archkre Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 Nothing more, nothing less After more than 20 years of architectural practice I can tell you without the slightest doubt that in the 90% of the cases: *If you have an average family, you will not be able to make a decent living on 3D,animations and alike. *You will have to make your bucks drafting lousy 2D windows schedules, truss connectors details and wonders alike in some colleague's office. *Only you will get is a divorce and not granting quality time to your children. *If you buy new hardware and/or software, don't think it is an investment,pass it onto your loss list immediately, you will never recover anything! when you earn some dollars with them, new releases are coming out and the perverse circle goes on! *No Architect is going to pay for any 3D or Animation out of his pocket. *No client is going to pay for any 3D or Animation more than a couple of hundreds,on the other hand will pay thousands on a new whirlpool,a sculpture for the livingroom or an exotic plant. I could follow for hours, but I have to go to see the new fRender Stage 1!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Nelson Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 Wow, I would like to write a lengthy reply, but I'm too busy working on a rendering job for my client that does pay me fully, and on time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archkre Posted July 24, 2003 Author Share Posted July 24, 2003 Well, you are among the lucky 10% I mentioned! Good for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 Any doctor can prescribe Prozac. You should find one and ask about it, you may need it. I am not sure about your particular situation--it may be geographical, but I find your post troubling both for its inaccuracies and the picture it paints of your state-of-mind. *If you have an average family, you will not be able to make a decent living on 3D,animations and alike. It helps to have a spouse that is gainfully employed, but most of the renderers I know CAN support their families. Some years are disasters, but just as many are deluges. But knowing that, you can plan for it. *You will have to make your bucks drafting lousy 2D windows schedules, truss connectors details and wonders alike in some colleague's office. Just say no. The statement above is what I constantly hear from ARCHITECTS who have decided to go into rendering as an escape from the above. *Only you will get is a divorce and not granting quality time to your children. I have been at risk of both of these. My architect-turned-renderer father has had all of that many times over. I have learned a few things from his situation and am not following in his footsteps, even if I had to go get a real job. The problem is not the profession but the mindset of those that often choose it. Re-read that until it sinks in. It was not rendering that landed my father into three divorces and to abandon his chilren--it was HIM and his priorities. That does not have to be me and it does not have to be you. *If you buy new hardware and/or software, don't think it is an investment,pass it onto your loss list immediately, you will never recover anything! when you earn some dollars with them, new releases are coming out and the perverse circle goes on! Why do you constantly need new software and hardware if you are not making any money? It takes a dual CPU system with Maya to do the 2D drafting you say will be the real moneymaker? I ONLY buy new stuff when I have new work I need it to complete. Otherwise I get by on a two year old computer--maybe a new drive or RAM once-in-a-while. I just got a new BOXX because I had to render an animation. I took my retainer and bought the machine, but only after getting the project approved. *No Architect is going to pay for any 3D or Animation out of his pocket. OK, f* architects. Who DOES pay for animations, then? Figure that out and seek the work from them. *No client is going to pay for any 3D or Animation more than a couple of hundreds... Again--which clients are you talking about? I am not well informed as to what others get for animation, but I try to bid about $10,000 per minute, give or take a few thousand. Really its more by the complexity of the models that will be used, but that number is a good starting point. There are clients that will pay what your time is worth for architectural visualization. If not there, then somewhere. You need to examine what is important to you and what is not. If your career is killing your family life--how badly do you want to keep the career? Is there anything else you can do? Can your wife out-earn you? Stay home, care for your kids and have HER sweat the money. How badly do you want to stay where you are? Other markets are much more profitable than Florida. Move. Or get well known in another market and just travel to work on-site with a client job-by-job. Are you trained as an architect? That could be a problem. They brainwash kids in arch. school that architecture is the highest form of art and they are priveledged to work in the field, so should not expect proper pay because that would cheapen the art. What crap. Again, most of the renderers I know in the NY area are former architects that are THRILLED to be out of it. In the end, if what you wrote is a true reflection of where your mind is at, you should get some help because the situation is not at all as bad as you painted it. But you can do real damage to yourself and those close to you by letting your description become a self-fulfilling prophesy. Sorry to preach, I only mean to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kid Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 The problem is not the profession but the mindset of those that often choose it. So true. Architecture seems to attract the types of people (myself included) who are a mixture of compulsive obsessive and utopic dreamers. As far as the 3D industry in Florida I'm unable to comment on that. Good Luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archkre Posted July 24, 2003 Author Share Posted July 24, 2003 Perhaps I am exaggeratin' a little bit in some points, but nobody can't deny my points. I did Prozac for many years, but decided to increase the visits to my shrink instead! Ernest talks about Florida and moving anywhere else:where to? Any advice? Drag my family into that gypsy-like living? Hell no! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archkre Posted July 24, 2003 Author Share Posted July 24, 2003 Speaking of which I recall my schrink telling me about my love-hate relationship towards arch. After analyzing that, my Dr. Ben Sobel told me: "You love the architecture, but you deeply hate your profession" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 Ernest talks about Florida and moving anywhere else:where to?Any advice? Drag my family into that gypsy-like living? Hell no! It's good that you can give the idea such thought before rejecting it. The most active markets for rendering are the East Coast (NY + Boston) the Upper MidWest (Chicago, + some big remdering factories in Columbus, Ohio) and the California Coast. Those would be my suggestions, though they come with a higher cost-of-living than you probably have there. Another thought is a slight change of focus along with location. Do you remember that Chris Nichols (where is that Chris Nichols, anyway?) mentioned how many of the people moving into the FX jobs were former architects. He said there were openings, I think at PDI. California's pretty damned nice. But back to priorities: If arch-vis is making you miserable, why do you stay in it? What is it about this field that you get satisfaction from? Would you accept lots of money to do something completely different? And what holds you to where you are? To move to a new location for a better work life is not such a bad thing to contemplate, is it? That does not make you a gypsy. I would rather live in my hometown of San Francisco, but my wife is a New Yorker and it became more important to stay here where our lives were rooted than to take our chances there. And now my kids are New Yorkers and I am outvoted. But there is nothing wrong with relocating to improve your life, millions of people have done it. People risk EVERYTHING to come to the US just for an opportunity to get paid almost nothing to mow our lawns and pick our crops and watch our children--some of them having had to leave their own children behind. Its all about priorities. Some in architecture cannot turn their backs on it, even at the cost of everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sawyer Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 EEP! Archre why are you bringing this up? What is your situation. Being self employed is the hard way to go it seems you are having a tough bit of it as well. Although now I will keep my eye out for gypsy family arch renderers. :ngesmile: It is really hard work doing this stuff. I work part time doing 3d and some months I more than double my drafting salary other months a big fat 0. But I have to pay my taxes on it and keep up my system & get ac for the house so I keep working. Some weeks its 70+ hours and I hardly see my wife at all but I do make time for my daughter. (And there are sometimes I have a deadline & can hardly see her either) If I thought I would be working like that forever I may look around at other things to do. But I haven't had a 3d job for 3 weeks now & it is actually pure bliss. I get to see my wife daughter and read (Song of Ice and Fire series :angecool: ) From my experiance more work is to be had in bigger cities and more competion as well. Bigger cities have better architects/architects doing nicer work (usually). But they may be already courted by top notched 3d artists. Almost throughout Sacto all I have seen is pretty lame work. I feel at top of my game here but I wouldn't want to go to San Francisco & have to compete with David Wright (not yet ). Just things to think about good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dollus Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Miami Lakes has a population of less than 25,000. If you are only concerned with a local market, such a niche business is not very likely. How many mural painters exist in Miami Lakes? You need to consider moving to another location with a greater business density. Take a vacation and drive up to Atlanta. Do a little research and make appointments with AEC firms in the area. Most are very willing to take 15 mins. out of their day to speak with you. You may not get a job offer, but your perspective will be much better for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mzagorski Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Very interesting reading. For some that dont make it.. yes.. its ends up being a hobby. But.. for those that do make it, your making way more $ per hour than most architects do which means you can potentialy work less and spend more time with family. Would be interesting to see a reply from Mr Jeff Mottle who runs this FANTASTIC WEBSITE, runs an office for SMOOTH, works, works, works... plus has a WIFE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbr Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Yeah, this is a shocker, eh? I know of several architects with great educations, myself included, that have turned away from a traditional career in it because of the money, and instead, have focused on this career. I'll admit it isn't easy getting started, and that's where I am at now, but I can tell you that I will be making more than my colleagues that chose to pursue their : Architecture seems to attract the types of people (myself included) who are a mixture of compulsive obsessive and utopic dreamers . That really sums it up. There is also the potential to make considerably more. I am 3 years out of grad school, but I have the facilities and capabilities to charge, and supply, quality work in a reasonable amount of time. I know of no architect that can say the say with 3 years of experience. It's all how you approach it, your diligence in your marketing, and your ability/capability to learn more and get better. I do agree that architecture is a love/hate relationship, and that's why I've chosen not to get stuck drafting bathroom details. I enjoy creating 3D images, even of horrible architecture. It's almost therapeutic as it distances me from having any responsibility for the crap that goes up. On the flip side, I still enter competitions, some successfully (although nothing built), and plan on continuing to do that. There are alternatives, but success does not come easily for anyone, in any field. It will always require perseverance and determination, planning and expanding. It ain't gonna be easy, but it will be better much better than drafting! I hope you find some peace with your decisions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Homeless Guy Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 "This activity is just an unhealty hobby..." that is what i thought about some of my other activities until the scientist of the world proved me wrong. http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=healthNews&storyID=3102498 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arch83 Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 I am an architect, licensed 20 years ago. I did CAD work with Autocad 2.1 at no extra charge while others added at least 25% to their fee for the same service. We now do this for free. Granted it isn't the best (and this one isn't complete) but this is just the next step in my profession. In 10 years we will ALL be doing this for no extra charge just like CAD. The next step will be VR. The point is to be the best at what you do and target the market that is still challenged by technology. And then stay ahead of the game knowing that what you do as a "gifted artist" will be obsolete in a very short time. If you do that you will always be challenged and always be in demand. ADT and Viz4 and one RPC tree Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cesar R Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 I can totally understand CAD being "free" because it is actually a "typewritten" version of the design doodles. However, VR and renders are extra presentation material usually for promotions. I really think that providing renders for free is going to hurt a lot of people including my self. Although there are some firms and some architects who through in renders, more than 80% those renders do not compare to something that is completely paid for as a seperate job comming form a freelancer or a studio who only does visualization. -- I just realized, that freelancer are the people with the best equipment and software, and les't not forget a passion for what they do (I hope) which is why the results are much suppoerior in my oppinion. Conclusion: haha you get what you pay for, and there are clients out there who will not settle for a 15 min scanline cop-out. Cheers [ July 26, 2003, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: Cesar R ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Homeless Guy Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 Originally posted by arch83: We now do this for free. Granted it isn't the best (and this one isn't complete) but this is just the next step in my profession. In 10 years we will ALL be doing this for no extra charge just like CAD. The next step will be VR. Originally posted by Cesar R: However, VR and renders are extra presentation material usually for promotions. I really think that providing renders for free is going to hurt a lot of people including my self. Although there are some firms and some architects who through in renders, more than 80% those renders do not compare to something that is completely paid for as a seperate job comming form a freelancer or a studio who only does visualization. if you use renderings to assist you in design, or showing the client what your final idea will be, then the architect pays the cost. whether that means having an in house renderer, or having a freelancer do the work. if the client asks for renderings, even if they are the ones you used to present the idea to him, then the client needs to pay for these. the client will be using these to raise interest or money for his project. they are using them for their own financial gain. like i said, even if these renderings are already done, you still need to charge the client for the time you spent doing the renderings. unless it is written into the design contract that you will be providing renderings of the final project. it is an additional service and needs to be treated as that. even if you are just padding the fee to cover the time spent for modeling and rendering you should separate the numbers so you can track the amount of time spent on this. this way if a client keeps insisting on additional renderings, that you did not budget for, you will know how to handle the billing on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Alexander Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 original posted by crazy homeless guy: if you use renderings to assist you in design, or showing the client what your final idea will be, then the architect pays the cost Why is there, the toss it for free mentality? Is there that much competition that does? The funds to pay for the software, training (formal and learning curve), drive up overhead costs. Forcing greater drive for "production" and creating tension and diminishing the end result. Keeping up with the "jones firm" who could not afford it anyway, just seems to be ironic. imho I just don't get the temptation to compete by giving away an opurtunity to at least cover the hard costs. If a client wants an illustration for free, give them the drawings, after payment, and give directions to the local retial home improvements store to pick up a $40.00 software package so they can render it. There's nothing to it, right? -Just a thought- If a firm believes the quality of their rendering is not good enough to charge for it, why even spend the time to do it half way? You've lost time and money. Ultimately it's just dimishing this media to some kind of computer trickery. Making "This activity just an healthy hobby" and continuing the myth that any high school kid with a computer will be able to do it. Many believe this. Do you? Then what? Are we to hire high school kids with computers for presentations for clients? orangecry Once agian just a thought. rgrds WDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
recon Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 Originally posted by archkre: [QB] Nothing more, nothing less That's a pretty bleak assesment, I sure hope those numbers are straight out of your head while in a less than jovial mood:) My family is quite happy, and although my wife has a full time job, it really just pays for day care and a few pizzas each month. The bulk of our lifestyle is paid for by my work. There are ways to make a decent living at this. I'm not an architect. I did have an affinity to the field, but I got here in a back door artist/technician kind of way. But along the way I've become friends with several ex-architects, and my friend if you want to make pictures and animations I suggest you quit architecture as they have, and give this field your full attention. My ex-architect friends tell me they would never go back. As Ernest points out, you're marketing your services to the wrong crowd. You are correct, architects will not pay for this stuff, and if they had the budget they would rather try to do it themselves. The exeption would be larger architectural firms, but many nowadays have a very capable in-house departement to do this. You might look for a job at such a firm. The other route is to do your own thing. It will take time to build up a clientel, so diversify... establish relationships with local video producers and multi-media companies. Also, if you're having trouble getting profitable jobs, make sure to invest in the time to hone your skills... you have to be good, fast and flexible to make the product worthwhile to you and the client. Cheer up... It can happen. -john manning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
recon Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 Originally posted by arch83: We now do this for free. Granted it isn't the best (and this one isn't complete) but this is just the next step in my profession. In 10 years we will ALL be doing this for no extra charge just like CAD. The next step will be VR. Jeff Saying "we do this for free" is misleading, even if you don't realize it. If you spend the time to provide that rendering, and the "whole" job makes you a reasonable profit, and the client pays the bill, then you didn't do it for free. Your thinking is being swayed by the traditional architectural product you are providing. If you now do a rendering with each project, then the rendering IS part of the job. -john manning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigcahunak Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 Exactly what recon said! you do IT for free... what is IT? Its the same plans. It doesnt matter if its hand drawen plans, or cad printed - its the same plans. Its true that comunication with clients got some changes in the digital era, which means "SketchUP" type of illustrations are part of it. ADT hidden line print outs are also another part of communicating with clients nowadays. but going from that to an artist NPR rendering, or a professional GI rendering is a completely different thing with a much different time spent on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Homeless Guy Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 Originally posted by WDA: quote:original posted by crazy homeless guy: if you use renderings to assist you in design, or showing the client what your final idea will be, then the architect pays the cost Why is there, the toss it for free mentality? Is there that much competition that does? The funds to pay for the software, training (formal and learning curve), drive up overhead costs. Forcing greater drive for "production" and creating tension and diminishing the end result. Keeping up with the "jones firm" who could not afford it anyway, just seems to be ironic. imho I just don't get the temptation to compete by giving away an opurtunity to at least cover the hard costs. If a client wants an illustration for free, give them the drawings, after payment, and give directions to the local retial home improvements store to pick up a $40.00 software package so they can render it. There's nothing to it, right? -Just a thought- If a firm believes the quality of their rendering is not good enough to charge for it, why even spend the time to do it half way? You've lost time and money. Ultimately it's just dimishing this media to some kind of computer trickery. Making "This activity just an healthy hobby" and continuing the myth that any high school kid with a computer will be able to do it. Many believe this. Do you? Then what? Are we to hire high school kids with computers for presentations for clients? orangecry Once agian just a thought. rgrds WDA i work for an architecture firm. i split my time between 'inhouse' renderings and jobs where the client asked for renderings for fundraising. if we do a rendering to better explain to the client what we are trying to accomplish, then it is our responsibility to cover the cost of that rendering. the client never asked for it, i bill my time to the that project number, so it comes out of the general fee. now, if during the meeting the client says, "hey, can i have a copy of that rendering for promotional use?" we then tell him he will need to purchase this rendering from us. we bill depending on complexity of the model and rendeirng. usually $3-5,000 per model. we also do an aditional service fee if a client asks us if we can generate renderings for fundraising. i also spend time doing renderings for poroposals. my time spent on those renderings are billed to our marketing dept based on my pay rate. so we basically eat the cost on those. the projects we go after are usually 30-100 million dollar projects. i can not remember the exact percentage of the architecture fee, but i think it is usually something like 8% of the construction cost. eating a $5000 dollar rendering to land a project that size is more than worth the overhead. ____ *edit ...not yelling with the bold print, just calling attention to the only important part of my reply. [ July 26, 2003, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: crazy homeless guy ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Alexander Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 crazy homeless guy, I did not intend to make any inferences. My questions & statements are more posed to the smaller firms. On projects the size of yours render & illustration is a significantly small part of the overhead. It's a nominal cost. The smaller firms this rendering and illustration becomes a real cost. Why just "toss it in" if it hurts the bottom line, attitudes ect . You have an established tracking, accounting systems in your firm. The benefits vs costs can be assessed with ease, maybe?. This does not always seem to be the situation with the smaller firms. There just seems to be a lot of grumbling and disillusion about the acrhy viz media, from with in. I frequently use this media to help my clients visualize, it sells the project. I really need to control the costs, I'm a little fish, so it's figured as itemized additional for approval, or build into the overhead of the construction & sales costs. Large or small, is this not essential good practice? Illustration & rendering , when used, is always a potential benefit. But if 20 extra hours are needed to render, on an 200 hour project, is it worth the lost dollars and not making your overhead? How long can a small firm exist like this. C.H.Guy, i think thats what I was alluding too. Working for free usually make me very grumpy too. And I have! Is most of this grumbling related to the costs vs quality issues? Employee vs the establishment? The dreamer cg artist colliding with reality? I just would like some understanding, of the possible reasons why? This activity in not an unhealthy activity, if used correctly with the proper expectations. I'm just puzzled, rather than frustrated with these types of issues. Just want to better understand... brgds WDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cesar R Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Then what? Are we to hire high school kids with computers for presentations for clients? I was doing CG in highshool for some people ofcourse my models where not as good as they are now, nor were the render, but I was there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Alexander Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 I was doing CG in highshool for some people Well did you have some talent and ability? :angecool: This stuff was computer science in when I was in high school. I did design & drafting, that did'nt make me an architect. It's ability, effort and passion that gets top dollar for a service. Marketing, networking and luck help! rdgds WDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cesar R Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 I am not an architect, nor I expect my rendering skills (if any) to make one. I am going to college to be an architect. and I do want to specialize in rendering and visualization (if there is such thing) It's ability, effort and passion that gets top dollar for a service. Marketing, networking and luck help! I was just having a conversation about this a few minutea go. This is very true, if you have the passion and luck you will succeed - in anything you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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