When to expect a roadmap?

[Ernest Burden III]

Didn't NextLimit tell us a few weeks ago that they would provide a roadmap? Any thoughts on when to expect that, or, when to give up on it?

 

My plan to deal with the Maxwell mess has been to get:

 

1. a policy statement on refunds (which I believe will stop much of the noise by letting the relative few who want out a way to get out without involving lawyers)

 

2. a roadmap of where we are, where we still have to go (like Mac-land, for example) and a timeline for the trip. How can you know how long is too long if you don't know what remains to be done?

 

3. deadlines, real deadlines, after which lawyers will be employed.

 

 

I got nowhere with (1), but it sounded like (2) might happen on its own. Hum.

[nhayes]

My plan to deal with the Maxwell mess has been to get:

...

3. deadlines, real deadlines, after which lawyers will be employed.

I got nowhere with (1), but it sounded like (2) might happen on its own. Hum.

 

Please don't ask NL for deadlines that's where it all went wrong to start with ;-) NL should just stick to saying expected first half (H1) 2006 etc. Software development is too unpredictable for precise deadlines.

 

I would be very surprised if anyone goes down the legal route, its just too much hastle and expense... M~R costs what ~$395 or ~$495 (depending on when its was purchased)... imagine just sepnding a few hours of your time preparing material for such a case... that would cost more than the price of the software :-)

 

-neil

[Ernest Burden III]

Please don't ask NL for deadlines that's where it all went wrong to start with ;-)

 

No, they told us things and that was our excuse to sit back and keep repeating 'everything will be fine'. We may have to impose some deadlines. If we do not, we will probably never see a finished product. No one wants to upset NextLimit, like some god who will shower us with wonder, if only we worship with all our hearts. Waiting and hoping has gotten us exactly to where we are. More will get us more of what we have now.

 

Software developement is unpredictable, but how hard is putting together a complex urban rendering? Its a thousand little things. What helps is a list of sub-tasks (a roadmap) and a client imposed deadline, at pain of poverty. That's what works.

[Devin Johnston]

I've been calling for a road map for months now, most of the time no one pays attention but it is definitely something that needs to be done. The problem now is the total lack of accountability and loyalty to the customer.

[muzzy]

I agree with you Ernest, they keep saying .. it will be fine, RC5 will be soon, 1.0 will be soon... which is annoying they are keeping the expectations so high, keep promising... so stupid (imho)

 

I don't think giving a road map is a right thing to do... Roadmap, will harm, rush their working schedule as did....

 

All software developers gone through the same stage and learned... I believe next limit will learn the same policy.. ...."it will be released when it is done"

 

Look at vray last two years 1.5 will come, even though they said this FALL 2005 at sigraph.. still nothing...

 

Check Splutterfish, they said it Brazil 2.0 release Fall 2005. Now they say, it will be released whenever it will be....

 

Same as CEBAS final render....

[leoA4D]

Until there is a way to get NL to talk, voluntarily or involuntarily, roadmaps, refunds, etc. cannot happen.

 

Mass angst, complaints and shunning over at NL's forum has had no real or lasting effect to date. (It's the crocodile roll.)

[Ernest Burden III]

Until there is a way to get NL to talk, voluntarily or involuntarily, roadmaps, refunds, etc. cannot happen.

 

What may happen is that a lot of people will get fed up and file complaints with their banks or EU authorities. Not this week, but maybe next that will start as a little snowball.

 

Other companies say 'it'll be ready when its ready' (why can't I say that to my clients?) but this case has become different. The difference is a pattern of lies and the taking of people's money. Without the money, they can take as long as they want and we can't do a thing except wish. But since they collected probably a few million dollars then they can be held to account.

 

What's interesting is that it looks like anyone who still believes they will eventually see MWR1.0 is willing to wait, wait and wait. However, once you see the outcome as a likelihood that you will never see a working product, then you call for the ax.

 

Going back to my earlier comments, being that we are investors in this product we have a right to demand a roadmap, even as we would not have that same right with a company like Cebas, who haven't taken our money yet. Refusal to compromise with us will be yet another clue that NL should not be trusted any longer.

 

I suppose the legal distinction between criminal and incompetent is 'intent'.

[STRAT]

must admit i'm a bit out of the loop as far as Maxwell releasing is concerned.

 

what's all the big hoo-har about? why are everyone so peeved off?

[ivox3]

Well i don't actually remember what was said .........,but i know we haven't heard a thing since. The userbase is definitely in the dark. I've quit wondering about it myself and have delved deeply into work and can't be bothered with it anymore. There's enough people around the forum applying pressure already. The only thing i know is that NL's strategy is that by delivering a good release ....all things will even out, but it's still rather baffling why the silence. I don't think all this talk about legality will have any immediate effects ........those type of investigations can take months and months to get rolling. In fact, it may even buy NL some more time. Still it's not a healthy thing to have floating around your image. If the legal thing does wreak havoc on the company, ...i'm going to be pissed at EveryBody (users/NL/the whole damn world). Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

The only real mistake NL has ever made was handing out dates on delivery. They should of postured from the sentiment .....'It'll be done when it's done' .......like other companies do and then ........plain old ----- got busy.

 

.........fingers still crossed.

 

BTW: .........you have to keep in mind, .......this isn't vaporware. Vaporware doens't produce betas like 1.2.2a MR. This alone should indicate that NL does have the intention to produce a superior product, albeit in a strange and mysterious way.

[Giovanni Scocchera]

Last news

 

Ciao, Jo

[nhayes]

No, they told us things and that was our excuse to sit back and keep repeating 'everything will be fine'. We may have to impose some deadlines. If we do not, we will probably never see a finished product. No one wants to upset NextLimit, like some god who will shower us with wonder, if only we worship with all our hearts. Waiting and hoping has gotten us exactly to where we are. More will get us more of what we have now.

Software developement is unpredictable, but how hard is putting together a complex urban rendering? Its a thousand little things. What helps is a list of sub-tasks (a roadmap) and a client imposed deadline, at pain of poverty. That's what works.

 

I disagree, the release of RC1 was in reponse to the huge amount of pressure imposed on NL by the community and look what happened. I accept the fact that the pressure imposed was deserved in response to the lack of communication from NL. I cannot foresee how a a client imposed dealine will work with such a diverse range of customers...who is going to set the date? you or me etc.?

 

I agree with you that a roadmap would be nice to see, but at the end of the day as NL will no doubt have no legal obligation to comply with it, it really will be meaningless.

 

-neil

[ivox3]

Hey Jo,

 

........how about that.

 

thanks much. ........guess i wasn't looking.

[leoA4D]

... the release of RC1 was in reponse to the huge amount of pressure imposed on NL by the community and look what happened. ...-neil

 

I don't want to sound nasty but, it is not that simple. Much preceded the RC1 and like what followed, RC2-RC4, etc., it was directly the result of NL's actions and lack of actions. How could it be the client's fault?

[nhayes]

I don't want to sound nasty but, it is not that simple. Much preceded the RC1 and like what followed, RC2-RC4, etc., it was directly the result of NL's actions and lack of actions. How could it be the client's fault?

 

I was not suggesting it was our fault, despite all the pressure all NL should have just come clean. Nonetheless, the point I was making was that I fail to see how forcing a company to release a product by date X will produce a good outcome.

 

-neil

[AdamT]

IMO if anything is to be forced down NL's throat it should be refunds and license transferability. Seems to me that should resolve all complaints; if you don't want to wait anymore, get a refund or sell your license, end of story. I agree it would be a waste of time to impose a release date on NL--they'd just dump some half-finished POS in our laps.

[Ernest Burden III]

I agree with you that a roadmap would be nice to see, but at the end of the day as NL will no doubt have no legal obligation to comply with it, it really will be meaningless.

 

No legal obligation, but users who were much more aware of what was happening and whether (or not) things more or less on track would be able to wait through a reasonable process. However, users left in the dark, lied to and generally disrespected are going to want to pull the plug on NL. That is the threat--large-scale disputed charges and regulatory complaints.

 

...who is going to set the date? you or me etc.?

 

I'll do it. If we don't see positive things happening each of us will set a date. I am fed up...now. Maybe today you say you'll wait, but three lies from now you snap.

 

The idea is for NL to supply a no-BS list of what remains to be done with estimates of time (we know they may change) so we have a set of checkpoints. In return (we know Nl does not want us to know anything) we hold off on actions against them based in anger and frustration. If we see NL get so far off-track or so far behind we may also decide its time for action.

 

The return policy is first, we can see how far that initiative has gotten...

 

Next is the roadmap and then some deadlines, the carrot is we wait without legal action, the stick is the legal action.

[Devin Johnston]

I disagree, the release of RC1 was in reponse to the huge amount of pressure imposed on NL by the community and look what happened. I accept the fact that the pressure imposed was deserved in response to the lack of communication from NL. I cannot foresee how a a client imposed dealine will work with such a diverse range of customers...who is going to set the date? you or me etc.?

Actually the release of RC1 was the result of Next Limits own self imposed deadline, which had been previously moved back from the months before. The Maxwell community simply made them live up to what they had promised. When it became painfully apparent that they had been leading all of us on about the capabilities and features of the new RC (White paper) that’s when the pressure was applied. This in my mind is exactly what is wrong with Next Limit; there is no quality control and no respect for the customers.

I agree with you that a roadmap would be nice to see, but at the end of the day as NL will no doubt have no legal obligation to comply with it, it really will be meaningless.

-neil

The road map is simply a gage for people to see how far along they are in development. All of the features that are spelled out on the web site must be included in the final version, and would be listed on the road map. Any additional features they choose to include can be listed as well, however there inclusion or exclusion should be noted so we know what to expect.

[nhayes]

The idea is for NL to supply a no-BS list of what remains to be done with estimates of time (we know they may change) so we have a set of checkpoints. In return (we know Nl does not want us to know anything) we hold off on actions against them based in anger and frustration. If we see NL get so far off-track or so far behind we may also decide its time for action.

The return policy is first, we can see how far that initiative has gotten...

 

Ernest,

 

I do support your idea of a roadmap with clear boundaries and it would be great if they would give users the opportunity to get a refund if they overshoot their self imposed time limits by a given amount... although, I personally do not recall any other software company offering such a thing.

 

-neil

[nhayes]

Actually the release of RC1 was the result of Next Limits own self imposed deadline, which had been previously moved back from the months before. The Maxwell community simply made them live up to what they had promised. When it became painfully apparent that they had been leading all of us on about the capabilities and features of the new RC (White paper) that’s when the pressure was applied. This in my mind is exactly what is wrong with .

 

This seems strange ot me. For example, if you have an internal deadline that you know you can't meet why would you keep to it if there was no external pressure from the community to release the product? Oh, well I'm sure some PhD student will write a thesis on such things at somepoint in the future..

 

-neil

[Devin Johnston]

The external pressure was the result of the self imposed deadline.

 

The real question that has never been answered is why does NL make the ridiculously short deadlines when they know they can't meet them? My answer to that is they do it so they can generate more revenue because I can't believe that in November with Maxwell being in the state it was in that they actually believed by December 22nd they would have a fully functional product.

[buffos]

Maxer this is not the case.

 

When i first read about Maxwell, i saw their site saying " March 15 Beta gui.." and final on June.

 

I dont think any user set those.

 

But ofcourse many users bought because of the timeframe.

I wouldnt buy if it said March 2006.

 

So if they did not want pressure, they should at least refund.

 

How do you expect a customer to pay and not demand what he asked for. This is insane. So the pressure was created by NL actions.

[Devin Johnston]

Buffos, I'm not arguing with you, I agree that NL created this mess them selves, I was simply saying that because of the deadlines NL created for them selves the customer base was putting pressure on them to live up to their word. I think it's unprofessional at least and criminal at worst for NL to have done what they did by creating one false release date after another, they only have themselves to blame.

[Ernest Burden III]

It's really bizarre. It's non-sensicle. Nutzo, kookie.

 

There was a cartoon I saw once that showed a man hammering nails into his knee, and body, labeled "a blind man commiting suicide methodically". NextLimit reminds me of that cartoon.

[Ernest Burden III]

Does anyone have a feature list from way back when most of us bought into Maxwell? While we may simply not get some things that were promised, its impossible to remeber what those things were. Memory fades with time.

[bricklyne]

The external pressure was the result of the self imposed deadline.

The real question that has never been answered is why does NL make the ridiculously short deadlines when they know they can't meet them? My answer to that is they do it so they can generate more revenue because I can't believe that in November with Maxwell being in the state it was in that they actually believed by December 22nd they would have a fully functional product.

 

 

I think it's pretty obvious at this point, following the RC(1-4) realeases, as well as the comments of the various developers/Mods/beta-testers slightly before and shortly after that, that they knew it would never be ready by any point in December. Even looking at the cobbled state of the RC's Studio ( especially RC1), you can pretty much tell in retrospect that it was something they put out hurriedly, to save face, and not necessarily because it had any chance of even remotely functioning at that point in time ( remember the whole bonanza at their site with the "final version out today", followed by the ludicrous 1 or 2am actual release). The deadlines, as ridiculous as they were ( and actually are; this includes RC5 - it ain't coming out this week, you heard it here first!) were merely for the sole purpose of keeping the user base's anger at a minimal level, or low enough not to hurt continual pre-sales at those specific points in time.

 

I mean, if they had to re-write the whole thing after the Beta, told no one about it at the time, and were still adamant that they were going to be able to release a working product on in October, then they have to be terrible at time management at best or seriously incompetent at worst. Either that or the more likely alternative that they knew it wouldn't be ready but kept the lies going to maintain sales.

 

Of course, now that the cat is out of the bag, and the CG community in general knows how deep of a cr#$hole NL is in, the sales aren't likely to climb or even maintain their pre-RCs level. And as such there's no longer any incentive to lie anymore, hence the reason they seem more forthcoming with the likely incapacities and expected inadequacies of RC5. There's no more incentive, nor reason to lie. Customer goodwill has mostly been lost, and there are few new ones the horizon or prospective, that are likely to be swayed either way until a final version release.

 

Can you imagine them stating shortly after the Beta release in June last year that the final version set for October would have problems with clipmaps, dielectrics, emitters et al, as well as having more than half the announced features missing, and still expect to generate sales and hype the way the anticipation of a final version release did?

 

They knew.

 

The really scary thing here is that there's more yet - and far worse at that - that they still aren't telling nor talking about. Even with their knew-found "honesty" and "open-communication" policy. This upcoming RC is going to let is know volumes, as to whether this project is dead in the water or not, down the road.

 

 

A Roadmap is a good idea. But I just fear that it might be a road to nowhere, and that NL are starting ( or maybe already know?) to realize this. Gosh, I hope I'm wrong.