Devin Johnston Posted December 16, 2005 Author Share Posted December 16, 2005 I think the belief is that the engine that was in the RC's was still being developed; they thought that it would lead to somewhere but apparently it was imposable. So they apparently had another version of the engine being developed at the same time, it could have been less developed that the RC engine and that's why it wasn’t released. I think it was just NL's way of buying time while they got it working so as to not aggravate the customer base, I guess it didn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJLynn Posted December 17, 2005 Share Posted December 17, 2005 What I don't understand is if they have many versions and 1 works... Why does everyone have the other one? Were RC's 1-4 the ones that were close but not quite right & they just wanted to make sure they didn't work until they whipped out the real working one? I think they had several tries at the implementation with different algorithms, and what we've had is one they knew wasn't good, but was the most functioning thing they had at the time that worked with the material system they were introducing. The impression I get from Victor's post is that the core he's talking about is what they've been wanting to do, but since they screwed up making the scheduling promises they put themselves in a position where they absolutely had to release something in early December, and the real thing didn't work yet, so they released what they had. My guess would be that what they had was a quick hack they were using to test the materials and UI, some part of which they couldn't get to work with the beta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted December 17, 2005 Share Posted December 17, 2005 You know... if two rendering engines are both unbiased, both physcially correct, they should both give you the exact same result.... Would you stop being so right? The really funny thing is no-one (that I have seen, anyway) has made that rather obvious observation on the NL forum. The place has devolved into a pitched battle between believers and heretics. Yet I'm still posting the occasional barb myself. Why is the gutter so inviting some times? This latest post by NextLimit marks the end if they do not come through in fairly dramatic positive directions within about a week. Time's up, pencils down. What have you got? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dworks Posted December 17, 2005 Share Posted December 17, 2005 Would you stop being so right? The really funny thing is no-one (that I have seen, anyway) has made that rather obvious observation on the NL forum. The place has devolved into a pitched battle between believers and heretics. Yet I'm still posting the occasional barb myself. Why is the gutter so inviting some times? This latest post by NextLimit marks the end if they do not come through in fairly dramatic positive directions within about a week. Time's up, pencils down. What have you got? yep - of course both terms (unbiased and physically correct) have more to do with 'marketing' than with anything else. on the other side it's a (at this point more or less serious) attempt to write a rendering engine which comes very close to what a photographic camera sees. the obvious next step will be to render directly to our brains simulating the human eye - but be careful when you buy any licences before the product is full tested Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Nichols Posted December 17, 2005 Share Posted December 17, 2005 yep - of course both terms (unbiased and physically correct) have more to do with 'marketing' than with anything else. on the other side it's a (at this point more or less serious) attempt to write a rendering engine which comes very close to what a photographic camera sees. I would not really say that. I would say that they look different than most. I would also say that it forces most people to have the same style and look. Every render looks like a maxwell render rather then Joe Cool Artist's render. Lets look at a render I did for work... No unbias rendering, no GI, not even raytraced shadows. It does not look like a maxwell render, but IMHO it is fairly photorealistic. * edit: Some props also go out to the talented comper I worked with on this shot. the obvious next step will be to render directly to our brains simulating the human eye - but be careful when you buy any licences before the product is full tested You don't want to do that, What your eyes sees, and what yur brain thinks it it sees are actually two very different things. You fov would be insane, your focus woudl be crazy, and if you did an animation, you would pretty much throw up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted December 17, 2005 Share Posted December 17, 2005 [Maxwell DTB (direct-to-brain)] if you did an animation, you would pretty much throw up. A few years ago I got some stereo glasses to use while playing the TonyHawk Pro Skater game (since I'm too damned old to skate anymore). Pretty nauseating, 20 minutes and I needed to lie down and call a Psyciatrist. Oh, by the way, Chris--is that the full-frame render aspect ratio for that production still? What format is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Nichols Posted December 17, 2005 Share Posted December 17, 2005 Oh, by the way, Chris--is that the full-frame render aspect ratio for that production still? What format is that? We rendered at the 2.35 anamorphic, but we actually had to render oversized on X we had to reaply the lense warping in post to match the camera lense on set. Most of the type of movies that I work on are 2.35 (action movies). But these days, many movies have us render larger (in y) then 2.35, closer to 1.85. They project the movie at 2.35, but have some extra info on the bottom. That way when they go to DVD and format to 16:9, they don't loose as much on the sides, the grab the little extra that is done on the top and bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted December 18, 2005 Share Posted December 18, 2005 I think things are deteriorating rather quickly on the Maxwell forum, and by inference, Maxwell itself. I added a post to a new thread there where a Mac user asked how to contact NL for info on the OSX version of MWR. The post vanished. Odd, though I typed it on a different computer than this one. So I posted a new one, more to-the-point than the first but it, too vanished. A third sarcasticly pro-NextLimit is still there. Removing posts that aren't abusing or threatening? What does this mean, besides that the NL forum is not a happy-happy-joy-joy place? It means that the time for 'customers' to stop posting angry and start acting angry is here. I've had enough. It's time to see about putting these jokers out of business. It's too bad, the almost-working beta looked good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackb602 Posted December 18, 2005 Share Posted December 18, 2005 I've had enough. It's time to see about putting these jokers out of business. It's too bad, the almost-working beta looked good. I noticed that your posts were deleted too. Their combination of censoring criticism and refusing any direct (i.e. e-mail) contact with their paying customers is really disturbing. I don't know if this legally constitutes fraud, but it sure smells like it to me. I'm torn, because I very much want to be able to use this fabulous new rendering engine, but I am not convinced that it will ever exist in a usable form. As of now, I am leaning heavily toward wanting my money back. I'm starting to think that I would actually prefer to give $1000 to a future NextLimit that delivers and acts ethically than to let the current NextLimit hold on to my $400. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yog Posted December 18, 2005 Share Posted December 18, 2005 the NL forum is not a happy-happy-joy-joy place? No kidding. Of those users polled, approximately 1/3 want their money back. I've never seen the like. I wont be seeking my money back, but I certainly wont be buying another product from Next Limit. It's not about the product being late, but instead because of the really shoddy and disrespectful way they have been treating their users over the last six months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted December 18, 2005 Share Posted December 18, 2005 I noticed that your posts were deleted too. Thank you for posting that. Even though I was certain the posts had been deleted, there was still a doubt sitting in my mind that maybe I had screwed up the posting, and was wrongly accusing NL of removing them. Now I'm sure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Msamir Posted December 18, 2005 Share Posted December 18, 2005 Just see the huge difference between the replys of the moderator to Jackb602 and to Resu after mentioning the abuse email in the same thread and that NL has to respond in 72 hours, even tom said he's going to make it his first priority ! EDIT:I guess this is the longest thread in the history of cgarchitects forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted December 18, 2005 Share Posted December 18, 2005 I feel so pathetic, like some loser stalking an old girlfriend who will no longer take my whiney phone calls. Trouble is...she still has my car. Maybe I'll 'get a life' for Christmas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted December 18, 2005 Author Share Posted December 18, 2005 I really can't believe we've gotten to this point, it's like a bunch of crazy people have taken control of NL. It's almost like they want this thing to fail. By the way Christopher I loved Stealth, that movie rocked and so did the CG! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_PopArt Posted December 18, 2005 Share Posted December 18, 2005 Even more mind bending is the few people who replied on the forums to some of the people asking for OSX release info saying more or less, 'switch to windows'...Or something along the lines of "well the RC's sucked why would you want them anyway?" Total craziness: NL led people to believe the OSX release for the RC's would coincide with the windows release. They then stated that it would come out on december 16th, and never mentioned otherwise. I've just noticed now that one of the moderators has mentioned that he has no vague idea when it will come out... Cancelling posts by people asking for an OSX release date is unacceptable too, because NL's behavior in this case is clearly fraudulent... Totally unacceptable - NL & the forum are on their last legs...If RC5 is'nt a VAST IMPROVEMENT over the beta (and there's no reason to believe it will be looking into all of the doubletalk on Victor's latest post) - the ship will go down... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Nichols Posted December 18, 2005 Share Posted December 18, 2005 By the way Christopher I loved Stealth, that movie rocked and so did the CG! I am glad you thought the movie "rocked." It bombed at the box office almost to the Maxwell degree (to be a little more on topic). One of the best parts of working on that movie was Rob Cohen (the director), think what you may of his movies, he is so much fun to work with. If you get a chance and get the 2 disk DVD, check out the making of the documentary on disk 2. I get a taste of his personality (minus all the colorful yet funny language) Rob made it a point of trying to remember many of our names (maybe around 400 of us in VFX), and even remembered some of our birthdays and stuff. Night and day from most directors that don't even acknowledge your presence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted December 18, 2005 Share Posted December 18, 2005 Night and day from most directors that don't even acknowledge your presence. Quite on-topic. Its the personal touch, or lack of it, that makes the difference. Communicate with people, your customers for example, and problems can be dealt with without a lot of anger and hurt and disappointment. The same bad situation will feel totally different based not on the situation but how the people involved interact. Maybe we should rent Stealth and just watch the 2nd disc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Nichols Posted December 19, 2005 Share Posted December 19, 2005 Maybe we should rent Stealth and just watch the 2nd disc. I would recommend that... things to watch on it: - The insane gimble - The amazing interactive lighting system - Rob Cohen being fun and entertaining - How to set up an insane pyro shoot with real live people and full sized cars - Me, for around 2 secs, in the background, working Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dp Posted December 19, 2005 Share Posted December 19, 2005 chris big props for the cgi on stealth despite the mtv video meets flight of the navigator story the cg and the concept designs for the craft were fantastic - don't know if they could fly but then look at a f117 maxwell.............. nl had my money in may but seeing the product then was too slow for anything serious i sat and waited - and im still waiting looks like i missed lots but i have not had any hair loss or sleep loss and it seems to shaping up that i'll be in the looking for a refund camp however on timescales i also for my sins use art renderdrives and the long promised gi soloution ( i had the first si - secondary illumination shaders - on test four years back but the shipping version due this past october is on a still on a beta cycle and some way still to go - seems dealing with code is sometimes akin to the boy plugging dam with a finger and the leak gets larger and moves somewhere else although it has cost me ££$$ it's not been that much and lord knows i have spent more on s/ware now sat on a shelf because a better mousetrap came along or it won't work with xp/nt/95 etc so in the meantime i shall watch and wait (with some but not too much intrest) oh and ernest you are never to old to skate....... http://www.middle-age-shred.com i still sneak out at night although a mortgage kerbs you doing the more silly stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aksel Posted December 19, 2005 Share Posted December 19, 2005 What makes me angry is not so much the 'development went completely wrong, we screwed it!'-thing, but the denial afterwards. Selling people a more or less experimental technology labeled as alpha is not unfair imho. But if you notice you cannot make it, it should be just the most normal thing to do to tell your customers and ask them if they want to stick or would like their money back. Worst: NL is still advertising on their website as if the engine is working and fully featured (out now, last chance, linux/pc/mac, bla bla). Meaning they are still today luring people into a completely shredded development taking their money, which is called fraud. I wrote to them asking they should better take off the advertisement as its just against facts. I got a very quick* personal reply by them which was indeed friendly and acting surprised asking me what exactly i would mean. I repeated my request, and, if you look right now, the frontpage is still making the same wrong announcement. To me this looks like a game of Poker in which NL actually know they got nothing more too loose (no working engine - paying back all preorders would just vaporize them right away) and they are playing accordingly. edit: * probably quick because i am labeled as 'journalist' in their db as i wrote an oftenly read article on maxwell this spring in a magazine. i heard many other customers got their problems with getting quick replies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted December 19, 2005 Author Share Posted December 19, 2005 I'll definitely be picking up the Stealth DVD, there's just something about kick ass jets and smoking hot chicks (Jessica Biel) that makes me want to watch! Anyway I just am sick of all this mess, I hope NL gets it right with this RC5 and saves the sinking ship but I'm just not sure where all of this is going. I wonder if they are still planning on releasing something on the 22nd? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Nichols Posted December 19, 2005 Share Posted December 19, 2005 Selling people a more or less experimental technology labeled as alpha is not unfair imho. Never tried the software and don't know much more than what is being talked about, but Alpha is the correct label for what was first released. Actually Alpha is the correct label for what is currently released. Alpha - should be software that has come out of the conceptual stage, is "working" with many missing features, and many known bugs. This is ment for special users to test out the software in its current state and sniff out bugs. Beta - sould have all the features that the programmers intended to have, and still have some known bugs. Last stage of bug hunt. Release Candidate - all know bugs are addressed, users use the software on big projects to give it the final ok in terms of bugs. Point release - certain bugs that were not fixed well are fixed again, and new strange bugs that come up along the way are fixed. The problem began as follows: 1 - They charged users for Alpha software. That is INSANE. There is no garantee that they will be able to get all the pieces working. Public of close alpha would have been fine. Don't charge for it. 2 - People bought it!!! Sorry, but it had to be said. I can't believe you guys bought alpha software. Why did you do it? Was it to save an extra $300, cause it ended up costing you guys a LOT more. BTW, I have a bridge I would like to see ya. After that, it set in motion a marketing nighmare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanSpaulding Posted December 19, 2005 Share Posted December 19, 2005 The problem began as follows: 1 - They charged users for Alpha software. That is INSANE. There is no garantee that they will be able to get all the pieces working. Public of close alpha would have been fine. Don't charge for it. 2 - People bought it!!! Sorry, but it had to be said. I can't believe you guys bought alpha software. Why did you do it? Was it to save an extra $300, cause it ended up costing you guys a LOT more. BTW, I have a bridge I would like to see ya. On point. Especially #2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted December 19, 2005 Author Share Posted December 19, 2005 2 - People bought it!!! Sorry, but it had to be said. I can't believe you guys bought alpha software. Why did you do it? Was it to save an extra $300, cause it ended up costing you guys a LOT more. BTW, I have a bridge I would like to see ya. After that, it set in motion a marketing nighmare. Christopher, I know many people have asked this question, I suppose the simplest answer is that the way it was presented on the Maxwell website made me believe that the full version was only a few months away. It also made it that more attractive that they were giving it away at a 60% discount. I'll be the first to admit that I was naive in believing their advertising; I've never been involved with any software that wasn't already on the market so alpha/beta software was totally new to me. Sure you can say I was stupid for doing it, but at the time I had no reason to question the intentions of NL, I believed them when they said Maxwell 1.0 would be released in July. Now looking back I believe NL has been engaged in less than reputable advertising from the very beginning, maybe they needed the cash to continue development, or maybe they actually believed they would have a full version relatively soon. What ever the case I feel now that we were fooled into purchasing something that was not really there and they used our mass inexperience with software development to their advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aksel Posted December 19, 2005 Share Posted December 19, 2005 2 - People bought it!!! Sorry, but it had to be said. I can't believe you guys bought alpha software. Why did you do it? Was it to save an extra $300, cause it ended up costing you guys a LOT more. BTW, I have a bridge I would like to see ya. sure you got a point here. still, i think thats not immoral. for me it was just like raising venture capital: a company promotes their technology and ask you to join in if you think it might be successful. hey, i lost far more than $300 on nvidia stock, which is basically the same thing. btw, i dont think its lost money, i did a tiny job with it and went out +/-0. but the thing which happened later is far worse than buying an alpha. chris, show the bridge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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