Ernest Burden III Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 I think I'm going somewhere with this... I was thinking about the various sub-skills of a renderer. I made a list, breaking it down. I left out issues of client relations, computer maintenance, contracts, etc. Please comment and add as you see fit: DATA GATHERING entourage photos site photos gathering/reviewing/formatting client CAD and other files gathering/importing GIS data gathering/importing/formatting material samples, fixture models, IES files MODELING architectural models of main subject models of background structures site model--roads, topo, geo features exterior entourage models i.e. cars, trees, lamps interior models i.e. furniture, lamps VIEW OPTIONS/OUTPUT deciding view options for client review render out view options LIGHTING setting up lighting, testing ANIMATING camera paths animation and paths for entourage test output TEXTURING clipping and formatting entourage images Photoshop work on texture maps applying textures to models RENDERING testing/deciding final render settings programming network/distributed renders POST/PHOTOSHOP adding entourage overall retouching, color correction, layered output work ANIM COMPOSITING loading footage, stills, graphics, audio into compositor programming animation decide output settings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DennisHolland Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Hi Ernest, Very usefull thread here. Nicely organised in an understandable overview! Does it make sense to add VR production in it or do you think those are core-skills or skills too niche to mention (yet)? My clients ask for it more and more... I've allready printed the list, Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted August 10, 2005 Author Share Posted August 10, 2005 Does it make sense to add VR production in it or do you think those are core-skills or skills too niche to mention (yet)? My clients ask for it more and more... It does--as a seperate category--assuming it has tasks not covered on the main list (which should be concidered a beta). Would you write them, please? I don't do much of that myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pipjor Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Ernest, nice.... your last item "decide output settings" probally needs to be defined before you render out all your frames..maybe in the VIEW OPTIONS/OUTPUT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted August 10, 2005 Author Share Posted August 10, 2005 your last item "decide output settings" probally needs to be defined before you render out all your frames..maybe in the VIEW OPTIONS/OUTPUT What I meant by that was deciding whether you were doing QT, or MPEG, or whatever and what compression works, etc. But feel free to re-write and post any part of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sawyer Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Cant but help to add "Interpretation of Architectural Materials". Seems thats often a large part whether its cad or hand drawing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted August 10, 2005 Author Share Posted August 10, 2005 Cant but help to add "Interpretation of Architectural Materials". Seems thats often a large part whether its cad or hand drawing. That's what I meant by 'formatting' -- turning them into something understandable/useable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DennisHolland Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 VR/Interaction: Preproduction: Optimizing scenes render2texture uv-unwrap objects apply optimized textures interpretation of realtime lighting Production: ICT skills Exporting objects Java / vrml knowledge html publishing for web Since this is a beta, the list is open for suggestions/forgotten items Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Nelson Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 So what is it you are trying to accomplish with this list? Maybe find some categories that you would be able to outsource? Or is it just to help show why we are always so friggin busy!? What about personal development/training? You can always have somebody do computer maintenance and billing, marketing, etc. But there is nobody else that can 'make' you a better renderer except yourself. There is always the need to stay current on software as well as what everyone else out there is doing. I realize that is not part of the actual process of producing a rendering, but where would any of us be without it? Maybe there could be a seperate category for things like these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted August 10, 2005 Author Share Posted August 10, 2005 So what is it you are trying to accomplish with this list? Maybe find some categories that you would be able to outsource? That's about it. No, it isn't. I am trying to think from the standpoint of finding the right help for projects, whether its on-demand freelance or salaried staff. Part of what this list illustrates is that maybe we all aren't equally good at all of these things. Those we are not good at become good candidates for hiring out or self-improvement. Someone looking for work can use it to point out the things they are best at, maybe even have varied rates by skilllevel per skill area. What about personal development/training?...There is always the need to stay current on software as well as what everyone else out there is doing. Agreed, but I am looking at a production list. If you want to write up those things as a new catagory, please do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moshenko Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Nicely done. This is an expanded version of the information I include in all of my proposals. I break down the project into sections that help to describe the workflow, and assign dollar amounts to each section. I've found that this has greatly helped educate clients on the real work being done on their project. The end result of more education is, of course, a better understanding of what can and can't be done, how long things take to be done and why things cost extra when they're requested. So, aside from being a good list to figure out production roles, this could server others well in helping to format their proposals/quotes if others were so inclined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Nelson Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 No, it isn't. I am trying to think from the standpoint of finding the right help for projects, whether its on-demand freelance or salaried staff. Part of what this list illustrates is that maybe we all aren't equally good at all of these things. Those we are not good at become good candidates for hiring out or self-improvement. Someone looking for work can use it to point out the things they are best at, maybe even have varied rates by skilllevel per skill area. Yeah, thats a good idea. We could make our own versions of baseball cards, saying what our strong/weak points are. But really, it would be cool to have a collective resource of talent that we could choose from and know who to hire for what kind of job. It might not work to rank ourselves, but perhaps there could be a public system of reviewing others that we have worked with in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted August 10, 2005 Author Share Posted August 10, 2005 it would be cool to have a collective resource of talent that we could choose from and know who to hire for what kind of job. That is where I was headed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bperry Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Included in your Modeling section (or perhaps the gathering section, or ...) should be a line that I'm always encountering. At the time that I'm creating models, renderings and animations, only some of the building parts have been designed & drawn. For instance, I may get the front, and maybe a couple sides and a plan for a restaurant, but the back (loading area/garbage, etc.) hasn't even been thought of. I will try to avoid having to build these areas, but inevitably they want to see the entire building. I recently did an interior where a dining room hadn't been designed yet, but the client continually wanted to look toward an arch where the dining room would be located. I tried putting generic dining room maps in the archway which they hated. I built a generic dining room but that drew too much attention. Finally I ended up putting a drapery in the arch with a sign that read "coming soon". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Nelson Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Right, so maybe that could be called "interpretive design". There are some renderers that have extensive design experience and are better at filling in the details than the ones that don't have much design experience, or just don't like trying to read the clients mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted August 10, 2005 Author Share Posted August 10, 2005 Right, so maybe that could be called "interpretive design". There are some renderers that have extensive design experience and are better at filling in the details Good point! I missed that one. But please write up these sorts of ideas in the list form so its easier to incorporate into a new version. The other obvious use for such a list would be a master checklist for project planning. Yes, you would need to flush out sub-sub tasks, but this will make a good beginning. And by having feedback from the rest of you, we will come up with things that some of us may have missed. Hopefully this will be widely useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Denby Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 How about adding 'tweaking' at the end, you know, just when you thought it was done, the client wants that tree moving or the the overhang on the roof reducing. It all takes time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackb602 Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 How about a category at the end of the list for "output." This could include printing, mounting, etc. or coordinating that work with a 3rd party. This is a great thread, and I like the ideas about gathering more information for/about freelancers. I'm getting to that stage where I may need to start looking for one soon. For those of you who have used freelancers, how important is it for you to be able to meet face to face with someone, as opposed to working with someone online? Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted August 10, 2005 Author Share Posted August 10, 2005 How about a category at the end of the list for "output." This could include printing, mounting, etc. or coordinating that work with a 3rd party. Very good! For those of you who have used freelancers, how important is it for you to be able to meet face to face with someone, as opposed to working with someone online? Not at all. You have to feel you can trust them, but you can usually tell that from email/forum contacts. I've worked with a number of people from this forum and it has always been great. Some of them I still have not met. Eventually you may have a bad experience, but I figure it would be rare. I've had none, working with people in the US and outside of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mana Posted August 12, 2005 Share Posted August 12, 2005 Edward: Sounds like you'd be a perfect source to consult. I have been using 3ds for about a month, and have used VIZ in the past. I would like to add entourage to my visualizations, but am unsure of how to import or apply JPEG/TIFF files as maps in 3Ds MAX. Can you advise? Thanks in advance, Mana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted August 19, 2005 Author Share Posted August 19, 2005 A few mods, added suggested items: DATA GATHERING entourage photos site photos gathering/reviewing/formatting client CAD and other files gathering/importing GIS data scanning material samples gathering/importing/formatting material samples, fixture models, IES files making stuff up--client leaves design to renderer MODELING architectural models of main subject models of background structures site model--roads, topo, geo features exterior entourage models i.e. cars, trees, lamps interior models i.e. furniture, lamps VIEW OPTIONS/OUTPUT deciding view options for client review render out view options LIGHTING setting up lighting, testing ANIMATING camera paths animation and paths for entourage test output TEXTURING clipping and formatting entourage images Photoshop work on texture maps applying textures to models RENDERING testing/deciding final render settings programming network/distributed renders POST/PHOTOSHOP scanning hand-drawn/painted elements including layouts/drawings toning, 'airbrushing' compositing photos of existing site, environments adding entourage overall retouching, color correction, layered output work ANIM COMPOSITING loading footage, stills, graphics, audio into compositor programming animation decide output settings DELIVERABLES making/outsourcing prints mounting prints, matting, framing burn CDs/DVDs deliver, messenger, FedEx Upload to FTP site VR/Interaction: Preproduction: Optimizing scenes render2texture uv-unwrap objects apply optimized textures interpretation of realtime lighting Production: ICT skills Exporting objects Java / vrml knowledge html publishing for web Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Denby Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 Makes you realise how skilled we all are. Must charge more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vertexART Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 What a great thread Ernest, nicely done. Looking at the updated list makes me wonder "can a single person do all that?" The point about hiring a freelancer or someone 'better' in certain section, which will contribute to the overall quality of the render, stands more strongly in terms of TIME... thing we almost never have. Even if a person has all those qualities equal, rare are the projects which he'll be able to handle by deadline, imho. Great thread guys, list printed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted August 19, 2005 Author Share Posted August 19, 2005 Looking at the updated list makes me wonder "can a single person do all that?" Unfortunately, yes. Except for the VR portion, I do all that. Even if a person has all those qualities equal, rare are the projects which he'll be able to handle by deadline, imho. Right. Help me, I'm lost! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DennisHolland Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 I do all of it, including VR (if I have to) As for the deadlines; a deadline can be set during the first briefing and routed in the most right timespan. If a deadline can not be reached by you alone, you should have enough authority and knowledge of all of the above to give direction to the outsourcing team when needed. I know it can not always run smoothly (a project) but then i enjoy the thrill of the challenging aspects as an excuse. Mostly it turns out quite nicely when there's passion for the job involved as we all have, may I hope? This thread makes me think about the start of the visualizing skills. Old timers, sitting alone in a little atelier and surrounded by all sorts of pencils, paper, wax and loads of aquarel-paint and brushes. Enjoying their job every day. What we do is the same, only rediculously blown out of proportion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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