, but are looking to outsource to keep their costs down (ie avoid investment in 3D authoring tools and dedicated facillities). Phillip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ingo Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 Hi Phillip, a friend of mine just finished her universtity degree in archelogy. She said that its hard to outsource this kind of work since, as mentioned before, there is a lot of thinking involved for unidentified objects to bring them to life. So you have to sit their with your Powerbook and modell on site, which is an exiting new way to explore for the scientists too. Its the same with cga, a studied architect is much better and quicker doing architectural renderings than a "normal" guy/girl. Seems like an interesting niche for us cga's, just pack your tents and your Powerbook and work on different museums to get their presentations done. regards ingo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david whiting Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 Hi Phillip My experience in this area is primarily in the field of heritage preservation. As such, I've carried out a variety of work on representing heritage resources. I'm familiar with the application of a variety of field techniques to capture spatial and material data about buildings (in my caseI've used hand recording, rectified photography, photogrammetry, reflectorless total stations and laser scanning to get 3D data about objects). I use this data to model and illustrate structures (primarily in autocad/VIZ). I have used these tools in my concervation work but now there's a growing interest in digitally reconstructing buildings instead of(or as well as) restoring them. I'm only now starting to produce digital media on heritage resources. I'm particulary interested in the step between field recording and modeling and feel strongly that this should be done as part of an integrated process. I have been involved in projects where the 3D model was drawn in autocad auomatically from a database of field data (gathered by a total station and hand recording). There are a variety of people actively involved in this area. What I find is that there are few people who understand the whole spectrum. You have great surveyors and field recorders who have great amounts of data but no modeling or graphic abilities. At the other end you have great modelers who can't find good data to work with. What's becoming more interesting every day is that the field recorder, the surveyor, the draughtsman, the modeler and the media people are primarily using digital data now and in many cases they're all using 3D information. The guidelines that you're working on could help the modeler understand what kind of data is being gathered in the field and in turn, the field recorder could better understand what information the modeler needs. If you think of heritage modeling as a form of 3D GIS I think you're moving in the right direction. Regards David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillipT Posted April 1, 2003 Author Share Posted April 1, 2003 ingo, Ha - I now have this mental image of itinerant power book toting cga's wandering from museum to museum - much akin to the 18th century fresco painters went from country house to country house painting historic scenes in Europe... I agree with your friend, she is totally right it can be extremely hard to outsource, and from service providers point of view it takes a very long time to build up the relationships with the museum teams and gain awareness of the many issues involved, but that investment is worth it - these are fun folks and its really a privilege to work with those who have passion for what they do!. It is also necessary to ensure that you have specialists availble in house and on projects, something in which i am fortunate in having ready access to. I think a good animator or modeller can also bring much to the party - different experiences and viewpoints can really enrich an exhibit design - but it is fundamental to have at least a strong awareness and active interest in the field - there is a lot to be taken in to consideration- as with architectural vis. Oddly enough (though appropriate) it was a archeologist and an architect that got me interested in the applications of 3D graphics in the first place... Phillip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david whiting Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 Phillip Here's a link to a paper I did for CIPA(a long time ago now) with I fellow named Steve Nickerson on automating the drawing of a 3D model from a database of 3D points and field notes which illustrates a pretty crude 3D GIS. The illustrations on the web aren't great however. Someday, I believe that this type of approach will be more common in the field data gathering and modeling http://cipa.icomos.org/papers/97s121.htm Regards David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ingo Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 Originally posted by PhillipT: - I now have this mental image of itinerant power book toting cga's wandering from museum to museum - much akin to the 18th century fresco painters went from country house to country house painting historic scenes in Europe... . Hi Phillip, thats how architects should work, maybe we get some better architecture this way Sounds like a nice idea, in my early times as a cga i've worked in some architects offices, specially when the work is for competitions this is very useful. And as David mentioned 3D Gis is a good name for reconstruction and building virtual heritage. From my time as a CAD supporter i have a nice contact to a CAD company who does also plan drawings, mostly for the GIS field. They had last year a nice test with a Laser scanner, and that was very impressing. You can get very good results and one can easily work with the point-cloud the scanner generates. That was a lot of fun. regards ingo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillipT Posted April 1, 2003 Author Share Posted April 1, 2003 Hi David, I am hoping to set up a discussion on the Vertual Heritage Network (once the server is back up and running) to talk about this i.e. the information flow within virtual heritage projects and how data is managed on projects from site (Or museum collection) through to exhibit and afterwards... Once this is up I will post an announcement here and email you to let you know. I would very much like to get something up and running for discussion at VSIM in October in Montreal. I all ready spoke briefly with Alonzo Addison about this and i know the issues relating to metadata are of interest to him. If you want to get involved in this - you would be more than welcome!! The data management system I use is developed in house and based on a combination of GIS, document management/version control and metadata cataloging, if you imagine NxN's AlienBrain meets Esri you will get the idea. At this point it doesn't do direct model creation - it was designed to manage resources so i could show paper trails - ie where everything in the visualisation can be traced back to site data, validate documents and collection information, know which version of information and meshes were the most recent and had been signed off by experts, and the metadata is used to cross reference with collection management systems and then channel this into our interactive media development processes. I will be putting the latest version of the system through its paces (and extending it) on an historic city visualisation demonstrator project in the next few months (if you would be interested, we will be releasing a controlled beta test version towards the end of this year). Once that project is done - will post examples on the web. Your paper looks interesting - will print a copy off to read later, but is very much in line with where I see these developments heading.. AS you say increasingly GIS and data management tools are being used on sites and in museums - it makes sense for heritage visualisation workflow and processes to be integrated into them. Looks like we have a chunk to talk about.. Phillip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillipT Posted April 1, 2003 Author Share Posted April 1, 2003 Hi Ingo - i couldn't agree more - hence why the months of May and June I expect to be in the collections room of our next project partner, scanning, digitising, modelling and interactively planning like a very merry person indeed!! Laser scan derived data is great for renders, and pre-rendered animation - can be a killer for real time - they generate a lot of information - though with good polygon decimation routines, and patience they are a definitly useful (and fun) tool!! By the way what CAD systems did you support? Phillip [ April 01, 2003, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: PhillipT ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david whiting Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 Phillip and others I look forward to continuing this discussion but have to leave for the day. I'm planning on going to the VSMM meeting on montreal next fall and we can meet in person. Any others going? Regards David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ingo Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 Originally posted by PhillipT: - i couldn't agree more - hence why the months of May and June I expect to be in the collections room of our next project partner, scanning, digitising, modelling and interactively planning like a very merry person indeed!! That sounds great Phillip. BTW, where is your client located. I realized you must live somewhere in the Switzerland - France area. Originally posted by PhillipT:...By the way what CAD systems did you support?...I have done CAD support for the Mac version of Microstation, with additional inhouse work for clients to get a fast start with that software. Now that David is gone we can start with the interesting part of the discussion :ebiggrin: regards ingo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillipT Posted April 1, 2003 Author Share Posted April 1, 2003 LOL... Ingo - for this project, right now i can't say - we are coordinating announcements to coincide with international museum day on the 18th of May... but i will post details when the project 'officially' starts.. We're currently based in France, just over the border from Geneva, Switzerland, though so far we have worked on projects with orgs in England, France, Switzerlands and the US, which makes for interesting cultural contrasts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 Hello @Ingo > a studied architect is much better and quicker doing architectural renderings than a "normal" guy/girl... I saw many, many architects and what they are "doing".... Maybe you should compare the "studied architects" with a professional CGI Person, but not with a "normal" guy/girl... Richie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ingo Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 Originally posted by PhillipT: ...We're currently based in France, just over the border from Geneva, Switzerland, though so far we have worked on projects with orgs in England, France, Switzerlands and the US, which makes for interesting cultural contrasts Nice area you live there, thats why you have a french company adress and a website in Switzerland, to please them both. Maybe i should look for a danish website Looking forward to here from your new work ingo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now