AdamT Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 will it just take more time for users to learn or isn't there much to learn actually... The only things that are new are changes to Studio (yawn), and the new material system. Otherwise it's just the beta in sheeps clothing. If this was the M~R forum, A-Team members would hasten to point out that it's *not* the beta engine!! Well please, we know it's been tweaked a little so it's not byte-for-byte the same, but trust me--it's the beta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CALCULMENTOR Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Rs 1 For Me In My Rc Version......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomer86 Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 y mine also only have RS1 not RS1+ when i use my RC5?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJLynn Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 It says RS1 but it's RS1+. In that they've done work on RS1 since the beta so it uses the new materials, and some other minor edits - aside from that, RS1+ is pretty much RS1 (as the name implies). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ki_cz Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Some seriously interesting points have been brought up in this thread, so I figured I might as well toss in my 2 cents: - I still firmly believe that the fundamental problem throughout this entire process has been communication, and not necessarily the product released. Although RC1-RC4 were absolute jokes, they seemed to be forced releases that were essential to put out, simply because NL was completely unable to communicate what was actually going on. They were basically presented with 2 options: a) communicate to the user base that they were further behind schedule than anticipated, give reasons, and provide a reasonable date. or b) try to get away with releasing an incomplete, tossed together piece of software in an attempt to appease some of the users. The fact of the matter is that it appears as though no lessons have been learned between the releases of RC1 and RC5. Granted, mverta has taken it upon himself to provide more communication from NLs side, but there are still many fundamental questions that need to be answered. - will maxwell users ever be provided with the product that they were promised? - will the sunlight issue ever be resolved? - what kind of compensation (which was promised) will the users receive (or has this been forgotten)? - will users be forced to use the tedious, cumbersome, overbearing studio, or will plugins be fully developed? And if yes, WHEN? Which brings me to my second point, the studio. As you can see on the maxwell forums, there is definitely some people in support of studio and some people against. I challenge you to seriously consider the people that are *for* the idea of the studio that are using some of the more popular 3d programs. I simply can't imagine somebody using 3ds max and being content with the bloated software that they are now forced to use in order to get a render punched out. Projects that people work on constantly change, even during the testing process I know that I have to make tiny changes in the size of objects, lighting, placement, etc. It is absolutely idiotic to expect people to be satistied when they have to import/export/import/export several times before their scene is finished in order to get it rendered. I honestly believe that the people on the maxwell forums who say "well, the effect on my workflow really isn't that noticeable" are lying through their teeth. To actually say that you can't notice the difference in workflow going from beta to RC5 is an outright lie, it's cumbersome, bloated, and simply the result of too many promises that NL could not deliver on. What next? NL can deal with the studio issue in a lot of ways, but I personally have come up with 2 solutions that I think are viable: 1) slowly shift the focus from studio being an all-in-one rendering solution, to being a stand alone material editor with seamless integration into your 3d app of choice. The 3d earth with sun, while great, isn't exactly necessary, I'd rather be able to set hours/place etc. within 3ds max. Materials could be exported (or even better, dragged and dropped) from the stand alone app, to the material library in your 3d app. It seems to me that the primary problem is that it's nearly impossible to integrate the material preview system in current 3d applications. So why not have the stand alone, then drag and drop into your 3d app. Probably too much still for the NL coders. 2) just get the plugins finished already. No matter what anybody says, studio has a negative effect on workflow, get the plugins finished, not everybody is completely thrilled with everything NL releases and believes that any step is a good step, some people simply cannot sacrifice the extra time it takes to go back and forth ... just one person's opinion ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave davidson Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 some good points there mate but shouldnt you post that on the maxwell forums for them to answer (maybe they will (lol) ) P.S i to would like to do all from my native 3D app which is c4d ive invested a lot of my career with it and would like to use it further with maxwell rendering the solutions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 i to would like to do all from my native 3D app which is c4d ive invested a lot of my career with it and would like to use it further with maxwell rendering the solutions Same here. For better or worse I made a choice to base my work on C4D and have put in a lot of time to learn it, buy plugins, etc. The only other app I would use would be Maya, though now as an Autodesk product, I doubt it. I don't have enough hours in my life to keep learning new apps and approaches. 'Studio' is not the way to go, and its not the structure that I bought. If NL wants to have it as an alternative then great! But get the original plugs done, but especially C4D, first. But that isn't happening. I'm done with my last project so now I have some time to write. I have some things to write and I guess JM would prefer they not be posted here, so I'll be taking ice into hell, let's see how long it lasts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJLynn Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 FWIW, it looks to me like when they finally get this stuff sorted out (I know, I know) the approach I'd want to use is running MXST only to get at its material editor, saving out MXM files and loading those in a 3D app with plugin - it's already practically at that stage. I'm using MXST pretty much as a stopgap measure - it doesn't add that much value for me outside the material editor and with a complex scene it gets really, really slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 The reason I purchased Maxwell boils down to three things, first the stunning images I saw in the gallery, second the ease of use, and finally the ability to do all of these things from my native 3D app. All of the images in the gallery were created using a native material editor that didn't show a preview of the material being used, and it had no fancy BSDF. It all boils down to the fact that Maxwell Studio is something that is not desired or needed by most people who purchased Maxwell, it may have some neat features but in the end it is completely unnecessary. We all purchased Maxwell based on the promise of plugins for our 3D apps and it is most important for that to be their primary focus until a fully functional Maxwell 1.0 is released with all promised features. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ki_cz Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 ^^^ agreed, and not only that, but the great thing about maxwell at the start was the ease of use, plasic, metal, dielectric. So easy to use compared to the system now in my opinion ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJLynn Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Speak for yourself - one of the selling points for me was Sketchup compatibility, and the pre-Studio solution for the was an almost complete waste of time - and I don't think it's currently possible to get a Sketchup render plugin to the level of sophistication of Maxll and Cinemaxwell. (This is why they didn't come up with a catchy name for it like Cinemaxwell.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ki_cz Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 I'm definitely speaking for myself, but I definitely find the new material system way too much for my needs. The simplicity of the original system was great, of course, the fact that it was integrated right into 3dsm made it more appealing to me as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Studio is simply too complicated in its current form and as a result it has somewhat removed the ease of use factor that made Maxwell so attractive. I can only hope as they develop it that the material editor becomes more simplified and user friendly. Other than the material editor in Studio can anyone think of some reasons why Studio is better than your native app, it seems redundant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamT Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Coming from Cinema 4D, I can't think of a single reason I'd prefer to use Studio. OTOH, I do see how programs like SU and Rhino could benefit--given that NL isn't committed to doing complex plugins/integration. As mverta suggested, NL is trying to split the baby; instead of doing a really good job integrating M~R into 5-6 apps (i.e., Max, Maya, C4D, LW, SU, Rhino), they're trying to provide an external solution that will offer mediocre-to-poor workflow for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 The external solution is fine, but I would like to hold the NL feet to the fire of doing what they said they would when they took my money. Having it both ways is fantastic, just make sure we have it our way first. Who wouldn't say that? Me, me, mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 At this point, accessibility is secondary to me. There is still something weird about the engine. It still has that "video rather than film" quality that makes my stomach churn when I look at it. I couldn't care less if I had a first rate plugin or not from my app of choice if it's for a mediocre render engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 I couldn't care less if I had a first rate plugin or not from my app of choice if it's for a mediocre render engine. I guess we're all silently (except you, above) going on the assumption that the engine will render the way we expect, the way it did when we thought it worth risking our money on. That was the 'beauty' I was talking about when you re-posted your old flower rendering. I suppose we're assuming too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Absolutely Fran, that is something that they have also been avoiding. Mike keeps saying that the quality is there and there is nothing to worry about, but I've yet to see a direct comparison between RC5 and the Beta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imanobody Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 I've yet to see a direct comparison between RC5 and the Beta. Someone did a comparison of Beta, RC1, RC2, RC3, RC4, and RC5. You could say that RC5 was better then Beta in some ways, but Beta was still better overall (and still faster). I've seen nothing to convince me that RC5 is not the Beta with a new material system and GUI. RC5 is not the Beta, just as much as NL was not using MTL and had some totally new and top secret way of doing it's rendering. Today someone posted a blog of a guy doing the same type of renderer and it's images look just like Maxwell's. Also, he can't find a way around the same problems that Maxwell is having... imagine that. So much for the theory that Maxwell had some black box technology that was going to set the CG world on fire. It was just all Phantom Menace hype All NL had to do was not to promise any plugins or GUI (that is so 1998:rolleyes:) and make the SDK open source. Would hackers or warez users be using it to write plugins? Probably. But then NL would have a plugin for their software and didn't have to spend any time or money developing it. Someone please explain to me why I can go to an open-source site and they have a roadmap, CVS, blogs, forums (where you can actually talk to the developers), and constant releases.... and you didn't even pay a cent. But you pay money to NL and you get NOTHING but a old Beta, lies, and broken promises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Someone please explain to me why I can go to an open-source site and they have a roadmap, CVS, blogs, forums (where you can actually talk to the developers), and constant releases.... and you didn't even pay a cent. But you pay money to NL and you get NOTHING but a old Beta, lies, and broken promises. Slick marketing wasn't it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiskey Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 what's going on? i thought mverta's masterclass would be 45 pages long by now..i just ckecked..2 pages..duh..i also hoped NL would take their heads out of the sand again (as there aren't too many complaints, so the mood isn't as bad as it was from rc1 ro rc4)..even tom is more boring than usual (he misses 8etty i guess) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamT Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Mike's master class seems to be more of a remedial class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJLynn Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 He deletes a lot and it gets updated with post edits instead of replies - he's trying to keep it from going a lot of pages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 He deletes a lot and it gets updated with post edits instead of replies - he's trying to keep it from going a lot of pages. While the idea of mods slithering around in your posts seems creepy, I like the way he has taken to responding to a post within the post. I haven't read much of that thread. Is Mike still spending half his time saying 'I'm not allowed to talk about that'? Alright, its time to put an end to this farse. Telling us that our critical issues are v2 solutions is one straw too many for this camel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adehus Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 what's going on? i thought mverta's masterclass would be 45 pages long by now..i just ckecked..2 pages..duh..i also hoped NL would take their heads out of the sand again (as there aren't too many complaints, so the mood isn't as bad as it was from rc1 ro rc4)..even tom is more boring than usual (he misses 8etty i guess) I just think most people stopped caring. There isn't much complaining, but it doesn't seem like too many people are putting much effort into trying to get RC5 to work for them... probably why mverta's thread doesn't have too many questions to answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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