Maxwell 1.0 Release is pushed back again

[yog]

This was not a RC release, but a PR release. Pity it isn't even doing much for PR.

This is the most astute comment I have seen so far.

[3dworks]

...

This was not a RC release, but a PR release. Pity it isn't even doing much for PR.

 

yes, it was a PUR release (public un-relation release), LOL. i really hope they can change their customers relations attitude, because the software is great for sure... and probably they did make a big mistake going 'undercover' with development (de facto excluding all early adopters from the open beta) a few months ago - the own beta team is apparently not capable to test all the platform/ plugin issues.

[buffos]

I dont know if the new engine rocks, but the only scene i have tested, the one mverta gave in the forum, after 5 hours was still very noisy. And it was just one emmiter and 2 balls. One diffuse and the other a 2layered material.

 

By the way. Do you know how to do a SSS material?

 

Anyway. I cannot understand how they dare call that an RC.

Ofcourse when users eat the bait and call the previous thing an beta, so they can call that whatever they want..

 

I am now 100% sure, that most of the function we have been promised will not be avaliable anytime soon.

 

Perhaphs Vray will be here sooner than Maxwell (and i mean the final).

[AJLynn]

Finally got Maxwell to do something. This is going to sound ridiculous but it's the only workflow I've found that gets a complex C4D file into M~R without crashing something:

 

Took a C4D file I'd done using bone-deformed boxes getting messed up by TP, baked the particles and made editable at a frame midway through the animation. Then exported a 3DS file. Opened it in Max (because Max has an updated M~R plugin), set up a M~R camera and material, then hit render to generate te MXS file, which will render as a black screen in MXCL but can be opened in MXST. Set up a sky in MXST (the MXS file loses my sky settings) and hit preview and, voila!

 

 

If I hit render, I still get the black screen. I haven't seen anybody get a working skylit render out of MXCL yet, but emitters seem to work, sort of.

[AJLynn]

And an interior, about 20 minutes render, still in the preview window:

 

[AJLynn]

Based on the render times and complexity of these tests, and with the amount of dielectrics and metals involved, I'm actually impressed with the speed and quality of the updated core. But everything else - the interface, materials editor, stability, plugins, file import, lack of documentation, non-functioning MXCL, broken direct sun, etc, etc, etc, is really aggravating. The software is not yet useful.

[chuck]

this is really starting to get old. i'm going back to vray free for production work. i want to work from max, not import it into their buggy studio software.

 

the B+W image is RC, the color is beta....

 

when is the next vray coming out?

 

chuck

[AJLynn]

Stick with the beta. That's a fantastic render.

[buffos]

AJlynn.

 

Those pics are nice.

I have too found some ways to avoid maxwell crashing.

What i did find though, is that the layering system does not work as fast as i thought.

 

The material system is GREAT. I see people in the forum screaming that its complicated but i think they dont understand the potential. Its one of the best i have seen so far. You can actually create the most complex material you can imagine. (i did not understand yet how i can define a complex IOR).

 

I also see them scream about the 3d editor. I still think that its a result of not working. The workflow is not as stip as they imagine. BUT the problem is some basic functionality is missing. For example a "SMART MERGE" function that will leave intact unchanged object (so you will not lose information)

 

Scientifically , NL is in the correct track. I am 100% sure about that.

I am although 100% sure that they dont know how to run a business.

And as Elton John says "Sorry seems to be the hardest word"

[_PopArt]

Scientifically, it may be on line, and i does have potential, but the rc can't be described as anything other than a total disaster. Anyone who releases this as an alpha wouldn't be taken seriously, let's not even talk out rc. Unthinkable. Even the new core engine looks like its gonna need a very long pitstop. And by now it should be more than obvious that whoever's calling the shots over at NL has no clue as concerns anything. They're saying that in a few days it will patched. Go figure...

[AJLynn]

Scientifically, it may be on line, and i does have potential, but the rc can't be described as anything other than a total disaster. Anyone who releases this as an alpha wouldn't be taken seriously, let's not even talk out rc. Unthinkable. Even the new core engine looks like its gonna need a very long pitstop. And by now it should be more than obvious that whoever's calling the shots over at NL has no clue as concerns anything. They're saying that in a few days it will patched. Go figure...

 

I think it looks worse than it is, because of interface issues, which are much easier to fix than engine issues. The engine is much, much better than the beta, and I think it's release quality. Have you seen the tests? The RC engine is doing things that no other renderer is capable of, quickly enough to make it usable.

 

The problem is getting the scene info to the engine - basically everything involved in that is broken. Looks like the problem is they so much time on the engine they let a lot of other things slide, but these are relatively minor glitches.

 

I think they could actually have a real RC quality program in a month.

[buffos]

I said in another forum a well known anectode of Hodza.

About a peasant that complains that his house is small, Hotza passes by and puts in his house 2 cows and a donkey, leaves and comes back a month later, he takes back his animals and suddenly the peasant feels that his house is big and luxurious.

 

I very much feel the same about what NL is doing now. Sense the analogies.

 

Anyway, i think that with the correct pressure the product will be OK.

But if the users keep the same funboy atitude then it will be a disaster.

I really am amazed that the funboys still are will NL. You can back someone up that is worthy of your support. But that support (of the funboys) is simply pathological.

[wondertonio]

Hi buffos !

 

I'm "baboule " from Maxwell forum.

 

I agree with you : fanboys are a pain in the *** and they don't push things forward. There are 2 to 4 at most on the forum, and they'll find any excuses to Next Limit no matter what happens. It's true.

 

But on the other hand, flameboys are also a big pain in the back...

For example flameboys who, because they someday get to know there is an internal beta testing team at NL and they're not a part of it, will get upset and decide to post in every single thread of the forum to say how bad Next Limit is and calling them thieves whenever they have the chance...

That would be the kind of flameboy that would annoy even regular users, no ?

 

Flameboys are as unuseful and annoying as fanboys, I personnally don't see any difference. It doesn't make the things go faster nor better.

 

I also have a story : the one of the boy who regularly go to the village and shouts there is a wolf attacking him, without there is one.

A day, a wolf eventually really attacks the boy, but when he begs for help, nobody would believe him anymore...

 

Bottom line(s) is that NL's PR are inexistant.

Their RC is not a RC but a beta.

Their guilty silence towards their customers/clients is unexcusable.

Their engine and material editor looks (more than) good.

Their GUI-guy should be hanged hi and short.

They'll never make it full-featured in the delays they announced.

 

And finally, fanboys and flamebays are bad.

[_PopArt]

The problem comes from NL here. They desperately need PROS in every aspect of maxwell from this point onwards - development, GUI, compiling, communication...So far they've taken a banana republic approach to all of this and its brought them to the brink of disaster. The fact that mverta has become the new 'lead moderator' exactly with the release of the RC shows that NL is trying to tap the holes and get a more professional approach. The fanboy/flameboy issue is entirely the fault of NL - they used the forum as a classic reward system - the first guy to do 3000 posts (2500 of which were vapor posts) became moderator, and many other fanboys became beta testers - and this is a recipe for disaster. NL got fanboy kids as betatesters (that's what they wanted), and as a result, the flameboys kids went to war with the fanboy kids and then the predictable chaos. Look at some of the 'betatesters' on the forum! Somebody asks them 'did the skylight work in your beta builds?' And the betatester answers "I don't know, i never tried it, I don't like it.' What a JOKE! Betatesters are supposed to turn the software inside out, torture test it from every angle....This is NOT serious.

 

NL needs to clean house. The material system does look interesting, so we know the programmer's are on track, but they need to do alot of housecleaning as concerns the rest...

[buffos]

In case (which is most propable ) that you see me as a flameboy, let me please provide you with some insight on my way of thinking, if that matters.

 

I know how programmin works. I also know that when you say smthg will be ready in 1 month then its a clue that is almost complete. I also think that even if you make the mistake once, then you should be carefull not to make it twice.

When i bought the program, they said in a month they will have the GUI and material editor and... ready. Smthg like what we got now. Instead after some months we recieved a new version, with almost no new features. That alone is not bad. But think. When you have a stable version,an almost finalished core SDK, adding features is not so time consuming as you think. So its safe to speculate that NL was still in deep waters. As time passed, i was 100% sure + the ZERO user support + emails that never got answered.

 

Some may have to wait for a long time to understand the obvious. But its simple. Please read a paper on how to implement displacement maps.

You will see that if you have the sdk, it a weeks job at MOST.

But that is the case if you have solved everythink else.

 

So i hope you understand that what i was trying to do , was "force" NL to be sincere. Tell the truth. Give real information. They never did that.

A flameboy, will question everythink they do.

 

I dont.

For example i see a lot of positive moves with this release.

The material editor is VERY VERY VERY good.

It has some certain drawbacks but it think its easy to fix them.

For example its nice to see a blending material mode (they called that layering) but i would also like to see a stacked material mode.

Ofcourse with texture support blending could be AMAZING and the materials created very good.

The complex ior, is for the moment not usable i think but still a great tool.

 

This is the nice point. The bad point. I will answer with a question. Do you think that the progress they did in 6 months since the last update justifies the wait? I answer i dont know. I have a strange feeling, so i better not talk.

 

Well i think i pursaded you i am not a flameboy,but if i did not, i hope i pursaded you i am not an idiot

[RyanSpaulding]

In some ways, I think the rabid frantic users may have forced the release of buggy software. Justifiably so, but relentless attacks in Maxwell threads all over the internet may force a company to release something that mosty works and is buggy just to shut up the onslaught for a bit.

 

And now they'll pay again I'm sure.

 

I deal with this issue with e-on and Vue 5 Infinite. We pushed and got a buggy piece that had to be recalled because we were so deamanding to get the software and we'ren't patient. NOW Vue is becoming great after the company has time to fix everything. I'm sure they're working all the time. It's not as if it's like 1 guy in a cubicle taking half days. Just takes time.

[Christopher Nichols]

I'm not a Maxwell user or anything, but have been around to test software... I have done several beat test with Discreet (sorry... Autodesk) to make the process fairly routine.

 

1 - Usually when software is being written, it starts with a list of Features.

 

2 - When the software is stable enough (but still very buggy) to test and does not have all its features is is called an Alpha

 

3 - When all the features are added, but there are still known bugs, this is called a Beta. Betas are heavilly tested by power users and system tests, to help reproduce errors to help identify the bugs

 

4 - Once all known bugs are killed, and they believe that the software is stable enough for production, this is called a Release Candidate. Usually a few power users will put it in heavy production and test to see if they find any hard core bugs.

 

5 - If (more like when) any remaining known bugs are found and patched. A Release is submitted.

 

6 - Sometimes certain features were only fixed by a patch that is not that great (slower performance for example), or there are bugs that pop up that people missed. These are addressed as Point Releases.

 

If you guys don't have all the features and are crashing?... I hate to say it, but you guys are far from Release Candidate or Beta... you are in Alpha.

 

For example, in Vray the official release is 1.09. That has all the features they promised, is stable, etc... The latest release 1.4x is considered a beta. Personally, I consider it an Alpha, since they still have features they are adding. On the other hand the 1.4x is pretty stable and solid so you don't hear many complaints about it. It also has been used in production used in several feature films and commercials.

 

I am surprised by the amount of you that are demanding your money back. I am surprised that a class action law suit has not been started.

[Fran]

What Andronikos and Andrew have posted are images created with the Preview function. The Preview engine is separate from the Render engine. Physical Sky, Sunlight and Skydome don't work with the Render engine. The Render engine can only produce grayscale images, judging from my tests.

[Ernest Burden III]

I am surprised by the amount of you that are demanding your money back. I am surprised that a class action law suit has not been started.

 

That's next. How one does that against a firm in the EU isn't something I know anything about, but it is an option of last resort that is looking more and more likely with each new falsehood from NextLimit.

 

I have suggested issuing a deadline for them to issue a no-BS roadmap with a detailed punchlist of what work remains to be done and an estimate for each step...or be subject to whatever consumer protections the EU affords and/or our creditcard companies.

 

To put it another way, this situation is becoming absurd, and it is time to put a stop to it. Either they can produce what they promised or they cannot. Whichever it will be, it should be soon. Many of us have money tied up in the product, and as investors we should have the right to pull the plug at some point. That point comes soon.

[William Alexander]

and as investors we should have the right to pull the plug at some point. That point comes soon.

 

Investors...that really sums it up, imho. If this were stock....the IPO and related, exagerated hype= big money, long term> poor fundamentals though.

 

I really hope they pull the rabbit out of the hat (or other place). Being rather cynical of this seemingly over promised, over hyped, niche' kind of tool...it does Next Limit or the industry no favors when people have to decide if they bought 'Snake Oil'. Plus was really hoping (still) they could take this creative marketing/development strategy to a successful conclusion. Certianly two thumbs up for having 'Balls'

 

This kind of ferver is starting to roll over to Modo pusing back 201's release and certianly could hurt the pre-order/get more cash to develop the really good potential tools for our industry....just is not a good thing all around in my mind

 

WDA

[buffos]

Do you know what is funny.

Victor made an announcement, as usual, saying that they released that because they were under pressure and that they may have made bad project planning. And after that a big list of ***** started saying thx victor.

 

Sorry but i really dont understant it. I have to ask an expert on psyhology.

Victor actually said that they were under pressure to release smthg.!!!

I guess if they did not sell that smthg noone would demand it.

Also if they gave an option to refund, maybe there would not press.

But nothing was said, how the " we are very close and want to polish the product" that was said in october, brings us 2 months later to that crap!!!!

 

But i can understand victor. He is trying to save the boat. That is ok.

But users thanking him for speaking and saying nothing about the real problem.

 

Its like you meet someone, he beats you heavily, and then he says, sorry i was upset but you got in my way, and you reply thank you sir. Thx for talking to me!!! Really amazing

[_PopArt]

As has been mentioned, NL does have offices in the US, Washington DC, as listed on their site. This makes them accountable under US law.

It's become a really messy situation, though, which is not uncommon. At this point I doubt that NL is controlling their own future - they've got some investors behind them pulling the strings, there's gotta be alot of conflict going on. The honeymoon's definitely over...

[Ernest Burden III]

Investors...that really sums it up, imho.

 

Customers buy a product...we don't have a product. So you have to look at the money we put into Maxwell as an investment...therefore, that makes us investors. Sometimes investors pull the plug on companies that aren't performing, even if they are still actively working on something promising. In that case the investors usually lose their money, but I am having trouble seeing this work out as a win for us.

 

First step is to demand a policy statement on refunds for those that have had enough. I will probably post that one by Tuesday, unless there are some pleasant surprises in the meantime.

[bully712]

unless there are some pleasant surprises in the meantime.

 

Truely how much longer do we have to wait? Before I knew about Maxwell, I was searching for a rendering engine, and with the high hope of Maxwell, I held off from buying Vray. Now all these months have past bye, and I still don't have one. At this time, what if Vray was discounted? Do you think they would make a killing after all this Maxwell crap?

[Devin Johnston]

In my opinion we are dealing with an alpha version of Maxwell and at some point they will have to admit that. Ernest is also correct, I believe that only some kind of legal action is going to get this ship back on course. Up until now NL has been shielded from most of it's customers due to its physical location and also to a large extent the fanboy base that exist on their forum. It's pretty clear now that that base has taken a serious hit and this latest insult to our collective intelligence (Release Candidate) has really pissed some people off.

 

I think Victor is starting to see the writing on the wall and that's why he posted that announcement. He also mentioned that there would be some kind of compensation for existing customers, this really kills me. Maybe they will reverse their stance on core=CPU, something that they should have done in the first place, but what ever it is it's to little to late.