Nils Norgren Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Hello all, I am writing to inquire as to your opinion/disposition regarding large(er) studios. What is the perception about working at a studio of 20+ artists? As a studio we are constantly looking for talented people, we post jobs on job sites (such as this one) as well as on our own site. What should a studio such as ours do to get applicants? If there were many large studios (like there are in the Movie industry) do you think would you be trying to get jobs with them? Just a quick post to inquire about the prevailing opinions. -Nils PS. we recently updated our gallery with some of our newer work http://www.neoscape.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 What is the perception about working at a studio of 20+ artists? There aren't very many of those, at least in the US. The standard impression is--factory! That comes from the examples set by Howard Associates, and it's spinoffs, like Art Assoc. and Rose. If you worked there you would be the 'tree guy'. It was an assembly line. You would paint trees all day. You would get VERY good at trees, but would never learn the whole process so as to go out and open a competing business. Even though some still did. It came from the age-old fear of training your competition. I'm hoping with the digital arch-vis biz that model is outmoded. Is it? I don't know, I have little experience with that sort of firm. And for me its way too late. I could start one, or partner into one, but not work for one. Maybe I'll do one of those, I'm at yet another turning point. But enough about me... How often do you need new people, and why? Expansion, or turnover? Very different, those. I hope that we are at a point where this industry can be a career for people without having to be entrepreneurs. It would be really nice to be able to concentrate on your craft without having to also be versed in accountanting, marketing, computer maintainance, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Nelson Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Same thoughts as Ernest mostly. My biggest fear would be getting stuck in doing the same thing over and over again and not being free to explore the project as a whole. The hard part of running a one man business is that you have to do everything - sometimes that is also the fun & rewarding part. But I guess I could also say there are parts of my job that I could easily do without. I've never been part of a large studio like Neoscape's, so I'm curious to see how you operate. Looking at your website, it seems that while you have quite a few people there, you don't have the 'tree maker' or the 'landscaper', etc. What I do wonder though, is if you have the 'lighter' the 'texturer' the 'modeler' like most studios seem to have. There is nothing wrong with that of course - I'm sure it's a lucrative way to run things. But how rigid is that system? I general I think a lot of renderers have more of a free spirited, artistic approach to work. So I think as an employer I would try to make the employees feel like they have some flexibility, not only in their schedule, but also in how they get their work done. Neoscape is a big name, so I'm a little surprised that you have a hard time finding good people. It might be that they are scared off by looking at job titles like 'Senior Digital Artist' and think they are not qualified for such a position. Perhaps you could offer some intern positions as well. Do you plan on having a booth at Siggraph? That would surely attract a lot of people looking for jobs. Sift through the dragon & fairy modelers and I bet you could find a lot of great architectural talent there too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nils Norgren Posted June 30, 2005 Author Share Posted June 30, 2005 -Ernest Thanks for the reply, I know what you mean about the factory aspect of the work, we have talked to some artist working in large firms where they are expected to crank out 2 renderings a day (each). That is not the kind of environment I am talking about, in the VFX and movie industry everyone strives to be a ILM, Pixar etc. As for the reason for needing people it is mostly expansion. Most of the projects we have been selling are like our "Loft 5" movie / renderings on our web site, these jobs can be fairly complicated and include many renderings, a movie and some other assets. Mostly we don't want to run everyone into the ground. As for artists doing art, I could not agree more, I can remember the early days of neoscape, dealing with new clients, old clients, accountants, lawyers, computers, taxes, networks, paying people, getting paid, etc. the list goes on and on. Now we have people for all those tasks, dedicated salespeople who do an excellent job, admin people who are not afraid to hold a clients feet to the fire to deliver needed assets (for the most part). The net effect is just what you said, artist can (hopefully) concentrate on their craft. Thanks, -nils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nils Norgren Posted June 30, 2005 Author Share Posted June 30, 2005 What I do wonder though, is if you have the 'lighter' the 'texturer' the 'modeler' like most studios seem to have. There is nothing wrong with that of course - I'm sure it's a lucrative way to run things. But how rigid is that system? For the most part there are many artists who specialize but can do any part of the project. Many artist have gravitated to the part of the pipeline they naturally enjoy/excell at. We have some guys (myself included) who love to model, some do not. It is all over the place. Perhaps you could offer some intern positions as well. we actually don't have trouble finding interns, or people who we might consider for low level work, it is the senior people that we are most interested in. Do you plan on having a booth at Siggraph? No - maybe next year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 As for the reason for needing people it is mostly expansion. Well there go all my clients. The best thing about a larger firm is the ability to take on bigger projects. There is only so much a one-person firm can do, even with project-hired extra hands. I've done plenty of skyscrapers in my time, but looking at DBOX's 'Freedom Tower (take 2)' renderings released today (LMDC site) reminded me of the sort of project you would need a crew for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Alexander Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 What should a studio such as ours do to get applicants It depends upon what your are looking for, imho. Top end VFX experience with a tolerence for ArchViz or people who are ArchViz oriented with VFX like experience. The two entities kind of clash, albeit in the end exactly the same thing. The VFX people don't think rendering buildings is a highly developed skill and the archviz people don't fully comprehend the art of VFX being relevent to rendering buildings and spaces. It's a narrow slice of people that your are looking for to begin with, imho. You need to contact people, from seeing their work, posts in forums ect. Look for them... don't wait for the best to come to you. Use freelance as a way to get aquainted, develop relationships, grow potential canidates for full time employment. You really need to talk up your working environment, whats great about it. How does it stand out from other large firms, why would your ideal canidate really want to come work for you? My 2cents Cheers WDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbr Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 $$ are always a good way to attract talent. If you offer enough, people will come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 $$ are always a good way to attract talent. If you offer enough, people will come. True, but you just don't want them to be solely motivated by the $$$ alone. Look what happened to the VFX industry in the early 90's. People jumped ship to who ever was waving more $$$. I agree that the only way to really hire good people is to seek them out, follow their work and get a feel for their track record and then make them an offer they can't refuse. Is this fiscially viable...I'm not sure. I think it's safe to assume that the people who are worth the big $$$ can probably produce the goods to back the money up. I'm not sure if any of you recall Neil Blevins (http://www.neilblevins.com/), but he had a website, more of a blog (before there were such things) where he posted what he was up to and his work.This was back in 1996/97 if I recall. Well the VFX folks were watching. They watched him from High School art posts, to work done at an art school afterwards and all the CG he produced on his own one summmer. He was shortly theirafter hired by Blur and now has an impressive list of crediential in the VFX industry. So I really do thing that one has to follow the people to get the 'right' person. One of the reasons I created the current Architectual Visualzation competiton was to help people just like Neoscape find those "right" people. CGA, makes zero $$$ from making this event happen, other than the spin off advertsing and releationships and site traffic that develop as a result. So, it was really my hope that some highly talented, and potentially unknown artists would get the exposure to get an offer from the Neoscape's of the world and other CG firms. I've had a couple of people email for artist's contact info, so some people are thinking along these lines I guess. On the flip side, most of the good people work for themselves or own the companies, so can the be enticed away? I'd be curious to hear some comments from some of the other competitors on this. In regards to external perception, I can't really comment, becuase I have insight into the inner workings of a lot of companies that most do not, and I think it affects my take on things. I get emails from a lot of big firms like Neoscape asking (begging) to tell them if i know of anyone to hire for the Senior level positions. It does not appear you are alone. As an aside, I still get a kick out of this becuase the very initial reason for launching CGA was to find me a new job. I had no idea who to approach back then, so why not make a site where everyone comes to me....looks like it worked...muhahahahaha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Denby Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 On the flip side, most of the good people work for themselves or own the companies, so can the be enticed away? I'd be curious to hear some comments from some of the other competitors on this. I'm very happy working for my self and make a good living. I think anyone in this situation, providing that they have lots of work, will make much more money than that offered by other companies. This is probably why big companies have problems recruting good people...they don't (and probably can't) offer enough. I must admit, if I was 10 years older, with retirement on the horizon, I would be interested in joining a company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nils Norgren Posted June 30, 2005 Author Share Posted June 30, 2005 The best thing about a larger firm is the ability to take on bigger projects. There is only so much a one-person firm can do, even with project-hired extra hands. Another thing to also consider is that not only can you take on bigger jobs but you have the credibility to pitch bigger jobs. Top end VFX experience with a tolerence for ArchViz or people who are ArchViz oriented with VFX like experience. The two entities kind of clash, albeit in the end exactly the same thing. For the most part ArchViz people are better, They can read plans, talk to architects, although we have some with illustration backgrounds, gaming, film making, etc. True, but you just don't want them to be solely motivated by the $$$ alone. I appreciate this statement, I think that if people make money their primary reason for such a decision, I would question their motavations. I am intrested in people's opinion about an environment like Neoscape. I'm very happy working for my self and make a good living. I think anyone in this situation, providing that they have lots of work, will make much more money than that offered by other companies. I must admit, if I was 10 years older, with retirement on the horizon, I would be interested in joining a company. This makes sense, what I don't understand is the comment about wanting to work for a big company when retirement is on the horizon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Denby Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 This makes sense, what I don't understand is the comment about wanting to work for a big company when retirement is on the horizon? What I meant was in 10 years, I might be struggling for work, be fed up the the stress of running my own business, and be happy to head up a team and train up new talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 fed up the the stress of running my own business, and be happy to head up a team and train up new talent. That's exactly where I'm at. I've talked to other people in the industry about partnerships from time-to-time over the years, it's just never worked out. I don't know if it ever will. As I said, I'm too far along to be a good employee. As a matter of fact, the last actual job I held was over 25 years ago working for a summer at McDonalds. But we didn't have to ask "do you want fries with that?" so it was OK. The other thing that comes to mind is the public face of the company. With Neoscape and AMD I know the owners, but their names are not on the door. Part of why I started a 'new' rendering business a few years ago was to get my name OFF the door, to become Acme Digital. It was part of how I broke away from traditional media where the artist him/herself is what's for sale. With a digital firm, its the product, and clients expect there to be a bunch of cooks in the kitchen. The opposite is true for painting, so I was tired of having to do everything myself. Which brings me to the interesting question of whether a large vis firm should try to attract people with an existing track record--like the CGA competitors for example--and promote their talents to clints by name. Or hire great talents and just blend their work into the corporate look? That's a very interesting question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moshenko Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 On the flip side, most of the good people work for themselves or own the companies, so can the be enticed away? I'd be curious to hear some comments from some of the other competitors on this. I think the question is not "Can they be enticed away?", but "Can I get them to work with me?", and those are two very different questions. I'm not about to drop my business to work permanently for another company, but I would work with other companies on great projects in a heartbeat, regardless of whether or not the final outcome was solely produced by myself or my company. Actually, I would work (and have worked) for other companies on not-so-great projects if there was something to gain from it, be it financial or relationship. I think it's time for our profession to cross the barrier from individual artists/companies to collaborative groups, and to see projects as challenges that could be met by teams of formerly competing entities. Wasn't the promise of the digital age one of increased accessibility and access to a broad range of people/resources? Breaking down the geographical barriers? We are still generally made up of localized companies that hire people who live within their own geographical region, and I think it can lead to an incredible staleness in the quality of work. Look at the diverse range of styles in the competition; they are influenced by so many factors that could never happen if all the competitors worked in the same geographic area. I want to be exposed to that kind of talent, and I want to work with them in a collaborative fashion so that I can learn something from them and they can, hopefully, learn something from me. In the end, the benefits of that kind of relationship can far outweigh the potential hazards, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Cassil Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Here's one issue, I think some other posts have touched on it, and that is "senior level" people are mostly rooted in their jobs already, and many of them are rooted in their communities as well with kids in school, a house, and other local ties. Here's my scenario just as an example. Currently I work for an architectural firm and manage the visualization effort which consists of two dedicated artists and the occasional help of one or two architects as the work load demands. I like it, I enjoy the mentoring responsibilities as well as being able to do my own work and further my own skills. I also teach adjunct classes at a local community college which I love; I'm trying to get a local chapter of the CGSociety started; I have three kids now, two of them in school; and other local ties through volunteer work that I do. So, would I ever consider moving elsewhere to work for a vis firm? Yes, if the opportunity was right. I've actually been contacted several times over the last couple of months, and the first thing that the person has asked in every instance is "are you willing to relocate to...”. The answer to that depends on so many factors: Where that place is, work environment, growth potential, benefits, and of course compensation relative to cost of living. So far they haven't fallen in line for me, maybe someday they will, maybe not. The point is senior people are mostly rooted in their careers, whether that be working for themselves, for arch firms, etc. As a side note, I'm sure your company works hard to develop young talent so they can take more responsibility. I know it can be a slow process, but are those employees able to fulfill your future needs, or is your workload simply growing so fast that you need to hire new teams of people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nils Norgren Posted June 30, 2005 Author Share Posted June 30, 2005 As a side note, I'm sure your company works hard to develop young talent so they can take more responsibility. I know it can be a slow process, but are those employees able to fulfill your future needs, or is your workload simply growing so fast that you need to hire new teams of people? Brian, I understand your point about roots in the community, I have 3 kids also (all boys, 5, 4 and 1). Many of our artists were hired out of college, there is something to be said for teaching and building up their talents, but on the other hand people from outside, currently doing the work can hit the ground running on projects. We try to do both, hire new workers and get people with experience. Very often the best situation for us is people like you, working within an architecture firm. The people we have hired from that situation are use to the projects, but they have so much more support, freedom and empowerment to tell the clients the way something should be done. I don't know how many "walkthroughs" I have watched, directed by an architect, that fall far short of the talents of the artists creating them. We strive to steer clients to let us determine the best approach to a project, let us tell their story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Cassil Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 I don't know how many "walkthroughs" I have watched, directed by an architect, that fall far short of the talents of the artists creating them. You must know some of the people I work with;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siliconbauhaus Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 I've been doing 3d since 87 (yes I'm kinda old) but it's always been as part of my job as an architect. People look at my portfolio and see the 3d work I've done and i get asked to produce the occasional project. I've gotten to the point where I've just about had enough of the architecture side of things and would like to focus soley on 3d (which I think I'm pretty good at). I find myself in this dilemma: Try to go on my own or get a position with a viz company. I have a wife, 2 kids, 2 cars and a mortgage. My wife works part time but doesnt earn that much so the risk's involved in going solo seem far too great to take. I have talked to the only 2 companies I know of in Maryland that do 3d only and both seemed interested but things never panned out. Most architecture practices that are looking for someone to do 3d are after interns or straight out of uni types. They dont want to pay the kind of salary I'm on as an architect when they can get someone for half the ammount. In answer to Nils question, I would be very happy to work for a company such as neoscape or dbox or whoever. The major problem is the relocation as both my wifes' and my parents are in their 70's. I've probably gone way off course with this reply so appologies are offered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Just thought I'd comment on the posts speaking to established families etc. For the most part I think you will find a lot of the more established and senior level people do have a lot of personal and financial commitements in their current locations. Not to generalize that people are not willing to move their families to pursue a job at another firm, but the payoff is really going to have to be worth it. Ie, paying for the move, a salary that is commensurate with the cost of living to salary ratio that a person has in their current location etc. I know that this can be very difficult if not impossible to do if the person you want lives in a location where the standard of living is very high and the location of potential re-location is really expensive. A 300-400K house in middle america, is going to be worth a million in a really large center. The salary does not always increase in proportion. This kind of ties back to the earlier comment that was made about having studios working together rather than trying to solicit people away. In an ideal world, it would be great to have individuals and studios all collaborating together to produce work. Realistically, however you have to deal with egos, how to cost effectively split revenues, project manage different talents and workflows from afar, nevermind the mindset of protecting proprietary techniques. Anyway, just an observation and thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nils Norgren Posted July 1, 2005 Author Share Posted July 1, 2005 but the payoff is really going to have to be worth it. Ie, paying for the move, a salary that is commensurate with the cost of living to salary ratio that a person has in their current location etc. Jeff, all this is true, I think that good people are worth the investment. We have paid to bring people to interview and with an offer comes arangments for moving expenses. I think that the first question is how intrested are people in working at a Viz studio. It sounds like we need to let people know more about the environment. Things like the Render Farm, copies of all major rendering solutions, maxscripting people, HD edit suite, Plasma screens for viewing work (or just watching HDTV when working late). We need to get you back to Boston to see our new digs. Our old office was about 2500 sf. our new office is more than twice the size. -Nils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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