hockley91 Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 I am going to work for another architectural firm starting in January. Everything was great. I showed them my 3D work and my CAD skills. They noticed that the 3D work was done on the side. They said they don't want anyone moonlighting. They would make my work worthwhile for me by giving me bonuses for the 3D projects. Where I am currently working, we are free to do outside work....no question. Everyone does it, just as long as it doesn't interfere with the day job. Anyway, do any of you work for a firm that does not allow outside work? Do you still moonlight once in awhile? Just needed some advice on what to do, because the extra money is great for me and my family.... Adam Hockley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carloscristerna Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 thast not good, you can do with your free time whatever you want to....I do stuff in the side, and my bosses now about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Homeless Guy Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 i think most firms except the fact that in architecture/illustration people are going to moonlight. most of the firms i know simply put a policy in place that you can not compete with the firm, or work in a way that causes a conflict of interest. case in point, and this is a true story. a person working for another firm was hired by us to build a physical model. the person decided to build the model in the office where he worked after hours using his firms equipment and space. his firm fired him when they found out. not only was he using there equipment for this project, but both firms were going afte the same project. it was poor thinking on his part. ...and you can not use office equipment, be it computers, phones, or printers to do your sidework. i doubt there policy holds much ground as long as you are not showing up late for work, or blowing off your obligations to the company. ..if you need to work overtime for you company, they are not going to want to hear that you can't because you have a side project obligation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCAD Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 They should not dictate what you do in your spare time. Providing the work (projects) you do are divorced from normal working hours there should not be a problem. In fact it would benefit your employer as we are all increasing our skills in 3d and by doing the extra work would enhance your skills. I work freelance and my clients know I do other work....ie shoe shops, jean shops, telephone retail outlets and private health insurance outlets. I ensure there are no conflicts of interest and I do not take on work from companies that are in the competetion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbowers Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 Adam, Tough situation but i agree with the comments from everyone else. My firm knows i freelance and in fact they want me to. I design a lot of high end residential work but the client usually can't foot the $10,000 or more design fees that my firm will charge them. My firm will then tell them that i personally can do it for 1/3 the cost. I've done dozens of projects this way. Personally, i would keep looking for a new prospective employer. I once interviewed with a company who posed the same dilema to me and i told them to stuff it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sawyer Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 The last firm I worked for had in writing that no employee could work in archi related pursuits on the side. I talked with them and they were fine with my 3d work on the side and ended up refining the manual to state "No competing archi work". I don't think this is uncommon, but its it gives me an uncomfortable feeling I don't like having someone telling me what to do with my time. I even worked one place where the boss was upset that a drafter had a paper route. You may be able to talk with them and I would suggest at least trying to negotiate something. I don't know about your situation but I have a lot of money in my equiptment & I would really not like being told I cannot use that. That would be as much a consideration as the loss of revenue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 When I was helping run an arch Viz department here in town, we allowed people to do outside work provided there was no conflict of interest. We left it to the discression of the employees to decide what was not a conflict of interest. Ultimately that did not work well becuase people would end up using company time, computers, software to do the projects at lunch and after hours, and the projects themselves became a bit of a gray area over what was in conflict. If I were to do it it again I would likely not allow it either if the freelance work is the same industry as the company you work for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sawyer Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 My situation was frustrating because I had better equiptment than the office so I could do a better job through SFR than my day job. When I quit the day gig I was amazed to see a job that took a day at the old office now took me much less because I had a better set up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 When Frank Lloyd Wright was young he worked in the office of Louis Sullivan. He was not allowed to moonlight. But people started noticing that a bunch of new houses in Oak Park looked awfully good, in fact....Wright was fired from his last (maybe only?) job. Is sub work for another illustrator moonlighting, or only when you do the whole job? What if its design (what your employer does) vs. architectural illustration, which they likely do not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanSpaulding Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 I tried this and it was seen as competition...that I could be running it through the company to help pay my salary. I would have LOVED it tho as we had a client turn down a 9-image, 13 building render job for $12,000. He wanted it for $5,000. I would have done it for $5,000. I could use $5,000 for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Vestal Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 I have employees. I do not mind side work to a point. I also encourage employees to bring in jobs. When they bring in a new client, the employee gets all profits, minus an agreed fee for my costs (hardware, software, rent, ect ect) and my time when I communicate with client. They are similar to a subcontractor. Employees are happy to get the extra $ and the company benefits by increased exposure. Sometimes they just take the one time bonus. This has worked well since I hired employees. (edited for spelling) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinice Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 I know a lot of companies do not like people working on the side. The reason range from unnecessary jelousy to practicality of management as Jeff pointed out. If your company tell you not to moonlight, my advise is to be discreet about it. Even if a company have official non monlightling policy, most will turn a blind eye as long you don't do work for the competition and be discreet about it. What not to do, in order of seriousness 1. Work for the competition 2. Use any of office facility or office time. 3. Dealing with client from office even if it is after office hours. If you have to take a call, step outside the office or go to the smoking area. 4. Negative effect on your productivity and commitment to office tasks. This is difficult to define, so use your judgement. 5. Talk to co-workers about your outside work. If you take care of the above, you should be fine 90% of the time. If your company is the 10% that actively try to dictate what you can or cannot do in your free time, it is time to look for alternatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesTaylor Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 If the job you've been offered is better salary / work etc i'd take it. If they don't want you to do any outside work in your time, nod, smile and agree thats the way it has to be and then just do it anyway! As has already been said, make sure you don't use company time / equipment and that your work for the comapny is always upto scratch and obviously don't tell them about projects your working on! At the end of the day IMHO the only reason they don't want you working on outside jobs is so there is more money available to line there own pockets with.....in essence they are looking after themselves, so i think it follows that the right thing to do is to look after yourself. my 2 cents worth anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnold Sher Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 this is a tricky one as i've have been on both side of the fence. I know that when you are an employee making extra money is always an added blessing and it is extremely difficult to say no to... In saying that i have my own company now and have people working for me and i do have a problem with people working on the side to make money. It is not just about interference with your day job or using office equipment, it is also about the skills that they've picked up at work to make them what they are today. They are using the intellectual property that the company has invested into them by spending money on various courses, that is of issue. The way we've approached it is to allow the guys to work on the projects that they bring in the office during office hours and give them finders fee on top of their salaries. That way we encourage employees to bring in work while we retain the clients as well as quality of work that we can control. As for the comment above above lining pockets from the gentleman above... This is the business that i've personally mortgaged my house on and invested everything financially into it order to do it so i feel rather overprotective about it... I do not necessarily think that every boss out there is in it just to enrich himself, i'd like to think that we are all in the same boat and we all should reap the benefits together.. That is my two cents worth... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdos00 Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 I agree with a lot of the comments above, however, I think you have all overlooked a serious issue at hand in a lot of Architecture firms. I don't know about you guys, but the last firm I worked for (I am currently in negotiations to take a job with a 200 man firm in Sacramento) had stipulations in their liability insurance coverage that expressly forbids employees from "moonlighting". In the Architectural industry companies can be held liable for mistakes in building designs and potential injury/death of people caused by an employee. Therefore, even though the employee isn't using the name of the firm on the work, the office still has some liability in the design/execution of the drawings. Because of this the company I just left had a standing rule, moonlighting=firing! No joke about it. I understand it may be different in viz/illustration however, if you are working directly for an Architecture firm, be aware, and respectful of issues you may not be aware of or understand. There is a lot at stake for these firms. Just my two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesTaylor Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 I can see that you would be overprotective about the business you have built and invested in - its is natural to be. the thing i don't like is that good employees have also invested a lot of effort in gaining the skills they have which make you money. I don't like it when people say "it is also about the skills that they've picked up at work to make them what they are today". That is inferring that without the business they would be nothing - when infact without the staffs commitment and passion for the work they carry out the skills they learn etc. the business would be nothing. I feel that there is an overpowering sense of we pay your wages you do as i say, when from the other side of the coin it is the employees who produce the work that earns the company money..... so should the company not do as the employees want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IC Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 It seems to me people are annoyed that their employer dictates what they can or can't do in their free time but it's not that simple. When you sign a contract with a company there's expected to be some loyalty involved. This loyalty normally excludes you from helping the progression of other companies, especially the direct competition. Saying that, we all do it and everybody knows we do. Discretion is the key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesTaylor Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 There is loyalty involved.....it is paid for 8 hrs a day. Again its seems to be a one sided argument in favour of the comapny. The company is saying we don't want you to work for anyone else so we can better ourselves and make more money, but in doing so they are stopping their employees from having that same opportunity of bettering themselves and making more money. I'm not having a go but just feel strongly about the unrecognised efforts and difficulties faced by the employee whilst the bosses rake in the cash. I spent a lot of time and effort gaining skills and educating myself, i didn't do this for a company i did this for myself, therefore i don't feel it is someone elses right to tell me what i can and can't do with it. Like i said, i'm paid 8 hrs a day to use those skills to aid a comapny, however i'm not paid for the remaining 14hrs a day not to use those same skills......... I agree with iain tho evryone does it - Discretion is the key......but it shouldn't have to be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dp Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 what you do outside of work is your affair in the past when i worked in a offices i would get the odd phone call over time this built up so at one office i had a falling out (i'm a non smoker but i'm not one to point fingers at those who needed the half hour of a working day for smokes outisde) my 3d work and architectural work are two different spheres and very little cross over aside from time in the day for 2006 i have been talking to a few companies about consulting on architectural work - some are small minded and can't accept part time others can't get the head around i do other work too these are people who i will not waste my time with seriously have been where you are considering i can tell you most employer promises are empty as i said at the start once out side the 9-5 it's your own time i'd keep freelancing but use a seperate mobile for example make sure that anything you do is off company time and of course don't sign any contract that will cramp your style it's a jungle out there so always carry a knife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hockley91 Posted December 21, 2005 Author Share Posted December 21, 2005 Wow, what a wonderful amount of replies and insight into your own experiences. That was what I was hoping to get from you guys. I can see both sides pretty much. What I do, the 3D imaging, I don't believe would impact the landscape architecture and architectural entities of this firm. In dollar amounts, what I do barely makes a dent into projects that cost into the millions of dollars. I just had another interview yesterday with a large architectural firm who are looking for a 3D imaging person. I actually was their yesterday as a consultant, but they cornered me before I left and asked me if I would be interested in a full time position with them. I've always worked for small firms and this is a large firm. I've also enjoyed freelancing, but this sounds like a good opportunity for steady 3D work. I'm in a conundrum now. I have family obligations and health obligations I need to look at. Health insurance is a big issue for me, since I have a pre-existing condition now :-( I don't know what their moonlighting rules are, but I'll find out next week. Thanks again for your insight! Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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