Msamir Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 Several blasts hit an Egyptian resort killing 40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael-k Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 I said the same when i saw this one http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/review/article_full_story.asp?service_ID=9379 But strange nobody post thats, dont you think But you are right its a sad thing, for you and your country, and the world, and humanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bricklyne Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 I said the same when i saw this one http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/review/article_full_story.asp?service_ID=9379 But strange nobody post thats, dont you think ..........that might have something to do with the fact that a lot of those figures that they've given in that Al-Jazeera website are incomplete, unsubstantiated, skewed, and just plain manipulated to make it seem like its the US soldiers that have been doing all the killing and that the almost-daily suicide bombers and militant insurgents have almost nothing to do with Iraqi civilian deaths. IMHO that kind of overly biased and inaccurate reporting does no one any good, least of all, the Iraqis whom they purport to be representing and fighting for, and merely increases the temperature and feelings of animosity in a region where cooler heads stand a better chance of resolving the current mess that exists there. Just my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trance303 Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 Hello to All! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunky Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 My prayers with The Great People of Egypt, and all nationalities hurts in this tragidy.. Adel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael-k Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 bricklyne Or maybe its just facts, dont know if its Al-Jazeera who made this up, but i also saw it on CNN and the danish news. And the history dont lie. USA have some serious numbers of civilian deaths on there mind, so why not in Iraq also, but i belive you must be american to not understand, our belive that. Edit: our canadian sorry guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bully712 Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 How many of Saddams own did he murder? You have to agree with me that the news shows more bad than good. You have to hear it straight from the soldiers mouths what's going on over there. It shows you want kind of cowards these insurgents are that they have to hide behind innocent people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bricklyne Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 bricklyne Or maybe its just facts, dont know if its Al-Jazeera who made this up, but i also saw it on CNN and the danish news. And the history dont lie. USA have some serious numbers of civilian deaths on there mind, so why not in Iraq also, but i belive you must be american to not understand, our belive that. Edit: our canadian sorry guys Yes,....perhaps that last edit you did, might show what tends to happen when people take things for face value and just assume, (even when evidence to the contrary exists right in front of you in the form of a flag, and a bright one at that; you are aware that Canada didn't send any troops to Iraq, I hope?) but I digress. I wasn't arguing with the validity of the actual figures themselves; but merely with the way Al-Jazeera presented them. It doesn't take a Math major to figure out that they included Armed militant insurgents and suicide bombers among the figures of innocent "civilians" killed by American troops; ostensibly to both increase the stigmatic impact of the number of innocents murdered by occupying forces, as well as to hide the fact that a lot of the killing of Iraqis right now is actually being committed by the insurgents as opposed to the Americans. Speaking of which, it is also interesting to note that in all those figures there's almost no single mention of suicide bombers (actually none whatsoever, now that I think about it), who thus far have probably taken more civilian lraqi lives since the invasion than the Americans did during the invasion. And of course the only mention of insurgents/militants is something along the lines of; " Anti-occupation forces/insurgents killed 9% of civilian victims." Given that the article pre-emptively stated that just over 24,000 Iraqi civilians have so far, lost their lives, that would mean that the insurgents have been responsilbe for just about 2,160 lives and that Americans have been responsible for over 22,000 Iraqi lives. I don't know if you have been following the news with the near-daily Iraqi suicide bombing and Insurgent attacks, but it seriously doesn't take a professional statistician to figure out that there's clearly something wrong with those figures. From your responses so far, it would seem like you rather strongly believe the figures presented and Al-Jazeera's modes of presentation of those figures, as being the gospel-truth. Which is your right, I suppose; however my personal gripe with that report had to do with the nature of the impact of presenting so-called "facts" or "truths" in such incomplete and manipuilated forms; presumably, with the aim of influencing the readers' opinions towards or away from certain points of view and more importantly when you consider the fact that their primary demographic of listeners and viewers, have almost no other alternative sources of comparative information and news to corroborate or refute these reports. Take for example, you own assumption of my being an American, by simple virtue of the fact that I merely presented a voice of opposition to what you already strongly believe to be a popular and incontrovertible opinion. An assumption, nonetheless based in part, on misguided yet reinforced "truths" ( also known as 'propaganda') such as the ones that Al-Jazeera present, and an assumption also based on just plain sloppiness ( not bothering to look and see a flag that would inform you otherwise of my nationality). So you can imagine the kinds of needless pre-conceived notions and dangerous assumptions engendered by the kind of lopsided and just plain innacurate reporting that these guys do. And particularly, to the scale that they are able to, when you consider the fact that they are seen to be the voice and personification of press freedom and objectivity in many parts of the Arab world. I am quite curious though, as to what you meant when you said: "USA have some serious numbers of civilian deaths on there mind, so why not in Iraq also" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael-k Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 What I mean, I think the Vietnam war, would give you that answer. I have heard up to 300.000 civilian death by US trops. Did you know they actually bomb hospitals, they spread poison over vietnam, where there actually live people. Many years after the US goverment was lieing and manipualitat about that war. Its things you can read in our history books, and maybe yours I dont know. And then the Hiroshima bomb, I dont know how many lives, but i belive they killed that island. And so on, try a search and I belive you can find the numbers in all the wars they have been in. World war 1 and 2, korea war, mexican war, gulf war, afghanistan, actually in afghanistan they bomb one of there own traning camp for US soilders and so on. How many of Saddams own did he murder? You have to agree with me that the news shows more bad than good. You have to hear it straight from the soldiers mouths what's going on over there. It shows you want kind of cowards these insurgents are that they have to hide behind innocent people. I think its good saddam is gone now, and I belive iraq will be a better place some day. But I dont think USA will be the answer. I belive we have to make a plan every single western country can accept. It dosent help to fuck some country and make your own ride. This war with terrorist, civilian death and a bush goverment who think they can heal the world by themself, with there military, dosent help. Actually they also show the good news. We send some people down there for some time ago, to help them making water supply. Danish television did show a 1 hour program of that. We follow danish police and danish rescov people in iraq. We have seen journalist talking to normaly iraq people, who actually think its good the allies is there. and so on. But you are right, we also see when USA soliders kill innocent people, when extramist bomb civilian, when soilders turture presioner, when extramist murder innocent people and so on. Edit: sorry my spelling, english is not my first language Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Msamir Posted July 24, 2005 Author Share Posted July 24, 2005 How many of Saddams own did he murder? You have to agree with me that the news shows more bad than good. You have to hear it straight from the soldiers mouths what's going on over there. It shows you want kind of cowards these insurgents are that they have to hide behind innocent people. Saddam is a dictator and a human rights violator ,i dont like him however you(the Americans troops) also violated human rights and still does in Abu Gharib,If the insurgents killed innocent people you did too unfortunatly its a vicious circle that will go on and on doing nobody any good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecastillor Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 To all in this thread, I deeply respect everyones point of view, but regardless, I dont think CGA is the right place to discuss it. Everytime a thread like this pops up, nobody wins, DOnt you think? Anyway....my condolences to anybody hurt by these events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Msamir Posted July 24, 2005 Author Share Posted July 24, 2005 Everytime a thread like this pops up, nobody wins, DOnt you think? You're right but i think its good to discuss things like that from time to time, wouldnt harm anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bricklyne Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 What I mean, I think the Vietnam war, would give you that answer. I have heard up to 300.000 civilian death by US trops. Did you know they actually bomb hospitals, they spread poison over vietnam, where there actually live people. Many years after the US goverment was lieing and manipualitat about that war. Its things you can read in our history books, and maybe yours I dont know. And then the Hiroshima bomb, I dont know how many lives, but i belive they killed that island. And so on, try a search and I belive you can find the numbers in all the wars they have been in. World war 1 and 2, korea war, mexican war, gulf war, afghanistan, actually in afghanistan they bomb one of there own traning camp for US soilders and so on........... ...................................................... ......... But you are right, we also see when USA soliders kill innocent people, when extramist bomb civilian, when soilders turture presioner, when extramist murder innocent people and so on. ............. First of all, you make far too many assumptions about me, and from the looks of your responses, about the US and their role in world history. Your assumptions about me are understandable seeing as you do not know me beyond my responses, and I suppose to some degree they are even excusable on that account, even if ill-advised and improper. As for the views on the US, while I wouldn't be the first to place them on a pedestal as saviours of the world, I get the impression that you already have a demonized perception of them, particularly regarding their roles in the last couple of wars they've been involved in. And that is what bothers me seeing as nothing in life is ever that black and white. Don't forget that it takes 2 sides to fight a war, and that the US was a late-comer to the last World War for which you seem to be blaming them, particularly for Hiroshima; an attack that was provoked when they were attacked and drawn into a war that they didn't want any part of, up until then. Perhaps Vietnam and Korea ( and I suppose Afghanistan and Iraq, to some extent) are a different story, but the point I'm trying to drive to you is the fact that you only seem to see the US as the wrong-doers in all these wars. Both parties that fight in a War are the guilty party, especially when there are alternative ways of resolving the conflict available. Nonetheless I would never begrudge them the right to defend themselves as with any other country in this world, when they felt their security was at stake. As for Iraq, the reason I'm so much at odds with what you're saying might have something to do with the fact that I have 2 friends who served there, (one of whom is still there) and believe me, war is a far different story when you view it through the eyes of someone who stands to lose their life at any moment, and from any one of those suicide bombers you seem so unwilling to acknowledge exist and are killing more of the innocent Iraqis that you're blaming the US for. If the US pulled out of Iraq today, they would never be able to live down the stigma and tragedy from the fallout that would result from the anarchy and loss of life as a result of the power vacuum that would come about as a result of such a pull-out. Not too mention the implications of such a pull-out and the resulting anarchic power-vacuum in the wider surrounding region of the middle east and on neghibouring countries. So unfortunately they are in it for the long haul; at least until the Iraqi forces are strong enough to handle the insurgent threat on their own. Should the US have invaded Iraq? Perhaps not. Have the US done some inexcusable things there (Abu Ghraib and the like)? Without question. Should the US have done this with the rest of the world? Probably, if the rest of the world was willing. But looking back to the past, pointing fingers and casting blame does no one any good whatsoever. It only raises the temperature, and needlessly upsets some people while demonizing others. In this case, Americans, a very large number of whom don't even agree with what their Government did to begin with, and a considerable number of whom wouldn't know Baghdad from Mosul. I suppose what I'm saying after all this is that, unless you know all the facts and maybe even some of the people involved, it's never good nor a fair thing to do, to paint everything with such broadstrokes of assumptions and stereotypical attitudes. Life is just never that simple, and indeed it is such simplistic thinking that cultivates the kind of fear, hatred and animosity from which terrorist and fundamentalist ideologies develop. My apologies to the rest of the forum for turning into thisinto a political discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael-k Posted July 25, 2005 Share Posted July 25, 2005 Its bullshit. "normaly" people should have a oppinion about whats going on in the world. Actually I have a opinion on Hitlers nazi Germany and the 2 world war, and belive it or not, what I know about that war, is not something I know because I was there, I was not even born, and my parents was not even born when the war took place, but anyway I have a opinion about it, and why should I. It has nothing to do with that I know one or one of my family was there or I was there myself. Here in the western democratic world we actually learn from others, we see and we read, and after that we get an opinion on whats going on, and what has going on. I can tell you our country have soilders in Iraq, we had soilders in afghanistan. One of my best friend was in Tjetinastan and was in afghanistan to help 2 F16 out of afghanistan who was crashed, but it dose not make me to a man who know more or the world should listent more to. I dont know, but i think its a fucked up excuise to have. Every single man on this world, should and have a opinion on whats going on in the world. We are just lucky here in the western country, our history and news take normaly not part, so we have the best way to look at whats going on from both part of view. What should I do in your eyes before I can have a opinion about the iraq war ? take a vacation to bagdad ? and will that mean that everything that took place before I was born, I cant have a opinion about. I belive thats black and white and I belive its not what the western country should live up to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bricklyne Posted July 25, 2005 Share Posted July 25, 2005 Ok, I'm just going to chalk this up to some kind of linguistic misunderstanding or something or another lost in translation; especially seeing as I had a hard enough time figuring out what you were trying to say in your most recent post. And if, for that same reason, I have misunderstood you and misinterpreted you in this response, then I ask that you excuse me. First of all, the reason I pointed out that I have 2 friends serving (or who had served) in Iraq, had nothing to do with making it seem like I was more qualified to speak on the subject than you or anyone else for that matter. I was merely trying to give you an understanding for why I felt the way I did. But clearly, you did not see it that way. I did not at any point in my previous post say that you cannot have an opinion (although I would be remiss to point out to you, that stating that someone else's opinion is "bullshit" as you did mine, can justifiably be considered to be doing just that) on the war or otherwise. I merely stated that voicing opinions, as you have, based on loose or unwarranted assumptions or on manipulated evidence as the Al-Jazeera website you linked to, does, is not only discourteous and impertinent, but also bears the potential for breeding a lot of hatred and conflict. Yes, you're right in stating that everybody in the world should have an opnion on what's going on in the world. But with that right comes the responsibility to insure that that opnion or those opinions are well-informed and as accurate as one can possibly afford to make them so, within their means of economic discretion; and not just jump to the nearest, and dare I say, laziest, conclusion and assumptions ( like the assumption that someone is American when they are really not.). And the fact that we ( you and I ) live in the West, as you correctly pointed out, with far greater access to news and information, simply means that the burden of responsibility not to jump to conclusions, have ill-informed opinions, and think in stereotypes, is even greater. If it offends you that I'm merely recommending that you endevour to ensure that your opinions are better informed before making them, then you have a far bigger problem than the fact that your opinions are not as informed as they need to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael-k Posted July 25, 2005 Share Posted July 25, 2005 Try to point out where you think im not informed. If its the Al-Jazeera link you dont like. Would it be better if I was linking to CNN or danish television ? I belive when I saw it, they dident talk about that this information was coming from Al-Jazeera..... Edit: and your "( like the assumption that someone is American when they are really not.)" was not that i belive you was american, actually I dident se your nationality before I was finish writing. It has something to do with that here in euorpe we see USA as the western country how knows less about whats going on outside there own country. Thats why I said american. I dident mean that you was american. But again I have not been there and talk to every single american, so then you dont have to say it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted July 25, 2005 Share Posted July 25, 2005 Hey guys, Can we keep this type of thread on another forum. I really don't like this type of thread on the site. While off-topic, if serves no purpose but to insight long threads that go back and forth and get out of control. Thanks, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael-k Posted July 25, 2005 Share Posted July 25, 2005 Hey guys, Can we keep this type of thread on another forum. I really don't like this type of thread on the site. While off-topic, if serves no purpose but to insight long threads that go back and forth and get out of control. Thanks, Jeff No problem sorry. bricklyne: I have wrote your post one time more and I belive I missed a few of your points, because of my bad english. sorry about that. No hard feelings from here, hope the same from you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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