single Athlon in an MP system?

[Ernest Burden III]

OK, Greg, or other experts: In looking at a new computer, I may buy a cheaper machine quicker and later kick it to be a backup system. A new 'killer' machine is still very expensive, and I'm not running software that is going to do much with a multi-processor system. However, maybe getting a good platform, paying a bit more now, and upgrading it to be the 'killer' later is an idea, too.

 

Is there much involved in upgrading from one CPU in an Athlon MP box? It cost a bit more, but preserves upgradability. If I get a single XP I'm stuck with one CPU, but can keep a system to about US$2000 w/o monitor, probably from Alienware--Boxxtech seems to only sell systems with Quatro cards, and I would be budget-minded enough to want to stick to a GF4/128MB/4X AGP, as discussed in other threads.

 

Are there certain speeds of the Athlons that do better/should be avoided?

 

I'll re-read recent posts here for more wisdom

Thanks in advance

[Greg Hess]

Ernest,

 

Depending on how long your expecting to wait...you could just buy a single athlon XP. (If you really wanted to save money that is). Then just buy a pair of MP's later. 2400+ MP's are going for around 200ish right now in the states, while the XP's are around 120-130ish. Could also pick up something like a 1700 or 1800+ XP for 50 bucks.

 

You can also go single MP, but its usually recommended to buy them as a paired unit for stability reasons. Its not necessary however.

 

[ March 20, 2003, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: Greg Hess ]

[bigcahunak]

Here is what I think...

If you want a dual system then get it dual, and better saving with buying slower CPUs). If you are thinking about single then its better to use a single mobo as their platform (chipset) is way better than the duals' one (VIA KT400 vs. AMD MPX) you can get a lot more juice from your CPU, and not to mention the memory bandwidth, speed and price (regged vs. unbuffered).

BTW: have you heard about the L5 bridge trick on the Athlon XPs?

[Greg Hess]

BTW: have you heard about the L5 bridge trick on the Athlon XPs?

 

Have you read about the over 40% failure rate? Its not worth the risk. Websites and online forum's rarely talk about the failures. Everybody posts their successes, cause nobody wants to be the idiot who wasted 300 USD trying to hack some XP's into MP's. But you know who hears about the failures? The administrators, the consultants, and the guy everyone is constantly emailing asking for tech advice.

 

The primary difference between XP and MP cpu's is this...

 

MP processors are tested for SMP capability and stability in a variety of tests. XP chips are either not tested OR FAILED the MP tests.

 

MP's aren't THAT much more expensive. Really, whats 160 USD? I'd pay 160 USD more for stability. (80 USD more per chip)

 

Remember just a few years ago, it cost almost 700 USD for a PII450.

[Ernest Burden III]

If you are thinking about single then its better to use a single mobo as their platform (chipset) is way better than the duals' one (VIA KT400 vs. AMD MPX)

The main reason to want a dual at this point is because they are there, as in "turn it up to 11, you see, it goes to 11". My CAD program, Lightscape and Photoshop--I don't think any of these are truely multi-threading. Maybe Rhino?

 

I do tend to background running programs to free up the desktop to do something else, but having more than one machine running would do the same thing.

 

Certainly cost-wise the XP is a good choice--but with an MP it goes to 11, doesn't it?

[Greg Hess]

(VIA KT400 vs. AMD MPX)

 

Just noticed this. You'll want to avoid the KT400 and KT400A if your planning on upgrading to AMD's new barton chips in april/may. The new Barton's run at a 400 FSB, and neither the KT400, nor the NEW KT400a support this front side bus. The first Via board to support the new 400 FSB, will be the KT600, which will be available later this year.

 

Currently the nforce2 boards support the 400 FSB, as well as supporting all of the Barton line. I wouldn't consider buying anything but an nforce2 at the current time. Their unbelievably rock solid motherboards...and fast to boot.

 

Turning it up to 11 is always great. The three apps you mentioned all have multithreaded capabilities. They should all benefit. Not sure about your cad program, but I know Photoshop is at least partially multithreaded, and I'm pretty sure lightscape is as well. (So is rhino I believe).

 

Remember as well, that a dual processor system has the ability to assign tasks to individual processors. So even if an app ISN'T multithreaded, if your multitasking, you can assign different apps to different cpus for maximum performance.

 

[ March 21, 2003, 07:56 AM: Message edited by: Greg Hess ]

[Ernest Burden III]

So even if an app ISN'T multithreaded, if your multitasking, you can assign different apps to different cpus for maximum performance.

Thank you so much everyone, but especially Greg. I think I should look at getting an MP but still be budget-minded by getting a slightly slower CPU set and upgrading that later.

[bigcahunak]

For sure LS isn't multithreaded!

Don't think DataCAD is multithreaded...

VIA, Nforce, SIS... are all faster than MPX with a single CPU (that was my main objective) plus you get all the sound, lan, raid, USB2... with a better memory bandwidth.

Unless you really want the dual, which is great.

[Greg Hess]

LS isn't multithreaded?

 

Hmm I thought it was. I'll check it when I get home, I'll assume your right, since I've used it maybe once or twice.

 

Your right about the single boards being superior in terms of features and bandwidth. But thats understandable considering thet 760MPX is unchanged in the past year and a half.

[Richie]

Hello

 

Don't go with Dual AMD.

You will get more for your money if you buy a Dual Xeon System.

Since the 7505 ChipSet is out, Intel is the better choice.

And you will allways make profit from a Dual System in this business, no matter if you think you don't need it.

 

Richie

[Christian Miranda]

Hi,

 

A dual Xeon machine only justifies its cost for Architectural Illustration if the artist uses a bucket renderer like Brazil R/S and Vray (those renderers use hyperthreading very efficiently to speed up renderings). If any other non bucket renderer is used the dual athlon is by far more cost effective.

 

The source of information regarding the dual Xeon performance with HT enbled is a preview (posted here on CGA by the author) of Greg Hess´s upcomming hardware review.

 

Cheers!

 

[ March 22, 2003, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: Christian Miranda ]

[Richie]

Hello

 

No, I'm not talking about HT, since you can NOT use HT in a regular system anyway.

Memory for Dual AMD costs ~45% more than the memory for Dual Xeon.

The Costs for the motherboards and periferial components are the same.

 

I say Xeon, because: AMD loosing the path...

While Intel making Xeon tehnology cheaper and cheaper...

 

On the long run, Intel will win this run (I mean you can't never know, but:).

 

Richie

 

(I accidently hit the edit button, which is why it says, edited by greg hess, sorry)

 

[ March 22, 2003, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Greg Hess ]

[bigcahunak]

Originally posted by Richie:

Hello

 

...The Costs for the motherboards and periferial components are the same.

Which 7505 board cost $200? and where...?

[Greg Hess]

Memory for Dual AMD costs ~45% more than the memory for Dual Xeon.

 

Both the E7505 and AMD 760MPX chipset use Registered ECC PC2100 DDR.

 

You can purchase a Xeon board which allows for unbuffered ram to be used...but you cut your max ram by 4 gigs. (4 dimms instead of 6)

 

If you want to use unbuffered ram on the AMD760MPX, it just cuts the max ram down as well. (Only 2 dimms instead of 4)

 

The budget Xeon board does make some sacrifices. Its dependent on the individual's necessary individual use, whether they go for the default E7505 boards, or the slimed down ones. If they go with the default ones, they'll be using exactly the same ram as the AMD760MPX Athlon MP boards.

 

The Costs for the motherboards and periferial components are the same.

 

Xeon powersupplies are a bit more expensive if you want to go with the EPS connectors. MPX boards (sans one models) use standard ATX. You can use standard ATX on the Xeon's..but once again, its another sacrifice. (Greater voltage variance when compared to the EPS connector)

 

Xeon's boards are also significantly more expensive. The cheapest Xeon available current (mboard) is probably the Supermicro X5DAL-G.

 

Its going for around 370 USD on pricewatch.com.

 

If you want to go for a decent Xeon board...X5DAE is around 430 USD.

 

The Dual AMD boards go for around 200 USD.

 

I say Xeon, because: AMD loosing the path...

While Intel making Xeon tehnology cheaper and cheaper...

 

I agree that the Dual Xeon's tend to offer the more superior solution for the time being...mostly due to the motherboard architecture being a few months old, as opposed to 760MPX which is almost going on two years now.

 

On the long run, Intel will win this run (I mean you can't never know, but:).

 

Opteron's are available April 22nd. Nuff said.

 

No, I'm not talking about HT, since you can NOT use HT in a regular system anyway.

 

Can you please elaborate on this? I've got a regular system, and HT is working just fine. Seems to improve a wide variety of tasks, including boot and response times.

 

[ March 22, 2003, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: Greg Hess ]

[Ernest Burden III]

Having started this thread I will interject that my plan is to call up a computermaker and buy a computer. My days of building computers is pretty much over. Similarly, while I can get up on a ladder and fix my own roof I would still call up a guy in the roof-fixing business and just pay him to do it while I stay in my studio doing what I get paid for. I was always proud of my computer hardware skills, but I have admitted that it is not what I do for a living. So I resign myself to being generally well-informed and pay others to build computers. Can I save enough cash by building and more importantly trouble-shooting a computer to justify the lost time at paying tasks? In my case, I doubt it. I should also admit that my current machine, the first I ever just 'bought' (from Polywell) has been the most trouble-free computer I have ever used. I have upgraded memory, video, OS, and the CPU, so I'm 'in there', but overall I'm glad I had an expert build it.

 

I mean no disrespect for those among us who build their own systems. For those just getting started in the business it may be the only way to get started. But once you are working it becomes harder to justify the cost in time to do something that other professionals do as well or better.

 

My choices are: for a low-cost machine- Polywell or Alienware, mid-level performer- Alienware of Boxxtech, top performer- Boxxtech -- any other makers I am missing?

[Richie]

Hello

 

I hope I can answer all questions..

 

We are OEM. I allways try to make the best price/value system for our customers.

I'm not Intel or AMD lover. I'll go with technology, that offers the most power on time/money.

We started with Intel. Than switched to AMD, and now we will make another switch to Intel (7505).

 

All new 7505 Boards using NON REGISTERED DDR Memory Modules. Which are cheaper than reg. ECC Memory Modules.

 

The new Tyan Tiger 7505 costs ~275,-EUR which is in the price range on other Dual AMD Boards.

I'll never recommend to go with some cheap Motherboard (Manufacturers) and Memory Modules (since I know the Market)...

 

Also this board using regular ATX case and a simple ENERMAX PSU (430W or higher).

 

For a single CPU System you will shurelly notify some improvements, but not if you have SMP System, since the threads are allready separated.

 

Richie

[Greg Hess]

All new 7505 Boards using NON REGISTERED DDR Memory Modules. Which are cheaper than reg. ECC Memory Modules.

 

The new Tyan Tiger 7505 costs ~275

 

The Tyan motherboards also have a 4 gigabyte ram limitation. The boards utilizing registered ECC DDR have a 12 gigabyte limitation. (Thats a pretty big difference)

 

Basically the unbuffered Tyan boards are the budget, or slimed down version of the e7505 chipset. As long as individuals are aware of this, its fine.

 

Also do remember that though unbuffered DDR is cheaper, its definitely not superior to registered DDR, especially when stability is concerned.

 

And ~275 is still a good deal more then a similar 760MPX board. 760MPX boards go for around 180-200 EUR.

 

For a single CPU System you will shurelly notify some improvements, but not if you have SMP System, since the threads are allready separated.

 

This is false. In Vray alone you see upwards of a 20-25% performance increase when enabling hyperthreading. However you must make sure to use Windows XP SP1, or Windows 2000 Server, or you will see no increase at all, and in cases of Windows 2000 Professional SP2, you'll actually see a rather massive performance decrease.

 

For other apps, 3dsmax5's default renderer sees a 6-10% performance increase, and Lightwave 7.5's see's around a 10% performance increase.

 

It also looks as if XSI and Maya both benefit from hyperthreading in a Dual Xeon system. But exact % increases are not yet known. It looks from intial reports that Mental Ray (being a bucket based rendering system) is getting around a 15-20% increase.

 

All numbers are realitively massive in scale, considering the current scaling of high end cpu's.

 

As for highend makers..boxxtech at the top for sure .

[Richie]

Hello

 

Greg, I don't want to make a big diskussion on this, I just say what should be the best for the customer (well, for the most of them).

 

How many jobs you ever done, that needs more than 4 GByte RAM ?

If it's not a rocket engine with trillions of parts, you will never need more than a couple of GBytes/CPU.

 

And for this couple of % you will also not need HT. As you mentioned before, for optimal use of HT, you will need a bigger OS too.

The people better should work on their skills, instead to buy faster and faster systems, in hope innsufficient skills will be better hiden by a faster system.

 

If a customer have all this additional money, he will not discuss about % or a couple of thousands of dollars (also not about reg. or not reg. memory).

 

I'm not a % hunter... (who is faster/fastest on this world)...

 

Don't you think so?

 

Richie

[Greg Hess]

How many jobs you ever done, that needs more than 4 GByte RAM ?

 

That type of statement tends to showcase that your company must not deal with many video and/or cg clients.

 

And for this couple of % you will also not need HT. As you mentioned before, for optimal use of HT, you will need a bigger OS too.

 

I completely and utterly disagree. I can't believe that an OEM or distributor would make such a statement. Here you guys are selling systems to people, who want a faster computer, when just enabling hyperthreading gives a larger increase in performance then going from 2.6 Xeon to a 2.8 Xeon.

 

A 200 megahertz per cpu increase in speed is LOWER in performance then enabling hyperthreading on the same system. Windows XP is not a "bigger" OS then windows 2000. Nor is it more expensive.

 

Don't you think so?

 

No I don't. I find your logic flawed. Actually it looks like its left the building, so I won't be responding to any more of your posts. Have a good one.

 

[ March 24, 2003, 07:48 AM: Message edited by: Greg Hess ]

[Richie]

Hello

 

>That type of statement tends to showcase that your company must not deal with many video and/or cg clients...

 

Well, Austria is not as big as the USA.

And yes, we have enought clients, they must handling much video in Real-Time (SDTV).

 

> Here you guys are selling systems to people, who want a faster computer...

 

Almost non of our clients wants more speed, but better workflow, better stabillity and better support for our products (solutions).

In the last couple of years we selled more than 500 High-End systems, and not one is comed back because of some trouble.

We can offer you a system that's capable of 8 Channell Uncompressed Video Playback (incl. Alpha Channel for 7 Video Layer) with RealTime manipulation of each Channel.

Also for Video Painting (or Broadcast CG even less than 2 GBytes) you don't really need more than 4 GBytes of RAM.

 

And since we are in CG Architects Forum, you can be shure, that only a few people here maybe ever needed more than 4 GByte of Memory for a project.

 

btw. Can you remember what Ernest is looking for?

I guess he is not searching a system that's memory will costs more than 5000,-USD !?

 

Richie

[Richie]

Hello

 

Again, I'm not against HT, but the people making much more noise, than it's worth of it.

Intel maked a mistake, now they repair this mistake and everybody should say Horray?

This is wrong. Especially if you look how Intel is handling his customers.

Changing the socket every year?

This is everything but not serious.

 

And it's not seriuos to sell the fastest system without notice, that he can drop it next year in the basket(Our clients changing their systems in 14/16 Months intervalls).

 

Richie