Dell Precision 650 workstation

[JM Ataide]

This is my first post, so I would like to say hello to everybody.

 

Well. I'm thinking about to buy a Dell Precision 650 workstation with the following configuration:

- Dual Xeons 2.4 Ghz

- 1Gb DDR 266 SDRAM

- nVidia Quadro 4 900 XGL graphics card

- 120Gb EIDE 7200 rpm HD

 

I need a fast and powerful PC, and this is the best choice that I've found in my country (Spain).

I know, there are other options, like dual Athlon MP based workstations. But friends, there are not Athlon MP processors in Spain!!! And of course, I can't find Athlon MP based workstations here. They must think that we only dance flamenco and go to the beach.

 

So, could you help me to take a right decission, please? The Dell workstation is very expensive for me, and I'm worried about if I'm going to do the right choice.

 

Thanks.

[David Knourek]

If your ordering from the US anyway, I would try to get ahold of either http://www.boxxtech.com or http://www.alienware.com rather than going with something like Dell. You'll most likely get WAY better serveice esp from Boxx than anyone else. Also Dual Xeons are going to be expensive just about everywhere ;D

 

Just a thought,

 

-dave

[garethace]

I think David has given you two excellent links there JM, but i was reading a thread some time ago at aceshardware about a highend software developer who needed a good dual rig and eventually decided on this place:

 

http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=M&Category_Code=W

 

This one has Dual AMD Processors and looks very suitable, in my opinion:

 

http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=M&Product_Code=90107&Category_Code=CAD-WS

 

But you really should explain exactly which softwares you will be using on this machine eventually.

 

You should try posting your specs over here i think:

 

www.aceshardware.com/forum

 

and see if anyone can give you advice. Because the guys on that forum really know almost everything there is to know about Athlon MP workstation buying decisions. You should include the rough breakdown of prices Dell are charging you for the various components too. That would be a real help to the Aceshardware forum guys to assist you in.

 

[ April 10, 2003, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: garethace ]

[Greg Hess]

I second the recommendation on boxxtech.

 

I've got around 30 or so clients using their machines (some with 30+ systems) and all have been extremely happy with little or no complaints.

 

I just wish my university used them.

 

monarchcomputers is also good for having a system preassembled for you, but I don't believe they provide direct end user support. If they do, please correct me garethace.

[garethace]

Yeah, i think you could be correct there Greg. However, JM seems willing enough to take a chance on an AMD MP system. I know this can be a very stable platform indeed for servers or for workstations. Here is a good link:

 

http://www.anandtech.com/IT/showdoc.html?i=1695

 

However, one person i spoke to had to return a motherboard to monarch, and had no problems dealing with them at all. A lot of the people i know, want to buy systems as barebones systems. Mostly, already having purchased all operating systems and software before hand.

 

I realise what JM might be looking for for cg work, is something safer, reliable and extremely well supported. Monarch on the other hand, are used by people i know who 'simply would not require support' other than for returned parts.

 

Monarch sell server chassis too, and server power supplies which can be hard to sourse in themselves. Alot of servers out there now are self-builds rather than branded jobs i believe. The Athlon MP platform is great for this application, as detailed by the anandtech article i think.

 

One link i liked alot from the Anandtech article was this one:

 

http://www.dualathlonservers.com/multiview/towers.htm

 

Because not many vendors have been using Athlon MP for servers or workstations they are harder to find. But i think the Anandtech review of the server platforms gives a very good indication of what to expect in terms of build quality and so on.

 

This manufacturer Polywell does a nice system without the video capture stuff for $1,299. A non-scsi version that is.

http://www.polywell.com/us/workstations/poly890s.asp

 

I notice you have a little small form factor pc on the desk, with the Boxx and coolermaster systems Greg!

 

www.3dluvr.com/crossbow/incoming/setup.jpg

 

I also noticed the kvm switch, what brand is that one again? Pray tell, what exactly the small form factor pc actually does, just for rooting through cdroms for stuff etc? Altogether a very well organised work enviroment i think.

 

[ April 10, 2003, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: garethace ]

[Greg Hess]

I also noticed the kvm switch, what brand is that one again? Pray tell, what exactly the small form factor pc actually does, just for rooting through cdroms for stuff etc? Altogether a very well organised work enviroment i think.

 

Hey garethace,

 

The KVM switch is a Belkin SOHO 2 port. I run the dual athlon and the shuttle XPC system off of it. (I didn't have the boxxtech system for review until recently, so I didn't deam it necessary to have a larger then 2 port switch).

 

I'm actually looking for a DVI-I switch box now .

 

The small form factor pc is a Shuttle XPC SS51B.

 

I actually use it as my primary workstation.

 

Its a 2.66B Pentium IV running 2x 512 Corsair XMS PC3200 Dimms, with a WD800JB, and a Geforce4 Ti 4400. I tend to use it primarily for modeling, and then output the renders to the other two machines through Vray's Distributed rendering system. (7 total buckets)

 

Why do I use the little tiny computer? Well for one its small, quiet, and pretty dang snappy.

 

Its also portable, so I can move it to a clients location if need be without too much trouble.

 

Sure its no where near as fast in either viewport/rendering as the dual xeon, but I like it just the same.

 

If Boxx lets me keep the xeon...I'd probably move to that though .

[garethace]

I am the same, a 2 system old OmniCube Belkin switch with 2 NT boxes. I just use my AMD box to send render jobs to, while i am working in VIZ Release 2. My flirtation with computer graphics more or less ended around summer 2000. Since then i have been working more in an IT support and training CAD 2D/3D capacity for architects. I felt the whole VIZ rendering thing scared them alot, and most architects i know are satisfied with a 'filled hidden line' rendering from MicroStation!!! :ngelaugh:

 

I haven't bothered using W2k much on my modelling systems, since i would need a new switch, preferably a DVI one as you describe. They really should make those things bios upgradable, so whenever Microsoft releases a new OS, you are not caught for a brand new switch.

 

BTW, it may be worth trying out the new PS/2 optical 5 button mice coming out on the market. As they use MUCH less cpu than the USB mouse i can see in the pic. USB 1.0 mouse devices absolutely suck up cpu power.

 

Just got this link for monarch:

 

http://www.resellerratings.com/seller2079.html

[Greg Hess]

USB 1.0 mouse devices absolutely suck up cpu power.

 

I convert it to ps/2 and plug it in there .

[garethace]

It is time intensive having to keep up with all this hardware stuff. Shortly, i hope to back off of that a little, and get back into a bit of architectural design and even a bit of my own real cgwork. This site has been a great help though. When i used read every issue of CG World magazine back in 1999/00 people like Intergraph and SGI were still selling NT 4 workstations. WildCAT was owned by Intergraph. Now its owned by 3Dlabs, which in turn was bought over by Creative!!!! What i find really great about cgarchitect, is many of the featured sites linked here, show cgartists work from the mid to late nineties right up to the present day.

 

It is very easy to trace the rise in standards during that time, mainly down to increased memory, cpu power, and graphics visualisation power (gpus). Back in 1999, despite the Geforce 1 product, decent OpenGL cards were not common place, and i even remember running VIZ R2 using Heidi drivers for a year before getting a TNT2 Ultra, which could use OpenGL but was buggy at the very best. It couldn't even open anything like Lightscape however. Young people nowadays don't understand what it feels like to have your 3d app viewport graphics cause a system to crash!!! :angerazz:

 

[ April 10, 2003, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: garethace ]

[JM Ataide]

Thanks to all.

Maybe I didn't explain what I wanted to say ('cause my poor english). I know these companies, but I live in Spain, and I can buy books, music, DVDs to U.S. I'm talking about to buy a $3000-$4000 computer to the other side of the ocean.

If I have troubles with the Dell workstation, a Dell technician will come to my studio at the next day.

I asked your opinions about Dell workstations, if anyone have one, etc.

And one more thing: BOXX workstations (dual Athlon MP) are more expensives than Dell ones (dual Xeon).

 

To buy a computer to USA is not an option for me, because tech service. I could not wait if I have to send a defectuos component to USA and receive another one.

 

And again, thanks to all, and excuse me for my english.

[garethace]

I know quite a bit about Dell workstations, given the fact i have worked there at one time for almost a year. I have also used there products for cg work in practice. Generally, as i say i have more than enough experience and knowledge with hardware to do building a system myself. But Dell is always a nice option, you are less likely to get burnt buying wrong parts etc., etc.

 

You would have to tell us exactly the applications you ultimately hope to run on your new Dell Workstation. It might also be helpful to outline what you consider the most important part of a computer.

 

For example, if you are doing alot of Video capture - large fast hard drives.

 

Or for example, if you like opening alot of applications together - a graphics board that supports two monitors easily.

 

What kind of display do you hope to get? Personally, i would sourse out my own display under a separate warantee instead of getting the display from Dell. Dell do some excellent quality CRT monitors, but i am particular about which flat screen i tend to use - colours and tone can appear far too dark on alot of flatscreens currently doing the rounds.

[JM Ataide]

Garethaze, as I said in my first post, this is the configuration that I'm thinking to buy (and that I can pay):

 

- Dual Xeons 2.4 Ghz

- 1Gb DDR 266 SDRAM

- nVidia Quadro 4 900 XGL graphics card

- 120Gb EIDE 7200 rpm HD

 

My mainly works are architectural visualizations, and my tools are 3ds max 5, Brazil r/s, Lightscape and Photoshop. I need dualview support, and I think that I've done the right choice on the graphics card. Also I'm thinking to add a Dell 19' CRT (Trinitron tube) monitor to the Dell workstation configuration. I have a Sony 17' CRT monitor. I would leave this one as 2nd monitor for the tool windows, etc. I hate flat panel displays (where are the real colors?!).

 

We're talking about 4000 ($/euros). So, is this a good buy? I'm freelance, and $4000 is money for me, but I can't wait hours for a render, or several minutes for a test everytime I change a parameter.

 

This is my situation, and this is why it's hard for me to take a decission.

 

Could you help me with your opinions?

 

Thanks a lot.

[garethace]

Alot would say 266 DDR is slow for a new system today, but the dual Xeon platforms tend to fall behind in speed in favour of more stability, driver wise and every wise. 266 DDR is currently what is available for the Athlon MP Platform, and is currently considered too slow for todays MHZ cpu speeds.

 

I think you should definetly look at faster RAM specs, on single processor machines. Go for faster RAM and more of it. Go for 2GB now instead of 1GB DDR 333, is my recommendation. I will check around a few sites, and see what the verdict is though first. I will post again tomorrow hopefully.

 

Yeah, i definetly think DDR266 is Slowwwwwwwwww for graphics work. Better off even going with faster 32 bit 1066 RDRAM and a single cpu, than ddr 266. Fine for a server but not a graphics cg workstation IMO.

 

[ April 16, 2003, 09:06 AM: Message edited by: garethace ]

[Greg Hess]

Hey garethace,

 

I don't think he means just PC2100 (266) DDR. Since its an E7505 chipset (only DDR Xeon chipset available) it would be running at PC2100 in a Dual Channel configuration, for around 4.2 gb/sec bandwidth, which is only about 100 megs/sec less then PC800 (PC800 Rambus is 4.2-4.3 gb/sec, with a very high latency) , and a great deal cheaper with much lower latency.

 

Both the E7505 (Dual Xeon), E7205 (Single P4 Workstation) use Dual Channel PC2100 for a far superior solution in rambus.

 

The upcoming I865PE and I875 (Canterwood) use PC3200 Dual Channel DDR to provide a Whopping 6.4 Gb/sec bandwidth to match the 6.4 gb/sec bandwidth that the FSB (800 megahertz) will be outputting.

 

Of course both i865PE and i875 are single CPU only.

 

Note: All listed Bandwidth #'s are based on theoretical maximums.

[Christian Miranda]

JM,

 

Here go my opinion.

 

I´m an architectural illustrator/animator and my software set up is very similar to yours.

 

I would say go for a dual processor machine if you can afford it. My fastest machine is an athlon XP 2100 with a 1Gig of DDR 266. It´s a very snappy system but when it comes to rendering high resolution GI images, it´s not that fast.

 

Man, I can believe that you can find a dual athlon in Spain, I live in Brazil and there are quite a few vendors who have dual Athlons here. If you can´t get a dual Athlon (which is not as fast as the dual Xeon specially in Brazil R/S and Vray, but is way cheaper) go and get that dual Xeon. You will have a machine which is faster than a dual Athlon 2600 in Brazil, because it Brazil uses Hyperthreading and launches four buckets at one in Brazil, yes that´s true. You will have an equivalent to 2,5 processors ( a 20%-25% increase in performance).

 

Good luck.

 

Christian Miranda | 3d artist.

[Sawyer]

Jeeze guys I am an idiot. :angesigh: I have this exact machine (dell precision 650) I love it to death but I don't know what you guys are talking about. I bought what I thought was going to be the meanest/fastest thing I could get my hands on. I use max and I have the nVidia Quadro 4 900 XGL graphics card but everything runs just as it was out of the box. I have a sneeking feeling that I may need to tweak the machine a bit.

 

So to answer your question JM I have a Dell. I love it. One thing: ever 78 (+-) hours of continuous operation it freezes. Only complaint.

[Greg Hess]

Hey Sawyer,

 

Dell disables Hyperthreading on all shipping Dual Xeon systems. If your running Windows XP, you can go into the bios of the Dell system (Press F2, Del, or Tab when the system is first turned on) and turn hyperthreading on. It should make a noticable difference in rendering times, especially if your using a 3rd party renderer.

 

Also remember if your using Max4, to use the 4.26 patch, or if its max5 to enable SSE in the check box of the render dialog.

 

If your running Windows 2000, you'll have to move over to Windows XP to gain full support of the hyperthreading capabilities of your CPU's.

 

A freeze every 70 hours isn't really acceptable if your trying to do extended renders. Of course this varies from individual to individual. Do you have the latest chipset/OS patches for your system? Is ECC enabled for the ram? If its yes to both of those, it could be a power supply flucuation, or processor heat issue.

 

I just recently troubleshooted a Dell system that's Xeon temps were at 55C IDLE, and were actually throttling down cause they would reach 70C+ under load. (These were Dual 1.8's). You can check the temps with motherboard monitor (do google search) or in your bios. If your temps are above 50C at idle, you may need to investigate upgrading the cooling system of the computer if you want stability extending past a full week.

[garethace]

Granite Bay dual channel DDR seems to have conquered the desktop, but one of its main advantages at the moment over 32 bit Rambus, seems to be the availability and low price of high density 1GB fast timed DDR 2700 and DDR 3200 Cas 2 memory modules. I still believe DDR 2100 is far too slow to get maximum performance from a Granite Bay chipset. To be honest with you Greg, i think the single cpu 3.06 HT chip is well worth considering, with 2GB of dual channel DDR memory.

 

http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=50000327

 

But note the memory used:

 

We used Corsair's XMS 3200 CAS 2 DDR (DDR400) for maximum overclocking possibilities and stability. We will discuss DDR400 in more detail in the next review. In this review, the XMS32000 were running at 166 MHz DDR (333 MHz) and configured in all systems to work with a CAS latency of 2.

It you look here Greg, the P4 2.8 GHz i850E - PC1066 Rambus solution from INtel/Dell is by far and away the faster performer STILL on desktop for rendering work.

 

http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=50000310

 

There is a system there with DDR333, P4 2.8 GHz i845G - DDR333, which looks okay.

 

If you look at this article, DDR 400 CAS 2 is being used to compete with 32-bit PC1066 RDRAM memory:

 

http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=50000337

 

And in particular this page, i think SPEC ViewPerf: proe-01 is a very good benchmark indeed.

 

http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=50000343

 

Motherboard Score

 

GNB - Dual DDR266 Fast 17.08

850E - 32 bit RDRAM 16.83

GNB - Dual DDR266 16.7

i845PE - DDR333 Fast 16.55

i845PE - DDR333 16.4

 

If your workstation is your main tool for designing plants and other complex structures, it is clear that you must invest in the speediest DRAM available. Compared to DDR333, RDRAM is no less than 25 to 31% faster! However, i850E 32 bit RDRAM boards are not an option for this category of software as 1 GB RDRAM are not available. If 2 GB is enough, you can opt for a i850E 16 bit board otherwise a i860 board or a Granite Bay board might be worth considering.

 

Scientific simulation runs the fastest on the i850E, but the difference with Granite Bay is negligible. Note how the E7205 chipset (GNB) needs again the 2-2-2 DDRs to shine.

 

Motherboard Score

 

850E - 32 bit RDRAM 18.83

GNB - Dual DDR266 Fast 17.83

GNB - Dual DDR266 16.42

i845PE - DDR333 Fast 15.17

i845PE - DDR333 14.96

 

Again, the i850E board is the winner. But again we have to say to note that the slots of the P4T533 (1 GB max) are not enough for Pro-E. Indeed Pro-E professionals would like 4 GB and more. With UGS (CAD), all systems achieved a 17.5-17.53 score, so in this case the E7205 board is the most interesting option.

 

Conclusion:

 

The ASUS P4T533, the only i850E board with support for 32 bit RDRAM, is still overall the fastest chipset for the desktop user. 32 bit RDRAM is a little faster than two channels of 16 bit RDRAM and in some quite a few workstation applications it significantly outperformed the i845PE and DDR333.

 

But at the same time, it seems to be harder to produce high capacity RDRAM chipsets than DDR SDRAM chips. 512 MB 32 bit RDRAMs are pretty expensive, 1 GB RIMMS are unavailable. This means that with a ASUS P4T533 board, which has only two RIMM slots, you are limited to 1 GB of memory. This is enough for desktop use, but might be insufficient for a lot of workstation users.

 

[ April 16, 2003, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: garethace ]

[garethace]

The upcoming I865PE and I875 (Canterwood) use PC3200 Dual Channel DDR to provide a Whopping 6.4 Gb/sec bandwidth to match the 6.4 gb/sec bandwidth that the FSB (800 megahertz) will be outputting.

 

Of course both i865PE and i875 are single CPU only.

First Tests: Intel's 3-GHz P4 and 875P Chip Set

 

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,110254,00.asp

 

What's the bottom-line buying advice? Power desktop PC users who favor Intel-based machines may want to sit tight until June. That's the expected debut date for "Prescott," the revamped P4 chip for which the 875P chipset paves the way. Note, too, that you can upgrade PCs with the 875P chip set to Prescott later if you need to buy an Intel system now.

 

Prescott, likely to launch at a 3.4-GHz clock speed, will double the P4's Level 2 cache and improve the hyperthreading technology. And, Prescott machines should more fully take advantage of the higher-bandwidth memory and 800-MHz bus that the 875P chip set enables, Krewell says.

New Products from Intel: Intel Pentium 4 3.0GHz with 800MHz Quad Pumped Bus, Intel 875 and Intel 865 Chipsets Review

 

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/print/p4-800.html

 

[ April 16, 2003, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: garethace ]

[garethace]

What is the buying advice currently for high end Intel Workstations?

 

My final recommendation would have to be this system, Dell Precision Workstation 360 Small Mini Tower - NEW

http://www.euro.dell.com/countries/ie/enu/pad/products/model_precn_3_precn_360.htm

 

Because it is the newest of all Dell's range currently. The graphics card is fixed to a Graphics Card ATI Fire GL X1 Dual-Monitor Capable (128MB DVI/VGA) Graphics Card. You can pick up 2GB of dual channel PC333 DDR Memory for only €720. The processor is Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor 3.0GHz with 512k Cache / 800MHz Front Side Bus. Chipsets: Intel® 875P chipset.

 

 

Other than that you can just wait until June for the Prescott CPU to take advantage of Canterwood chipset. In my own mind, DDR 266Mhz seems to be slow for a workstation that costs around $4000 with all the frills. Even with the dual channel DDR memory and Hyperthreading.

 

If your workstation is your main tool for designing plants and other complex structures, it is clear that you must invest in the speediest DRAM available.

Plus this system is pin compatible and upgradeable to the new Prescott 3.4GHZ cpus coming out in June. (Granted a single cpu system) But this cpu will have improved Hyperthreading and up to 1MB of L2 cache!!!!!! That will be nice for cg work i think!

 

[ April 16, 2003, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: garethace ]

[Greg Hess]

Hey Garethace,

 

Don't need to post so many urls, I've already read them all .

 

The biggest advantage to going with an E7505 chipset is your not just getting DC-DDR (which is cheaper for an equivilant amount of bandwidth) but your also moving to a 533 FSB, AND getting things like serial-ata, AGP 8x, firewire, USB 2.0. and gigabit ethernet.

 

Remember that performance isn't always the greatest deciding factor. The new Xeon's aren't just newer, but also have a larger upgrade route (Socket 604 instead of 603 like the Rambus boxes), but also feature a newer chipset, with much greater support for a wide gaumt of current technology trends.

 

As for testing, my own tests have shown that the newer Xeon's are significantly faster then the older Rambus based systems.

 

http://www.3dluvr.com/content/maxbench.php

 

Note the 2nd and 3rd scores. Both at 2.8 Ghz, one is based on i850 (dell) the other (boxx) on E7505. (Dell is PC800, 800 Megahertz Dual Channel Rambus, Boxx is PC2100, 266 Dual Channel DDR)

 

Note the difference in render time.

 

The new benchmark suite is showcasing an even larger difference in performance between the two systems, (as each % difference is fully exaggerated as each scene takes an hour+ to render, these are not yet publically available though).

 

A quick note on the Aces articles.

 

1) The amount of stress put on the system is significantly higher the higher the res is. I've emailed Aceshardware before requesting they do 2048x1536 renders, but they have yet to do so. Running the same scene at 2048x1536 shows a SIGNIFICANT difference in performance, then a default 640x480, or 700x500. This is the fundamental problem with many review sites, they just aren't rendering at a high enough resolution.

 

2) 3dsmax HEAVILY stresses the memory subsystem. The amount of ram involved in a large render is absolutely phenomal, and you can actually see differences in render times just from various latency settings changed in the bios.

 

3) The other memory scores listed aren't realworld scores. I agree that on a Single P4 (Pre DC-DDR) Rambus was the king, but I no longer consider it a viable alternative to the mainstream DDR boxes, which both Intel and AMD have heavily embraced. Rambus should be considered dead for all needs and purposes as virtually all manufacturers have dropped it from their upcoming motherboard lines.

 

[ April 16, 2003, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: Greg Hess ]

[garethace]

I have edited my last post too, having finally figured out that Dell have got a new workstation model now called the Precision 360.

 

The biggest advantage to going with an

E7505 chipset is your not just getting DC-DDR (which is cheaper for an equivilant amount of bandwidth) but your also moving to a 533 FSB, AND getting things like serial-ata, AGP 8x, firewire, USB 2.0. and gigabit ethernet.

I would not be so fast to discount rambus dual channel 32-bit memory for certain applications like Max at the moment. Which is radically different to the older dual 16-bit PC800 rambus systems you are referring too. To the best of my knowledge the dual channel 32-bit rambus systems are screamers for rendering and doing cg intensive work.

 

However, i am keenly aware that your point about DC-DDR will become ever more correct as time goes on. All i am saying is why don't the Xeon boxes at least give you the option of faster DC-DDR memory? Here is one nice rambus system from Dell:

 

Dell Precision 350

 

Fastest Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor Available.

 

533 MHz System Bus, Dual Channel Rambus® PC1066 RDRAM® ECC or Non-ECC memory, Gigabit Ethernet, USB 2.0 and ISV certified Open GL graphics for application-focused performance.

 

http://www.euro.dell.com/countries/ie/enu/pad/products/model_precn_precn_350.htm

 

1GB of dual channel 32-bit PC1066 RDRAM ECC memory for €980 or non-ECC for €780. Which is in fact below 1GB of the fastest grade of DDR 3200 memory at the moment. And rougly equal to the current price from Dell for 1GB DDR 2700.

 

I take the point about rendering to high resolutions, because rendering to 800x600 is only good enough for printing at 1 inch x 1 inch, which is definitely not what clients ask for.

 

[ April 16, 2003, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: garethace ]

[Greg Hess]

The Dell system mentioned is AGP 4x. Also no ATA-133 or Serial-ATA. Firewire is available as an optional card.

 

Even if Dell directly tells you a system is upgradable, I wouldn't believe them for a second. Remember Dell uses non ATX specific components. Plug an ATX powersupply into a Dell motherboard, and it'll completely fry the entire system.

 

http://www.overclockers.com/articles729/

 

I am also extremely wary of the fact that the system has a 250 Watt power supply. Intel themselves even recommends a minimum of a 300 watt if your dealing with their new HT processors. That just puts warning flags all over the place for me.

 

Actually just checked, it might be pin upgradable to Prescott, but Prescott is 800 FSB. The board doesn't support that. It maxes out at 400/533. If Intel does decide to release 533 Prescotts, you'll take a 10-25% performance hit by remaining at a slower FSB, with a 2 gb/sec less bandwidth potential when compared to the true prescott motherboards.

 

The only boards to fully support Prescott are the upcoming i865/i875 mentioned in one of your previous posts, which of course will be supporting PC3200 DC-DDR.

 

There are no planned 800 FSB Rambus boards that I’m aware of. The main purpose of rambus equipped PC’s are for manufacturers to get rid of old stock

 

Remember that even though Rambus might give a substaintal amount of bandwidth, its got quite a major limitation in available latencies. In some cases (check your fav site, aceshardware.com for the article) it can be upwards of 10x slower when it comes to latency, which drastically effects its performance in certain situations.

 

So you really have three choices when it comes to P4’s Xeon’s right now.

 

You can…

 

1) Buy a Dual Xeon on the E7505 chipset. You’ll be using PC2100 DC-DDR, either registered or unbuffered, and you’ll have an upgrade route till Q1 2004, when Intel moves the Xeon’s to a 666 FSB. (667 actually cause they round up) Current Rambus Xeon's are obsolete as they use a different Socket (603) instead of the new Socket (604)

 

2) Buy a Single P4 based on Rambus chipset.

 

a) This limits you to…4X AGP cards.

b) A memory standard which is all but abandoned, and will not transfer over to a new system

c) Marginally better performance then a comparable i845PE or E7205 system.

d) Inability to upgrade to 800 FSB chips.

e) Be completely obsolete next month.

 

3) Buy a DDR/DC-DDR P4

 

a) Current technology integrated.

b) Slightly slower/equal to Rambus Performance

c) Generally cheaper

d) Inability to upgrade to 800 FSB chips.

e) Be completely obsolete next month.

 

 

4) Wait a single month and buy either an i865PE or i875 motherboard with an 800 FSB Intel P4. This of course uses DC-DDR which provides 6.4 gb/sec of bandwidth, far more then any current Rambus solution. You’ll also have the largest upgrade window available.

[garethace]

Thanks for making some very insightful observations there Greg. I never liked the way Dell put the PSU at the bottom of the chassis either. Since heat does tend to rise, which would mean hot air is now circulating around the inside of the chassis rather than being expelled through the rear. I notice with BOXX, you are getting a Sparkle PSU with plenty of wattage. So that is definetly a mark of a good maker.

 

Personally i am very disappointed about rambus going out of production. Because it is much easier to make process-wise long term. It was a much more future proof memory technology. The new DDR II is a joke at the moment, and DDR 400 specification is not even fully verified as a standard yet. IN fact, all DDR 3200 means is cherry picked DDR 333 modules. I believe that people were too quick to jump on the bandwagon, that rambus technology was bad in some way. The marketing and licensing of rambus was anti-competitiion for sure, but the basic technological ideas were far more 'future-proof' than DDR memory is.

 

I have just been informed that Dual channel DDR266 has the same bandwidth 4.2 GB/s as the P4's 533 MT/s FSB. This is why Intel (Dell) didn't support anything faster than DDR266 with Granite Bay.

 

Actually just checked, it might be pin upgradable to Prescott, but Prescott is 800 FSB. The board doesn't support that. It maxes out at 400/533. If Intel does decide to release 533 Prescotts, you'll take a 10-25% performance hit by remaining at a slower FSB, with a 2 gb/sec less bandwidth potential when compared to the true prescott motherboards.

Where i said the rambus system was cpu upgradable to Prescott was a mis-print on my part. I should have included that statement in my third last post (edited and rewritten), which was my final recommendation to JM Ataide on what to buy.

 

The Dell Precision 360 Model, which is entirely new with the Canterwood chipset etc., and Dell still haven't managed to update parts of their web site as yet to show this new model.

 

4) Wait a single month and buy either an i865PE or i875 motherboard with an 800 FSB Intel P4. This of course uses DC-DDR which provides 6.4 gb/sec of bandwidth, far more then any current Rambus solution. You’ll also have the largest upgrade window available.

Yeah, i think that is the new Precision 360 system which Dell have just posted on there web site. It caused my some confusion because, in Dell's table of Precision workstation memory standards they have not listed it yet. To augment this, the traditional Dimension line of home desktops seems to be discontinued now, which confused me even more - currently you can only buy Optiplex systems OR Precision models. So obviously they have scraped the idea of the home desktop altogether. Even though there home desktop models are still listed in the memory standard tables, with the faster DDR memory!!! :ngeupset:

[Greg Hess]

The new DDR II is a joke at the moment, and DDR 400 specification is not even fully verified as a standard yet. IN fact, all DDR 3200 means is cherry picked DDR 333 modules.

 

I completely agree with you. Most people getting canterwood from Dell and what have you, will probably be getting the remarked PC2700 DDR dimms. However those who build the systems themselves will be able to purchase true PC3200 2-2-2 dimms, and greatly benefit from their own customizations. Even corsair is recommending the PC3200 2-2-2 or PC3500 2-2-2 dimms with the Canterwood chipsets. Guess we'll see a division of memory manufacturers as to what will/won't actually perform with a i865PE or i875.

 

I believe that people were too quick to jump on the bandwagon, that rambus technology was bad in some way. The marketing and licensing of rambus was anti-competitiion for sure, but the basic technological ideas were far more 'future-proof' than DDR memory is.

 

Thats a very debatable subject. I disagree with many of rambus's business practices, which is primarily one of the reasons for their downfall. I remember when their stock was upwards of 140+ USD per share before it plummeted to abysmal levels.

 

The Dell Precision 360 Model, which is entirely new with the Canterwood chipset etc., and Dell still haven't managed to update parts of their web site as yet to show this new model.

 

Now that I can go along with .

 

Though I still lean towards a boxx/alienware purchase over a Dell. Always nicer to have Standard ATX components in your machine, increases the value of the computer, plus allows you to use manufacturer specific updates, instead of waiting for Dell to fix something.