otacon Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 Buffos is right. Its hilarious reading all the thank you's to victor for his rehashed announcement/excuse thats been made time and time again over the last year. Its no surprise they keep letting the users down, they know they can gain them back with a little pep talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackb602 Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 Customers buy a product...we don't have a product. So you have to look at the money we put into Maxwell as an investment...therefore, that makes us investors. Sometimes investors pull the plug on companies that aren't performing, even if they are still actively working on something promising. In that case the investors usually lose their money, but I am having trouble seeing this work out as a win for us. I too looked at this as an investment/gamble back in January. The disconcerting thing about the investment analogy is that sometimes the hot stock that you bought at $30/share ends up being worth only a few pennies. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wondertonio Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 Do you know what is funny. Victor made an announcement, as usual, saying that they released that because they were under pressure and that they may have made bad project planning. And after that a big list of ***** started saying thx victor. Stockholm syndrome Concerning legal action, I think that most of us didn't even think about it because even if we take slap over slap in our faces, Maxwell is NOT vaporware. It's on the go and it's promising. The so called Alpha and Beta were already good enough to catch so many people... Some even talked about the fact they had fun again rendering. So Next Limit is mute and deaf, the final is more than late, the RC is not one and we are not counting the missing features and the bugs, etc. But would I take a legal action against them to get my money back and put them to their knees ? Definitly no. I don't see it as a solution. Legally killing NL would also kill Maxwell and Realflow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffos Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 This is what refrained me from going for legal action, although i was banned and have zero support, i think legal action would be the last measure. I really believe in the carrot and whip strategy, although the fanboys feed to much carrot and NL has a full stomach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wondertonio Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 It's true that until now, NL team and beta-beta testers (I don't really know how to call them) have been almost patronizing regular customers, with a "you don't know yet what's going on" attitude. It's even the way they justified their lateness. Up until last minute (litteraly), they've been saying things like "you won't be disappointed", "it's really worth it", ... And I really think something went wrong. I don't know if they were so into their thing that they didn't consider issues as real issues. Or if they added last minute code that messed everything up (I don't believe that as it would be so stupid). Or something else !? I can't believe someone can seriously deliver something like that, with so many easy-fix bugs (a button that opens the wrong window for example... )... Anyway, spanish people are proud people, developpers are proud people, scientifics are proud people... I think that this release has been a slap in their face. And I think (I hope) it will have teach them a lesson of humility, and they'll make all their efforts in erasing the shame of the "RC1". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_PopArt Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 After months of arrogant behaviour, flaming people on the forum, and behaving like total arses, after the release of the rc debacle, the betatesters, as far as i can seen on the forum, have pulled out 2 images of chrome balls to show what their beta testing involved. This, after months of gloating and continually stating that v1.0 would be 'shocking,' (which ironically it was), and then having the nerve to say 'well, the build i had worked alot better,' and then still not post any images they have done using it! They are helping to make NL the laughing stock of the CG world! And just a few months ago NL was supposed to conquer it! Plus Victor probably wrote that letter to defend himself from the eventual possibility of a lawsuit, because obviously he's in an undefendable position after the latest setback. The people thanking him are just kids, nobody sane of mind would do the same... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mesht Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 well, everybody is very dissappointed with the RC1 release, including myself, since i've been using Maxwell Beta for the past 8 mths or so. i have to admit Alpha and Beta versions performed far more superior than the RC1, in terms of stability and functions. i don't know what NL has been doing for the past mnths trying to 'perfect' the RC1, in the end, become a disastrous results, i mean, what's with their 'systems' that they tested it seems fine and when released, we download and install and problems pops up one after another?! other mistake is, prior to the release, they should have at least prepare some kind of documentation on how to install, what are changes need to be made etc. now, i'm forced to go back to Beta which i think, the most stable till date, and still gives superior quality. so if NL wish to 'save' their reputation, they better come up with solutions REAL solutions....fast! no more promises..i think people are sick and tired of hearing those from them....i'm even ashamed to pursuade my employers to upgrade to version RC1. told them to hold back till it's stable! eventhough i'm utterly dissappointed with the NL team, netherless, my faith in Maxwell rendering engine (that if they do something real quick about it)still survive! guess it's Beta for me for quite a long period of time UNTIL, they really proved that RC1 is fully funcational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trick Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 What I find hilarious, is that the anouncement of RC1 is in the News Header of CGA's homepage 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 What I find hilarious, is that the anouncement of RC1 is in the News Header of CGA's homepage 8) I post unbiased news, that's it. I try not to let politics dictate what goes on the site. I am well aware of everyone's problems with the RC, but that does not make it any less newsworthy. Anyone who buys a new renderer will spend at least 5 min reading a forum somewhere and see that things are not going well. I'm only the messenger. I'm sure some would like to see me post that the RC is a failure on the home page, but that would require some upfront cash to pay my legal bills. Although it might be true, it does not stop someone from coming after me. Trust me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted December 5, 2005 Author Share Posted December 5, 2005 Jeff is right, if any of us ever want to see Maxwell become a real render engine the last thing we need to do is start calling for their heads. I think that NL is a group of very talented and smart individuals who desperately need a leader who can direct their talents in a singular direction. These guy's have screwed up in the worst possible way but they have to pick up the pieces and keep moving or everyone who gave them money is going to wind up loosing. One of the ways we can keep this from happening again is by demanding accountability from NL, make them show us what there doing, no more of this behind closed doors stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 Jeff is right, if any of us ever want to see Maxwell become a real render engine the last thing we need to do is start calling for their heads. I had emailed Jeff saying the RC1 release should not be news, since it is the subject of considerable controvercy. So I will accept upon myself the criticism he gave in a generic way above. However, I did not suggest a news item that says 'RC1 is complete failure', that wouldn't be any better. So if that bothered you jeff, I sincerely apologise. However, calling for their heads is exacly what needs to be done, unless they change their ways and fast. This situation is absurd and should not be allowed to go on any longer. Here's how I put it on another forum: "The only thing that baffles me as much as what NextLimit were thinking is this attitude that more time will solve the problem. They have had all the time they should have needed and have failed miserably. OK, give them another week to get honest with us, but if they cannot do that it is time to pull the damned plug. How long do we want to be strung along like idiots? I think the only way to allow NL to take another six month or one year is for them to refund all money to all of us investors and then honor the pre-purchase costs whenever, if ever, they manage to complete the project. They can get venture capital from others but they're going to have to honest because those people will break their kneecaps if they get fed bullpoopy. We just take it, and take it, and praise Tom and Victor on their forum. Enough." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adehus Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 I post unbiased news, that's it. I try not to let politics dictate what goes on the site. I am well aware of everyone's problems with the RC, but that does not make it any less newsworthy. Anyone who buys a new renderer will spend at least 5 min reading a forum somewhere and see that things are not going well. I'm only the messenger. I'm sure some would like to see me post that the RC is a failure on the home page, but that would require some upfront cash to pay my legal bills. Although it might be true, it does not stop someone from coming after me. Trust me. I can't understand this. It sounds to me that you're saying that you post only unbiased news... as long as it's good news? The big story is that the RC is a pre-alpha disaster (for the platforms that are actually supported). Doesn't posting a link to their home page (which is their primary means of marketing and selling their product) seem to whitewash the issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 I had emailed Jeff saying the RC1 release should not be news, since it is the subject of considerable controvercy. So I will accept upon myself the criticism he gave in a generic way above. However, I did not suggest a news item that says 'RC1 is complete failure', that wouldn't be any better. So if that bothered you jeff, I sincerely apologise. Nah, did not bother me at all. I was doing my catchup on all the Maxwell issues on a few forums and thought I'd post on this issue before it got any further. I'm still replying to your email personally, but a bit later today. Not that is makes anyone's issues less of a pain, but I can name at least one reseller who would like to see the product released. I know of some resellers who have purchased 10 times the volume we did...and that is a lot of $$. A LOT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted December 5, 2005 Author Share Posted December 5, 2005 Ok guy's it seems that we all agree that unless we do something NL is going to proceed in the same manner they have for the past year. The question is what can we do realistically that will have a definite impact on them? Should we begin an e-mail campaign that floods their server with our demands? Should we start a petition? What can we do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 I know of some resellers who have purchased 10 times the volume we did...and that is a lot of $$. A LOT! Retailers had to part with cash, too? If so, I can see why that would cause some concern. I am formulating a plan for success for the Maxwell project. It isn't written up and posted yet--and I hope NL makes it un-necessary. If anyone wants to work with me on this, email me. Investors have the power to redirect an errant company, its time to exercise that power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 I can't understand this. It sounds to me that you're saying that you post only unbiased news... as long as it's good news? The big story is that the RC is a pre-alpha disaster (for the platforms that are actually supported). Doesn't posting a link to their home page (which is their primary means of marketing and selling their product) seem to whitewash the issue? Huh? I think you may have misunderstood. By posted unbiased news, I was implying I post Press Releases that are of interest to the community without political bias. I understand your and everyone else's frustration with NL, but I mean come on. I'm not exactly the bad guy here, and as you can see in the earlier post, I'm in the same boat...VisMasters purchased a lot of Maxwell licenses and we can't sell them until they release the product. Like buying any product, people need to do their homework before purchasing software , while we do product reviews and attempt to keep everyone informed about new releases, I obviously can't keep up with them all which is one of the reasons we have user forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 Retailers had to part with cash, too? If so, I can see why that would cause some concern. With any software product, a reseller normally has to stock everything they want to sell. We all thought the product would be released quite a while ago too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adehus Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 Jeff- Please don't take it like I'm calling you the bad guy, I mean you no disrespect. I'm just wondering at what point a press release isn't worth posting. IMHO, posting a link to the Maxwell site is almost comparable to posting a link to the Aliencodec site. It really is starting to look that bad... while I suppose it's not necessarily your place to know this, it seems to me that promoting Maxwell as a 'release candidate' borders on fraud on the part of Next Limit. Anyhow, this probably isn't the proper place to discuss this, so I'll just let it go knowing I've expressed my feelings on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Nichols Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 This is what refrained me from going for legal action, although i was banned and have zero support, i think legal action would be the last measure. I really believe in the carrot and whip strategy, although the fanboys feed to much carrot and NL has a full stomach Are you serious? You paid money for your product a product that does not work, and you have been banned from the server and get no technical support, and you still don't want your money back? Like I said, I don't own maxwell or anything, and I just facinated my the gossip and drama of it all. And since I am a big Vray user, I really should not say anything on a public forum. But lets pretend we are at a cocktail party... I would say "Lawsuit... big time." Problem is, I bet, this is more like a con-artist situation, or Enron. The money that everyone has been giving them has been long spent and is no longer around to give back. I would talk to an accountant and see if you can write it off as a loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted December 5, 2005 Author Share Posted December 5, 2005 Exactly, I highly doubt that our money is just sitting in a bank account somewhere; from estimates I've seen based on the number of users NL has they've made less than $500,000 US on the sale of pre-release software world wide. I don't know how many people they have working there or what their resources are but $500,000 isn't going to last very long if NL is of any significant size. Our best bet is to gather support from the user base and force NL to open up and become accountable to those who keep them afloat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph alexander Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 How big is this company? It might just be six sleep deprived programmers. It's not Microsoft... I liked this comment. http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=283136&page=5&pp=15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffos Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 Christofer My lawyer said that i could, if i want, go after the local reseller which is definately nothing i am willing to do. I have also contacted the EU consumer commisioner asking for help. They replied, but i then decided to stop, because i had a serious job to finish, and i could not think about the 400$ i gave for maxwell. I did sent them an email afew days ago, i hope i will get a satisfying answer soon. I am really tired of the situation. And i am also a little dissapointed because when i asked for user solidarity everyone shouted..."give him to the wolves".......... :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adehus Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 And i am also a little dissapointed because when i asked for user solidarity everyone shouted..."give him to the wolves".......... :) You were a man ahead of your time, Buffos, and were definitely underappreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted December 5, 2005 Author Share Posted December 5, 2005 Well the latest news is that they will be releasing RC2 by 6PM today, but that is unofficial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bricklyne Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 ....check the download page. Apparently more stable. (Less crashes, simple installation, improved mtl. editor preview). Physical sky is still not working, so no exteriors yet. Another update is scheduled for either midweek or Friday. If they can maintain this pace, then there's an outside chance they just may be able to actually release a final version before 2006. (I wouldn't count on it, though) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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