I need a new system

[Brian Cassil]

I'm going to be setting up shop for myself very soon and therefore need a new computer. I plan on be able to use my current home system for some image editing and such while rendering. I'm going to be working on XP using Viz primarily, with FinalRender or Vray. I am working with a budget of $2000 or less. I'm not very hardware savvy so I'm considering having a good friend put it together for me (more on that later). I've read lots of great info on the forums here but I still have a few questions.

 

It seems that AMD has been the price/performance king but with recent price drops from intel maybe that's not the case anymore. Also I'm aware of the new intel chipset coming out in a month or so with the 800 FSB. Is that going to be way out of my price range?

 

Dual processors? It doesn't seem out of the question these days but I see debate over whether there is any performance enhancement to speak of.

 

Any recommendations on a mobo, power supply, ram, video card etc. will be appreciated as well.

 

It seems there is a lot of fuss over cooling lately with aluminum cases, custom heatsinks, fancy fans, and even some kind of goop, all inteded to keep temperatures low. Advice on that will be nice too.

 

Lastly, my friend has some good experience building desktops, but not with systems dedicated for 3D graphics and rendering. Is there anything he should know in configuring this computer that would be different from standard desktops?

 

I realize this is lot to be asking in one post and I thank you all for taking the time to read this.

[bigcahunak]

Hi Brian.

With VIZ and VRay as the main programs I'd go with dual (I'd go with a dual anyway...).

So far I'm very happy with AMDs dual, but with Intel prics their new technology (7505 chipset) I think dual xeon (2.66 or 2.8) would be the best choice.

The main quaestion is: What do you plan to get in that amout you spesified? any monitor(S) included in that? DVD? DVDR? CDR? Any other important components you planned to get for that money?

[Brian Cassil]

Yeah, I guess I should have specified all the peripherals (sp?).

 

No monitors, CD writer, not DVD writer, mmmm... thats about it.

 

Hey big K, aren't dual xeon's way out of my price range?

[bigcahunak]

I dont think so.

I believe you are in, but without too much memory.

Going to check... I'll be back

[bigcahunak]

OK, Brian...

Here is what I found (all from newegg):

• Supermicro E7505 Motherboard for Dual Xeon Processors, Model# X5DAL-G -Retail - $369.00
• 2x Intel® Xeon™ DP 2.80 GHz 512 KB-cache 533 MHz FSB3 Year MFR Warranty, Socket: 604 Pin (FC-BGA) (each $454.00 ) - total of $908.00
• 2Gb of Crucial Micron 512MB 64x64 PC2100 DDR RAM, 184-Pin, CL=2.5-Unbuffered 2.5V, 6-Layers (each stick goes for $65.00 ) - total of 4 sticks $260.00

So far you got a retail dual Xeon 2.8gb, supermicro mobo (with on board gigabit LAN)and 2gb of crucial ram for a total of $ 1,537.00 .

I believr that the extra $463 would do for CDR, sound, a nice case and shipping of coarse.

But, ait for Greg to confirm my findings...

Of coase I forgot to add the video card of your choice... but there you can always downgrade to a 2.66 xeon CPU (if you go over budget) which will decrease price at about $300 ($308 for the 2.66gb Xeon), which is about the price of a good vid card.

Good luck, and enjoy the new toy (whatever it is).

 

[ April 26, 2003, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: bigcahunak ]

[kainoa]

Everything but the case:

 

http://secure.newegg.com/app/WishR.asp?ID=292081

 

$1481.50 (no s/h)

 

2Gb of Crucial Micron 512MB 64x64 PC2100 DDR RAM, 184-Pin, CL=2.5-Unbuffered 2.5V, 6-Layers (each stick goes for $65.00 ) - total of 4 sticks $260.00

Dual mobos need ECC registered ram. Also, dont forget about a monster harddrive.

[bigcahunak]

I thought the 7505 works without ECC... maybe I'm wrong, but thats small amounts difference anyway.

You'r right about the HDD though :gebigeek:

[kainoa]

Originally posted by kainoa:

Everything but the case:

 

http://secure.newegg.com/app/WishR.asp?ID=292081

 

$1481.50 (no s/h)

 

or $1065.50 if you swap the Sony DVD-R burner for a LiteOn 52x CD-RW and a 120GB HD instead of the 200GB.

 

Geez, you could almost afford two of these bad boys. Mmmmm....dual dual workstations...mmmm .

 

I thought the 7505 works without ECC...

My bad, your right Itzik. The 7505 supports both types. It's only mandatory on the dual AMD mobos. You gotta admit, $1065.50 for a dual athy sounds pretty damn good. Kinda makes me wanna upgrade .

[kainoa]

It seems there is a lot of fuss over cooling lately ...

This is what I use:

• Thermalright SK-7 Heat Sink
• Enermax Adjustable 80mm Fan
• Artic Silver

My PC (Athlon XP 1800) has but a slight whisper and never gets above 48 deg (and im in honolulu). For heat sinks, Thermalright is king (not to be confused with Thermaltake). Just be sure to get the ones that support 80mm fans, anything smaller makes too much noise and pushes too little air. Panaflow fans are also pretty good and quite, but $. However, if you go with Intel procs the HSF that comes with it should be work fine.

[bigcahunak]

kainoa, I few remarks to your newegg setup:

A general one: I like the AMD and have no probs with it. However, the Operaton is out and the older MP chips, and MPX chipset is an old configuration, while the new Xeon rocks...

And for the more detailed ones:

No reason for an ATA133 drive with an ATA100 mobo. I'd get a good WD anyway instead of the maxtor.

You only priced 1gb on ram... (enough though)

I think that if Iwas in the market for a dual AMD, I'd get the chaintech mobo with the raid, LAN, sound...

[Greg Hess]

Brian,

 

See what I mean?

 

I'd push for a Dual Xeon purchase with a Budget of 2,000 USD.

 

As long as your not purchasing monitors/scanners/printers/mocap rigs/top end professional video/top end graphics card...

 

You should be able to do it.

 

I would follow Bigachunk's example, but with the following changes.

 

I'd downgrade the Xeon's to 2.6's. (You can always smack larger procs in their later).

 

I'd move to 2x 1 gigabyte sticks. (The board only has 2 extra dimm slots (4 total /edit), so you'll want to leave room for expansion). If you'll never need more then 2 gb of ram, stick with the 4x512 config.

 

The nice thing about that particular supermicro board, is it allows for unbuffered DDR, greatly reducing the price.

 

By going with 2.6 or 2.66 Xeon's (make sure their socket 604, and 533 FSB), you'll save enough cash to possibly pick up a 750XL quadro, or maybe even a 900XL quadro (depending on what other parts you already have available).

 

Remember with Xeon's you need a powerful power supply (min 400, recommended 440+).

 

Check out the chieftech full towers as possible case solutions.

 

WD800JB's or any JB WD drive as storage medium.

 

DRU500AX sony DVDRW burners for data storage.

 

Pioneer 120S drives for reading the sony DVDRW's.

 

That should cover pretty much all the bases.

 

Hope that helps.

 

[ April 28, 2003, 05:30 AM: Message edited by: Greg Hess ]

[garethace]

I'd move to 2x 1 gigabyte sticks. (The board only has 2 extra dimm slots (4 total /edit), so you'll want to leave room for expansion). If you'll never need more then 2 gb of ram, stick with the 4x512 config.

Wouldn't he have to pony up for a copy of Windows Server Edition then Greg, to support a 3GB memory maximum in Server edition?

[Greg Hess]

gare,

 

Most likely. Its always nice to have the option to expand though.

 

I remember when I thought 512 was enough.

[garethace]

I still can be enough with a very fast striped disk array.

 

I usually find it easier to ask the boss for a couple of more drives in a new system than more memory.

 

Crazy, but the boss here still thinks 256 is a luxury!!!!

[Brian Cassil]

WOW! It never ceases to amaze me how certain people on this forum pitch in to help each other! Thanks so much for everyones input. It has been a huge help.

 

here is my complete system as priced on newegg. I've decided to go with the dual athlon setup because I can get the rendering plugin right away with the money I save. I may get the dual intel with the 800 FSB in a month or so because I may have someone else start working with me by then. This system includes everything I will need including dual monitors and even speakers mouse and keyboard. It may cost an arm and a leg to ship all this so I might buy some of the peripherals locally.

 

Just a couple more questions regarding what I've put together here. I can't tell if I can run the USB 2.0 from the mother board to the front of the case or not. Also, does the radeon 9500 support dual CRT Monitors? Any other comments are still welcome of course and thanks again for everyones help!

 

(Edit) I just noticed that no one has suggested getting the MP2600 processors. It would cost me about $100 more to get those, which I would be willing to do if there was a good performance boost.

 

[ April 29, 2003, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: Brian Cassil ]

[Brian Cassil]

Any last comments or help on the system I've put togehter here?

[Greg Hess]

I may get the dual intel with the 800 FSB in a month or so because I may have someone else start working with me by then.

 

There is no dual 800 FSB. Xeon's have a 533 FSB, and use PC2100 Registered/unbuffered (dependin on board) DDR in a Dual Channel Configuration.

 

I can't tell if I can run the USB 2.0 from the mother board to the front of the case or not.

 

The board doesn't have onboard USB. It uses a USB 2.0 card. So no.

 

Also, does the radeon 9500 support dual CRT Monitors?

 

The radeon is the weakest point in your setup. Replace it with a Ti 4600, ti 4800, or quadro 750XL or 900XL if you want trouble free performance.

 

Radeon's are gaming cards. The list of problems with them and 3d apps is forum's long.

 

2600+ MP

 

If you have the cash, its always better to go faster. Though it might be more worthwhile to scrap the 9500 pro, take the 200 bucks, and get a 750XL or 900XL (cheaper from a site OTHER then newegg).

[garethace]

The dual AMD requires it. It would work with 2 sticks unbuffered, but not 4 of them like you ordered.

Second that, I have heard that mentioned repeatedly about dual AMD platform too.

 

Radeon's are gaming cards. The list of problems with them and 3d apps is forum's long.

Geez! Fancy that! I knew nVidia's drivers were better, but i never knew Ati cards were that cronic. Strange to think, with Ati now using the FireGL name and all now - FireGL used to be legendary for the performance/stability of the old IBM chip cards.

 

Ati has recently been sucessful because of its merger/take-over of ArtX, the 80 person LA start-up company of ex-SGI people who designed the chip for the Ninetendo Gamecube. I believe Ati are now making a serious bid for the xbox contract too, and have will enter the chipset business soon with an Intel Pentium 4 chipset using integrated DX9 graphics acceleration.

[Brian Cassil]

Okay guys, I'll tweak that order and post my changed wish list shortly.

 

Hey Greg, I think I'll take your advice and stay with the MP2400 loose the radeon 9500 and get the 750 XL. But what would the "other" site be that I could get the 750 from for less?

 

(Edit) something I forgot, does anyone know of a motherboard that I can get to run usb 2.0 to the front of the case?

[Greg Hess]

Strange to think, with Ati now using the FireGL name and all now - FireGL used to be legendary for the performance/stability of the old IBM chip cards.

 

Gare,

 

I was talking about the radeon series, not the firegl. Although the X1 and Z1 series have some issues with some applications. The FireGL 8800 is a nice decent card for the money however. But of course there are newer and better solutions.

 

Usually when it comes to discreet products, the nvidia cards tend to fit the bill a bit better. The biggest problems with the Radeon's tend to manifest themselves in XSI and Maya, with a few issues here and there in Max. In XSI a Geforce4 MX (Nv17 chipset) is actually faster then a radeon 9800 pro in a wide variety of scenes. Its pretty sad.

 

ATI still has alot to learn when it comes to drivers. But then of course, they're mainly concentrating on games for the Radeons...not applications.

 

Kudos on noticing the memory biga, I totally missed that. Definitely have to go with registered if you are using MORE then 2 dimms. If 2 dimms is all your ever going ot use, then you can get by with unbuffered.

 

Use www.pricewatch.com to get some ideas of other sites for the 750XL and 900XL. Use www.resellerratings.com to verify the store is a valid site.

[garethace]

In XSI a Geforce4 MX (Nv17 chipset) is actually faster then a radeon 9800 pro in a wide variety of scenes. Its pretty sad.

Quite. But an Ati 8MB Rage VR AGP card is better in MicroStation than my Quadro 2 Pro card!!! I hear Cinema 4D and Allplan can also have a few quirks. But the recently published page of nVidia certified workstation drivers for each application was a gods send - even for MicroStation.

 

I was after persauding a CAD user to shell out for the Quadro card, explaining how it would have much better driver support. You can imagine my embarassment when MicroStation (really poor) Opengl acceleration was better in his existing Piii 500mhz with a bog standard 16mb Ati rage! orangemad

 

My experience is mostly is VIZ or FormZ with nVidia cards, for more texturing and rendering has been much better on the other hand. :winkgrin:

 

[ April 30, 2003, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: garethace ]

[bigcahunak]

BRIAN,

I just checked your newegg list.

Stop the order and get the ECC reged sticks.

The dual AMD requires it. It would work with 2 sticks unbuffered, but not 4 of them like you ordered.

You even got yoursef 2 monitors and still under $2k, very nice.

Hope its still in time for the RAM...

[schmoron13]

in response to the Radeon question, I have an 8500 (128mb) and I run two 17" Dell CRT monitors (sony trinitrons), so I assume that the 9500 can do the same.

[Greg Hess]

But an Ati 8MB Rage VR AGP card is better in MicroStation than my Quadro 2 Pro card!!! I hear Cinema 4D and Allplan can also have a few quirks.

 

Thats the biggest problem in this industry. Hardware and the applications its used on. There is such a huge combination of possible software/hardware choices that its almost impossible to keep a tab on what works with what. Its pretty much a full time job.

 

This is why I try to ask the following questions when someone is building a system.

 

1) What are you doing with the machine? Games? Applications? What type of applications?

 

2) Whats the budget for the system?

 

At least this way you can get some sort of idea of what components may/may not work in the system.

 

The biggest problem I've encountered over the years is piracy. It is so unbelievably frustrating to spend an hour or so helping someone, to find out their software problems are due to license cracks, or incomplete "borrowed" software packages.

 

Makes you want to punch someone in the face.

 

What I find most interesting are your experiences with direct CAD software. I tend to vary my realm of expertise within Maya, XSI, Lw, and Max...with most of my experience directly relating to discreet software packages.

 

I've had very little experience with CAD itself, and thus am quite interested in all you have to say .

[garethace]

in response to the Radeon question, I have an 8500 (128mb) and I run two 17" Dell CRT monitors (sony trinitrons), so I assume that the 9500 can do the same.

http://mirror.ati.com/products/builtworkstation.html

 

The 9500 isn't anywhere on that list of certified workstation boards?

 

9500 is a gaming card at gaming card prices. The firegl range on the other hand, has better drivers, better support for twin monitors, but will always be more expensive than the gaming card types.

 

Having said that, depending on what kind of software you are running, one might just get away with a temporary ati gamer card until upgrading later on. Not always the best advice for certain apps i would imagine though.