trying to upgrade

[adrihalut]

Hello All

 

About a year ago I built a dual athlon for my Max and graphics based solely on the advice of 3d tech forums (or… Greg Hess)

 

I’m back with a build-from-scratch issue. I bought used components from this nice fellow on ebay a Soyo SY-K7ADA v.1.0 motherboard, 1.4 GHZ athlon thunderbird (attached) and two 128 MB pc2100 DDR dimms. this is to upgrade my second 5-year-old (what’s that in computer years, 96?) dell 233mhz mmx 64 ram, for internet and other infectuous applications.

 

I got a Radeon 9000 videocard but I don't think its involved in the problem described. pressed very hard on the dimms etc.

 

i hope you might have some advice, and a few minutes to share them with me.

 

I got to the first power-up test of a new setup: as few installed parts as possible- less troubleshooting: mother board, cpu, cpu fan, single memory dimm, videocard, front pannel power-on, front pannel (system)speaker and PSU connction. Nothing more.

 

with this setup I should see the cpu and chipset fans turning, hear a few beeps out of the system speaker and see something on the screen.

 

at that point I would unplug and continue installing components.

 

what i got was a turn of the two fans for a split of a second and then everything stopped. i unplugged right away. to get to this result again i would have to jump the CMOS (otherwise there would be no response at all) and re-attempt with some variation. this points at an issue confined to either the motherboard or the memory (in my opinion) because contact with the videocard is not even made at this point.

 

i have made numerous attemps with proven-to-work parts. two new PSU's, four different memory dimms, two different cases (had to take apart my new dual athlon system) and even an attempt aoutside a case (to rule out shortrening by the case) (by now, of course, a thermalright heatsink is properly attached to the cpu with arctic silver compound)

 

I have my (tons of) literature with me from the previous system I built but i don't know what to do next with this situation.

 

at the first stages of the process i double-checked all of the jumper settings with the manual (which i have printed out and have read entirely) and it seems this guy had them set up right. i always wear an anti-static wrist band and there were no incidents that might have damaged the board.

 

have you any suggestions???

 

Thanks very much. Ilan.

[Greg Hess]

Beeping is usually an indication of....

 

1. Bad cpu or cpu not properly installed.

2. Overheating cpu.

3. Cpu fan not plugged into the motherboard 3 prong cpufan plug.

4. Memory not seated correctly.

5. Incorrect memory, size/type.

6. Video card not detected. Agp voltage wrong. Agp/pci video card loose.

 

Fan's turning on and then immediately turning off is usually a sign of....

 

1. A short somewhere in the case/motherboard. Check all wires/loose screws.

2. A problem with the power supply.

3. cpu fan not plugged into the motherboard.

4. No cpu detected. (Depends on mboard)

5. The power button being jammed into an on position, which causes the system to shutoff 3 seconds after it starts.

6. Loose power supply cords. Power supply cords plugged into something thats shorting.

 

7. DOA motherboard.

[adrihalut]

Hey Greg. Thanks for the response.

 

It’s not a beeping problem, I never get that far, both cpu and chipset fans show split-second power supply and that’s it. Everything stops.

 

As to the second part of your reply, Check my reasoning while I try to rule out some of the possibilities.

 

“1. A short somewhere in the case/motherboard. Check all wires/loose screws.”

“2. A problem with the power supply.”

“5. The power button being jammed into an on position, which causes the system to shutoff 3 seconds after it starts.”

 

I attempted in two separate cases with two separate perfectly functioning (tested with my Dual Athlon system) PSU’s (Antec 400W, Enermax 300W) and outside a case. This does not rule out a short in the motherboard.

 

“3. cpu fan not plugged into the motherboard.”

 

Both cpu fan and chipset fan rotated, synchronized, for the same split-second duration every time. This lead me to hypothesize that after the initial power-up by the PSU, a returning signal from the motherboard to the PSU is required to allow continuation of the supply of power. This circuit is not complete and the PSU does not receive the OK signal and therefore stops.

 

“6. Loose power supply cords. Power supply cords plugged into something that’s shorting.”

 

Two separate cases have two separate power cords going to two separate outlets which have been serving my workstation area all along.

 

I think I’m left with

 

“4. No cpu detected. (Depends on mboard)”

“7. DOA motherboard.”

And short in the motherboard.

 

Sounds like I’m bribed because these are all problems that are not within my fault but please let me know if I’m correct.

 

Ill’ ask the guy who sold me this for permission to remove and re-seat the CPU, I’ve never done that before.

 

Thanks again. Ilan.

[Greg Hess]

"Both cpu fan and chipset fan rotated, synchronized, "

 

Yes, but is the cpu fan plugged into the motherboard CPU_FAN Plug? Alot of motherboards have auto shutoff switches if the fan rpm on the CPU_FAN plug drops below 2,000 rpm. Of course if it isn't plugged in that plug at all, it will always auto shutoff. Although reseting the bios usually resets this function, sometimes the default settings is on.

 

“4. No cpu detected. (Depends on mboard)”

“7. DOA motherboard.”

And short in the motherboard.

 

The short in the motherboard is usually detected by looking for discolorization in the pcb.

 

New things to check...

 

reseat the ram...again. \

 

Try dimm slot 3 instead of dimm slot 1 as primary.

 

Check all jumpers. Make sure one isn't set wrong, or that one didn't come off, and that the bios is set to standard mode and not flash. (A bios set to flash will usually turn on then shut right off as well)

 

Remember...you should have just the cpu, heatsink, 1 dimm, video card, and keyboard. Nothing else.

 

Hmm lets see.... Try a pci card instead of an agp card, or another agp card. Try a different memory dimm.

 

Next steps are removing the heatsink, cleaning off the surface of the cpu, checking for visable damage (chips, or discolorization), trying a different cpu, putting the same cpu back on with a nice coat of thermal grease and the heatsink.

 

See how that goes. If that all fails, try the cpu in another board. If that doesn't fail. Cut your losses and pick up a ECS K7S5A motherboard from newegg.com. They go for about 50 bucks, support tbirds, xp's, tbred, as well as sdram and ddr (though not at the same time) and have onboard ethernet and sound.

[adrihalut]

yes, it is a 3-pin to mobo fan and the mobo is not realy giving the fan much of a chance to get to 2000 rpm.

 

what/where is the pcb?

 

"check bios set to standard mode (not flash)"

 

how do you check anything about the bios without powerin-up the system? is there a physical bios entity on the mobo? (like the cmos jumper)?

 

i'm pretty sure i got the front panel power-on and speaker right. but that could'nt be it right?

 

anyway Greg, I'll try all you suggested and check back. the problem is at home and i have internet only at work (since at home everything is in pieces)

 

Thanks a lot. Ilan.

[Greg Hess]

"what/where is the pcb?"

 

The green stuff on the board. Basically the whole thing with all the wires and connectors and do hickeys. Discolorization looks like someone bruised the motherboard.

 

"is there a physical bios entity on the mobo? (like the cmos jumper)?"

 

Yes there is a jumper. This is where the manual comes in handy. Some jumpers have three modes. Normal. Setup. And Flash. If its set to flash, the computer will turn on and shut right back off.

 

"i'm pretty sure i got the front panel power-on and speaker right. but that could'nt be it right?"

 

Flip them around for the hell of it. Also try using the reset switch connector instead of the power switch, and starting the system with the reset button.

[adrihalut]

So I went over the motherboard with a flashlight and magnifying glass and all looks fine- no discoloration or damages. nothing on the case that could short the board. I added the keyboard to the equation. tried a few memory sticks on dimm no.3. re-checked all jumpers.

 

But I swear I could'nt find any bios jumper or any mention of it in the manual. i see the bios chip on the board but it does'nt seem to be operable in any way. are you saying this jumper apears typically on all motherboards?

 

tonight i'll try, as a last resort, your suggestions from today involving the front pannel reset switch and tripplechecking the hardware bios issue. I guess after that I'll have to pack and ship back the goods.

 

Hey Greg, Thanks a lot. It's good hearing from you again and I hope you're enjoying the university, seems to me like the best workplace imaginable.

[seismograph]

This sounds like a broken MB. If the fans move only few millimeters then the MB switch off the power for some reason...

Normaly it should boot even if the memory or cpu is broken.

 

anyway:

Athlon thunderbird? ..with the right cpu stepping and core?

 

eh.. have you plugged in an usb device?(mouse , keyboard) ..we had some prbl with an tyan board one year ago when we used an usb KB... dunno why.

 

AGP issue? -> try a different card (i always has my old paradise card around for that)

 

then there are other funny things too:

-reset pins power on/off pins

-softbios with some "tweaks" for the vcore ..maybe you can reset the cmos somewhere?

-just have a look at the pins on your MB or your serial, parallel ports; maybe there is a closed circute somewhere.

[adrihalut]

The cpu stepping and core are set to 'Auto' as they were set before I got them. All jumper setting were properly set by the previous owner, he used the mtherboard and CPU as they are set now. No USB devices attached.

 

Since both you and Greg suggest checking AGP issues. I'll try my other AGP card (I don't have a pci card) but I don't see how videocard could be a participant in the first half second of power-up (or, why it would stop power supply).

 

Thanks for the help. Ilan.

[Greg Hess]

"But I swear I could'nt find any bios jumper or any mention of it in the manual."

 

Usually its a CMOS FLASH jumper. With 3 pins on nearby the cmos battery. If there isn't a jumper, you can force a reset by removing the CMOS battery.

 

"I hope you're enjoying the university, seems to me like the best workplace imaginable."

 

Ya its nice cause the professors have alot of extra cash, so I get first hand experience on all computer hardware.

 

www.3dluvr.com/crossbow/incoming/Photos/Work

 

(Pics of my Office/Lab with one of the new machines I'm building [black] in the background)

[adrihalut]

Oh the CMOS FLASH jumper. i did'nt know the term was interchangable with BIOS jumper. Yeah, that i've been messing with all along. every new try required that i reset the jumper otherwise there would be no response.

 

do you suppose the manual may have reversed the instructions and I should have 2-3 capped (normal mode) rather than 1-2? should I give it a try? is it dangerous to try to switch power on with the CMOS jumper set wrong?

 

nice pictures. i see you got your 'Newegg.com Black Aluminum Silver Cut Case Badge' saves about $2,000 compared to a dell sticker. I think the University of Maryland got themselves a good deal!

 

Ilan.

[Greg Hess]

Just take out the bios battery to be safe. Oh I see what you mean...what if the manual got it backwards...hmm..well if your returning it anyway, its worth a shot .

 

Ya the system shown there is a 2.53B with 512 megs of Corsair PC3000 XMS Cas2 DDR, with a WD800JB and a ti 4200 gainward, with a 19 inch viewsonic VX900, and a bunch of other stuff. Came to around 2k.

[adrihalut]

its over. i've sent the goods back.

 

i'm going with newegg, the motherboard that you recommended and

 

CRUCIAL MICRON 256MB 32x64 PC 2100 DDR RAM - OEM 184-Pin, CL=2.5-Unbuffered 2.5V, 6-Layers

 

Greg, can this memory be later added to my dual Athlon system along with two existing Mushkin 256MB pc2100 DDR Reg. ECC (those have gone from $70 -one year ago- to $105) or do they all have to be registered and ECC?

[Greg Hess]

Greg, can this memory be later added to my dual Athlon system along with two existing Mushkin 256MB pc2100 DDR Reg. ECC

 

No it can not. You can either run 2 unbuffered dimms on a dual athlon, or 4 registered. You can not mix registered and unbuffered.

 

Why aren't you picking up more mushkin?

 

And what motherboard did I recommend? That recommendation might have changed .

[adrihalut]

i'm sorry, my dual athlon runs two

 

CORSAIR PC2100 256MB ECC DDR 32X72 REG. USES 16MX8

 

i'm now thinking of getting a

 

CRUCIAL MICRON 256MB 32x64 PC 2100 DDR RAM - OEM 184-Pin, CL=2.5-Unbuffered 2.5V, 6-Layers

 

for $70. i could get a

 

CORSAIR MEMORY 256MB PC2100 VALUE SELECT. DDR RAM - OEM

32x64 184-Pin, CAS2.5-Unbuffered

 

for $94 or one identical to my dual athlon (corsair ecc reg etc.) for $105.

 

a few posts back you suggested I "pick up a ECS K7S5A motherboard from newegg.com. They go for about 50 bucks" of coarse you correctly cosidered that this is primarilly an internet computer and i'm trying to keep it cheap (as with the memory).

 

Ilan.

[Greg Hess]

Well unbuffered ram won't work on the dual athlon .

 

The ECS board would be fine for another system .

[bigcahunak]

Ahalan Ilan,

As Greg mentioned earlier, your system can ran all memory banks full with memory sticks, but they have to be REGed, which is what you have at the moment. Meaning, you can add more... Problem is that both the sticks you mentioned there are Unbuffered, so they wont run with your existing memory.

With Unbuffered sticks you can run up to 2 sticks.

So, if you want to add sme ram its best to get what you have.

I also run a dual athlon rig with 2x256mb crucial Unbuffered with no probs - meaning that if I want more ram I have to replace my current memory.

 

Hope it helps.

 

BTW: I also happen to have one machine that is based on an ECS K7S5A and I can recommend it too. Its a solid board with a great price tag. If I compare it to my other Athlon rigs (VIA KT266A) it is really not too far behind.

 

Also, another warm vote to newegg. Love them.

 

Good luck.

[adrihalut]

does adding a kingston reg ecc to the two corsair reg ecc make any sense? i'm gonna let you guys go after this. thanks again.

 

bigcahunak ma koreh? any jobs over there? we're looking to come back.

 

Ilan.

[bigcahunak]

Ilan,

You should have no problems with mixing Kingston with corsair if they are both ECC reged.

 

No jobs arround here. I just came back alittle over a year ago and already thinking about returning... Unless you have a specific place to return to, I suggest to wait for better times...

[adrihalut]

what do you know. crucial is giving a $25 coupon for there 256 reg ecc. $74, less than $70 if you're not within there taxed states.

 

but i have to bug you one last time. hopefully i get a response soon so i can order already...

 

1- so this ECS K7S5A takes DDR, does this automatically mean that reg ecc is good for the board?

 

2- wise me forgot that a cpu is required! is xp1600 (1.4 GHZ)not a better cpu than T-Bird 1.4 GHZ? somehow newegg has the latter at $20 more..?

 

thank you, thank you. Ilan

[Greg Hess]

1- so this ECS K7S5A takes DDR, does this automatically mean that reg ecc is good for the board?

 

No. The ECS board only takes unbuffered ram it looks like. I'm downloading the manual to check, but looks like a no go.

 

2- wise me forgot that a cpu is required! is xp1600 (1.4 GHZ)not a better cpu than T-Bird 1.4 GHZ? somehow newegg has the latter at $20 more..?

 

Yes the 1600+ XP is superior in every manner and form. What you see is a classic example of supply and demand. Nobody wants the 1.4 tbird, which isn't in production anymore. On the side, the 1600+ XP has an extremely high yield, which makes it very inexpensive to make, and is also still in production.

[adrihalut]

manual sats: "ddr dimm...requires 184-pin 2.5v unbuffered DIMM module rather than the 168-pin 3.3v unbuffered DIMMs used by sdram...

 

so its either trying to cancel the memory order (fast) or return the radeon 9000 and get a

 

Asus A7N266-VM NVIDIA nFORCE 220 Chipset 266/200MHz FSB Motherboard Micro ATX

 

which has onboard video (lousy ???) and hopefully takes registered memory.

[adrihalut]

20 minutes after ordering from crucial, they claim fed-ex has already got it...!

 

regarding the

 

Asus A7N266-VM NVIDIA nFORCE 220 Chipset 266/200MHz FSB Motherboard Micro ATX

 

page 13 of its manual describes the memory compatability in detail but makes no mention of registered or unbuffered. the onboard video is geforce2 MX- pretty bad hah, but for internet only??? (then again, reg, ecc, all that stuff only for internet?)

 

i can still return the registered memory (when it arrives), order unbuffered and go with the ECS

[adrihalut]

hey Greg, you know something about the A7N266-VM (with its onboard Gforce2 MX)?

[Greg Hess]

I know that the fellow on the cgtalk forum doesn't recommend it.

 

I'm also pretty sure it won't take registered DDR.

 

Maybe you should just abort everything and start over .