Is there any value left being a visualizer?

[mesht]

i know this issue has been discused before, but i have been thinking for the past few days about the future of being a 3d artist, and i will be open and transparent about it.....

 

i was intially trained as an interior designer, but ended up being a visualizer, or on my path of becoming a professional one, i hope it was the only precious talent i have to survive.

 

as my works keep improving, i was approached by clients and companys' to do visualization jobs...sad thing or rather, frustrating is, whenever i present to them my scope of service, either they won't reply back or they just simply disappear after a few enquiries.

 

so...now i want to know, to get honest feedback, clients wants the best from visualizers, but not willing to pay, that is common, the thing is, how much are visualizers charging their clients in general? every freelancer has his own price, but just thinking are the charges i'm charging are ridiculous? or nowadays, people are not willing to pay for quality and effort?

 

well....hope to hear your feedback

[Devin Johnston]

Part of the problem is that architectural firms that have dedicated visualization departments tend to give a lot of work away in order to secure potential projects. In my case I'm one of these people and my firm uses renderings and animations to a great extent during the interview process in order to dazzle the client in order to get the job. It's also pretty common to do at least one rendering for each project we have but most of the time it's more like 5 or 10 for each job. These are not high quality renderings, usually they take 2 or 3 days to do but it gives the client what they want. We can get away with this because we build a little cushion into each job for these types of services, and if we have to do more complicated renderings or animations we charge those separately. I generally charge $90 an hour for all my services including animations unless it's a large project for which I'll charge between $10,000 and $15,000 per minute of animation. It's really all about marketing and what jobs you've done in the past and how badly your clients need this kind of service. Your best bet is to get a job with a firm that already has an established client base, otherwise your going to kill your self by undercharging what your work is worth just to get some jobs from cheep architects who don't appreciate what there asking for.

[Iain Denby]

i know this issue has been discused before, but i have been thinking for the past few days about the future of being a 3d artist, and i will be open and transparent about it.....

 

i was intially trained as an interior designer, but ended up being a visualizer, or on my path of becoming a professional one, i hope it was the only precious talent i have to survive.

 

as my works keep improving, i was approached by clients and companys' to do visualization jobs...sad thing or rather, frustrating is, whenever i present to them my scope of service, either they won't reply back or they just simply disappear after a few enquiries.

 

so...now i want to know, to get honest feedback, clients wants the best from visualizers, but not willing to pay, that is common, the thing is, how much are visualizers charging their clients in general? every freelancer has his own price, but just thinking are the charges i'm charging are ridiculous? or nowadays, people are not willing to pay for quality and effort?

 

well....hope to hear your feedback

 

 

I suggest you post a typical image with the price you charge. That way, we can give you direct and honest answers to your question.

[Brian Cassil]

we can give you direct and honest answers to your question.

 

And I promise, we are nothing, if not direct and honest.

[mesht]

thanks guys for your feedback:)

 

Maxer; i'm now working with one of the biggest and well-established

architectural firms & my primary role is as a visualizer, but 70% of the 3d and renderings were outsourced because of shortage of good visualizers and time issues. my firm doesn't have the resources to do animations, but i was surprised at the amount difference in animations, here, typical animations vary in prices, lowest around $1000 to as high as a few hundred thousands to $1 million,for a fully-detailed showroom, and these last more than 10 mins, and i mean detailed to the max, fully textured with raytrace.

 

as requested, these are my last projects, two of them is from my clients'. i use them as my introduction portfolio to potential client's and companys', for the ones i done with a client, i charge S$300 per render in any size, and even that was negiotiated down to $200. the other, an exterior rendering, was initially proposed at $700 for architectural exteriors.

 

now, from what i know, a few freelancers working with my company charge between a min of S$500 per render to $1200. that's the market rate at the moment, and at a price of $1200 per render, a max. of 20 changes are allowed. other freelancers charge lowest $300 per render.

 

ok...from the level of my rendering, do give me a rating value so i can learn from my weakness

[Devin Johnston]

You are seriously undercharging for your work, I don't care what country you’re in. I wouldn’t do these images for less than $2000 a piece, and these are worth at least that much. I think you've got to see it like this, the architect who wants the work done is going to use it to either sell his ideas to a client and based on what the client sees he will either accept the designs or want to make changes. In reality it doesn’t matter how well the architect is, it's your images that are selling his projects. Now if there are people out there who are willing to put in all that work for $200 or $400 per image you have to give your client a reason why your work is superior to theirs and don't back down when they want to negotiate on the price. I'm just curious, how long do you think it took you to do the interior rendering including all the modeling, lighting, and texturing time?

[Iain Denby]

I agree with Maxer, those prices are rediculous! in the uk these images would go for £1500 - £2500 (UK).

 

If you quoted $50 per visual, your client would try and negotiate you down to $25...it's what they do!

 

If you charge less eventually you will be valued less.

[Sawyer]

And you know people change their minds. I get many people coming to me almost ready for me to work for them then the city needs a change & I don't hear from them for 6 months. I just bid a project & I was I thought really low I was later told that they gave it to a photographer who charged hundreds less than me. Always sucks to hear that & I have learned another thing - I consider myself to be good at what I do and people don't always want that. Sometimes a cheaper solution with a more mediocre product is OK for them, not all of our clients are Ghery or even artists. They don't care that the image doesn't look as good as it could.

 

I was asked for a quote for one project I said $500 it was pretty easy and simple (I already had the buiding modeled) but I didn't quite trust the client so I added a couple more dollars just to be safe. He saw my price said he wasn't interested said he had a drafter who could do it.

I saw the final it was just a cad model no materials or advanced lighting. It was just printed on regualr paper black & white the shadows were pitch black. CAD shaded model that was it, cost the guy almost nothing and he was extremely happy with it. I would have put it on the site and added trees and cars... but not what he needed.

Here is the catch 22 of much of what we do - architects want us to make their work look good only if their work looks good. Not everyone is trying to make attractive buildings, some architects make strip malls, box stores and low income apartments, and storage facilities. If you need a rendering of these you might not want to go to the best illustrators to have it done. Why pay the money for the best illustration of the most commonplace buildings?

[Devin Johnston]

I think the bottom line is that there are certain types of people that high end illustrators just shouldn’t be doing work for because they can't afford what you have to offer. I'll tell you that if I did accept a rendering job for $300 I sure wouldn’t spend the time on it that I would on a $2000 image. If there not satisfied with that then maybe next time they’ll think twice before they try to get something for nothing.

[alexg]

From what you are saying, I take it that you are working in Sing firm?

 

Forgive me for saying this, but Singaporean arch firms AND their clients are the WORST client of all.

We have had a lot of really ugly experience with them lowering the price so much and demanding a lot.

If this is what they treat their outsource firms, then I guess internal dept is so much worse.

 

There are 2 typical situation going on there.

1. lots of firm wants a project so badly it's willing to sacrifice not getting paid if the client don't like the proposal, meaning fees are going to be slashed big time. If the arch firm doesn't get a penny, how much do you think they will pay visualizer??

For this case, the arch firm will do almost minimal / no work required, depending a lot on the visualizer to 'do whatever necessary on our artistic ability' to deliver THEIR project. We received a lot of project with just a rough masterplan sketch or just a plan dwg and a lot of scanned images of magazines..... then expect us to give a bombastic image. Imagine you have to design and to visualize at the same time.

Worse still, some arch firm has that bad attitude of yelling to you if the image doesnt suit their 'expected imagination'

To make things really bad, some even have a clause in contract saying they can sue you if their client reject their proposal because of 'unsatisfactory' quality of presentation.

Tough eh? Unfair ? you bet it is

 

2. This is a bit better than the first one, but still gives you a big headache.

Sing firms like to dwell in the dwgs a lot..... meaning they will give you all info at the very last minute. Most of your datas will be changed entirely at the last day of your scheduled deadline. I got one project that has been changed to a completely different architecture in the last day.

And no, you cant complaint, because it's not 'their way' of doing things. We are to share their risk. Worse case scenario is if you deliver badly or miss deadline, they will blame you for everything. That almost always means re-negotiating your pre-approved fee..... or most of the time risk very very long delay of payment (4-5 mo even up to a year)

I know this might not mean a lot to freelancers. But once you got several clients your scheduling is going to be hell.

One project of ours has 62 revisions in total. Just make sure you put a clause in the contract stating exactly how much revision is accomodated. And make sure all revision requests are in writings / emails. They will argue about this later on.

 

We aren't really keen to accept any Sing clients anymore, except for the really old friends / clients, because of these problems.

 

FYI, we charge 3x to 10x of what you charge for your clients. We had charged at around double your price once but it is twice the headache. So better raise it up. They need you anyway, it's either you are available or you are not. Most of the time the client say our fees are too much, but they return anyway. With that kind of hectic way of doing the arch work, it's your availability that counts. If they say you are charging too much, just remember of your medical expenses of burning those midnight oils before you reply.

And do remember that over there, there's no hourly rate all is lumpsum price.

 

Sorry its a really long reply...... just something I thought need to be shared.

[pablo scapi]

Just to add mi two cents.

 

Maxer wrote:

 

"I don't care what country you’re in."

 

Sorry to disagree maxer, but that is the most important thing to know when you are comparing prices, and not only in this case but life in general.

For example, i´m fron Uruguay, the minimun salary there is 100 or 150 american dollars, If you are lucky and have a nice job you could earn as much as 400 U$. The cost of live is of course cheaper than US, and that´s why it´s imposible to compare an if you haven´t lived in a totally diferent country than yours, and experienced different economy situations you can´t judge others budgets.

 

Now i´m living in Spain and again it´s a diferent situation, and of course the price i can charge here for a render is much more than Uruguay, (still not as high as US thoug)

 

Well, hope i didn´t sound too rough, i can express my self in english, but not sure if i sound the way i pretend.

 

Cheers.

[thinice]

For me the trick is to find the client who would pay for whatever you are asking. In general I don't bother approaching architects.

 

Because of that, nowadays I only do animations because it is easier to approach developers or contractors with it. If you show only images, they would relegate you to deal with architects.

 

Even if an architect approach me, I would say to them directly,

 

" Are you sure you can afford me. Otherwise, why don't we get your client to pay for it"

 

Here in Malaysia, the market price for exterior illustrations if between USD300 to USD 1500 if you are good. Don't ask about interiors. You will be lucky if somebody will pay USD 200 for it, and course they would want it all in radiosity.

 

I charge about USD 2500 - USD 3500 per minute for my animation, final delivery in DVD format. You can take a look at the samples at my website http://www.realismstudio.com (they are generally speeded up twice the original speed).

 

If anybody thinks I am undercharging, I am very keen to take on jobs from outside Malaysia. I'll do all the work and you can mark up on it and keep the difference.

[Ernest Burden III]

For me the trick is to find the client who would pay for whatever you are asking. In general I don't bother approaching architects.

 

Because of that, nowadays I only do animations because it is easier to approach developers or contractors with it. If you show only images, they would relegate you to deal with architects.

 

That is remarkably well stated. I have the same thought, though never expressed it that well.

 

I mostly work for architects, but realize why that is a problem, as you stated.

 

Rates in the US vary a lot by location, too. It's not just a USA vs World pricing issue. The top markets here are probably New York, Boston, Chicago and Miami. I think NY rates are highest, but certain people in the others will out-price us in NY, so its hard to say for sure.

[mesht]

thank you for all the informative feedbacks

 

that's what i'm been trying to do all along, raise my asking price!!

 

maxer: over here in Sg, the price you are mentioning i guarantee heads will instantly say NO! that's the reality in Sg and it's very sad. yes, over here, competition is very high and a lot of good visualizers are fading away to those who can do less quality with dirt cheap prices. so now, i make my stand on my pricing no negiotation about it. highest so far a freelancer i know is charging at S$1200 per piece, in Sg, that is considered high and only high-profile firms and clients could afford such a fee

 

sawyer: it happens to me too, i propose my fee and was later told by my close network of visualizers that the person use an amatuer renderer to do the job for super cheap, more like cheap labour. like u say, a job even a drafter can do, and the client was happy cos he pay much less!!

 

alexg: i have to admit about your obervation that it is true and a sad fact though. yes, i work for a local Sg. firm but offices based worldwide. reality now is do more, pay less!! i do sympathize on your unpleasant experience, but that is what is really happening, architects and designers undercutting each other to fight for jobs and in the end, suffer losses in terms of manpower, expenditure, time, labour. sudden change in planning and ideas is getting a norm, i was told to do a full-scale render in less than a day to rush for an important presentation, in the end, seeing that it is virtually imposibble for 1 man work, it was postpone and all my one's days effort wasted.

 

one thing i observed about my firm, although is renowned locally, they are still willing to pay S$1K plus to freelancers for the jobs, it's a positive sign but hope can be better that there are still firms around to appreciate quality work, maybe could due to the firms high-profile and status, i don't know.

 

different parts of the world offer different prices, but i think there have to be a kind of standard so as to protect the visualizers...but i think it's difficult to implement.

 

anyway, Maxer, the interior rendering start from cad plans to final rendering takes approx two days, including test rendetings and adjustments, but not the whole of 24hrs of course

 

thinice: at least you are charging by USD$, here, no way, all in S$...so you

are at least in a better situation

[thinice]

thinice: at least you are charging by USD$, here, no way, all in S$...so you

are at least in a better situation

 

mesht,

 

I do not charge in USD for local work but that is how much it comes down to -just for the benefit of other forummers here.

[thinice]

Another thing,

 

I don't mean to be mean to architects but pls stay away from architects who want to use you to bid for projects. The only time I do it is for a favour so they would recommend me to their clients for other things.

 

Go for their client. I found out that life becomes much easier once I manage to impress the architect's clients.

 

Sometimes, they even held my work in higher regard than the architect's work (which I feel sorry for, because the architects do work harder than me - in most cases)

[mesht]

thinice

 

thx for the info

 

may i know how is the status of designers/architects/visualizers there in Malaysia?

 

over here, in general, getting too saturated, less projects and stagnant creativity. most of my client's are actually project consultants who don't do drawings but sales, so not so bad as being directly under architects.

 

maybe one of the reasons y clients feel comfortable working with visualizers because they know how to express their drawings in relation to the clients's brief, being expert in 3d world, that helps in conveying ideas much 'softer'? i not sure, just my thoughts

 

oh btw, saw your website, impressive i must say

[thinice]

Just some thoughts on the situation as I see it in Malaysia

 

Construction work are pretty slow but we are a bigger country than Singapore. So, there are still niches and the Malaysian businessmen are in general quite creative in exploiting opportunities.

 

I won't go so far as to say we are a nation of cheapskates but cost is a major issue because the economy is not doing too well and nobody like to take risks under the current situation.

 

Having said that, for a typical commercial project, you are talking about USD 30m to USD100m in potential sales. So, to spend say USD50k on visualisation is not going to break the bank if the value is evident.

 

So, what is important for a freelancer or person running a firm, is to think in business term. You do not have to take every job that comes along. If the demand is not there, you have to find ways to create it.

 

And you have to evolve to match the market. I used to have a full time team under me but nowadays, I rely on outsourcing to certain parties that I know well.

 

What I see is that we need more good people not just to raise standard by competing against one another but to do things like promotions to the external public, explaining value, figuring out standard contracts etc.

 

I truly believe that we can expand the pie much more with regard to architectural visualisation but we may need to be more professional and organised.

[mesht]

thanks for the feedback thinice

 

i do agree that economies are not doing that well as predicted, even in sg, there are people still jobless. competition is very high and whoever the best survive, well, that's the reality now....

 

after some informative feedbacks you guys gave me, another issue just sprang up. just recently, i was offered a job to design a whole 2-storey private house, from scratch plus some A&A works.

 

it was through a sales designer and a property agent. i'm as the designer. so, the agent, on behalf of the clients whom i haven't met before, was asking for an exciting design proposals for the house and need the drawings to be ready by 7 days!! now, that is a bit impossible as i'm not working on it full-time,as a freelance basis.

 

so, i forsee a lot of work needed and some research is also required. i have estimated at least a min. of 6 to 10 perspectives required to convey my designs. again, this time, i worked out the cost and design fees, present to them and they just disappear without even trying to negiotiate...so you see, the sad fact...they want good designs but won't pay even if it means my sleep is deprived, my time, my effort...

 

anyway, is SGD$2500 to SGD$4000 as design fees too much? this includes all the cost, labour etc....for the whole house+plus consultation+research

 

your comments are appreciated

[alexg]

Hi Mesht

 

We survived Indonesia's economic recession in 1997-now, and we face exactly the same problem.

I think you need to gamble on this one. If you are dealing with client (developer) directly it is easier to play your card. It is fine if client want to ask your artistic / creative capability, but make sure that they are paying and they don't just pass your design to someone else / draftsmen that are much cheaper leaving you with nothing.

 

Just make a really good design, then stamp it huge on the image, make sure it is very visible and annoying, but readable. Put a small disclaimer on parts of the image saying full unstamped image is available upon payment or something. Make sure they cannot remove it digitally without really hard effort.

Then (this is what we used to do) don't make anything on scale, oversize bits and pieces, especially on floorplans and elevations (if you provide any).

This will force the developer to get back to you (if they like the design) and confuse anyone else handed down the project.

 

Then once the project is not paid (or seems to be) put them in your website, give full detail description of it.

The last thing a client / developer wants is an unauthorized expose of their future project, and they can't do anything to you about it since they are not paying the agreeable fee. Anything unpaid should be yours to use for your own marketing campaign.

 

Anyway, this is how we survived. But it will only work if your design is exceptionally good and feasible. Takes a lot of hard work but it is a really good shot.

 

And one more thing, get your fee proposal ready, once the client contact you back because they like the design, just shove it and make them sign before any consultation, and ask for deposit.

[mesht]

Thx for the advice alexg:)

 

well, none of them get back to me. i have to go through the sales consultant, and then the agent and then the client. quite a long route, so there's a possibility of communication breakdown.

 

what you recommend is good, and probably i need to draft some kind of terms & conditions documents. happen to me once some of my drawings was put up on their company website without my permission and authorization, and those dwgs wasn't paid yet! that really piss me off and that's y i came up with my own set of rules....

 

so now, without any signature upon agreement, i will not proceed until certain amount of intial payment is done. i told them straight if you want good quality designs, pay for it!! not worth my cents creating good quality dwgs and get paid cheaply.