ki_cz Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 While I agree with the posts above, I do remember certain beta testers who said that they had seen great renders with the engine they were using prior to the RC1 release. All I'm asking, is if there were great results with these individual parts of the RC1 engine, why were no pictures provided aside from the 2 spheres with some carpaint on them? It just seems odd to me as the only results I've seen from RCs 1-4 have been subpar to say the least. I guess it boils down to frustration more than anything else. I have edited out anything that could be construed as bordering on slander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olbo Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Hmm, ... so now I wanna put my two cents into this. After those RC's I came to the conclusion, that not the core is the problem, but the user .... aaaaahhh. Yes we are the culprit! Well, don't take it personal anyone, but since the new materials got introduced there is a pretty hard way to get the results you like. Of course the new system is far from perfect, but it isn't that easy anymore. You can't choose plastic, metal etc. and then to click render. ............ NO! ............. At this time, you - the user - have to understand how real materials look like, how they feel ... until NL will provide some nice "presets" it won't be that easy anymore. Yes, the new material system rocks, if it comes to special stuff, but it is definately not that easy to achive the desired results. Take a look at this beautiful picture from Olivier Cugniet .... I like it a lot. Rendered in 2500x1667 and resized ... original thread IMHO this image has the beta feeling. And I really believe the main problem is the new material system and the user that was coddled with the simplicity of the old material system. From this point of view ... Maxwell isn't "that" easy anymore - unfortunately. Well, ... the architects don't like the new system, I can understand this. The movie people like the new system, I can understand this too ... and so on. I guess when Maxwell is final, there will be libraries of nice materials ... at least two years later. Well, ... I could talk a lot more, but I don't have to. take care Oleg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adehus Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 This is a warning. There have been allegations made here that border on slander. Please do not use this forum to make allegations against Next Limit or anyone else. Please do not presume insights into people's motives or relay unsubstantiated claims that could pose a liability to CGArchitect or its owner. Understand totally... point taken. Shame that CGArchitect's common sense policy is so (rightfully) restraining, while it's so hard to take any action against NL in it's flagrant disregard for the law and fundamental business ethics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Hmm, ... so now I wanna put my two cents into this. After those RC's I came to the conclusion, that not the core is the problem, but the user .... aaaaahhh. Yes we are the culprit! Well, don't take it personal anyone, but since the new materials got introduced there is a pretty hard way to get the results you like. Of course the new system is far from perfect, but it isn't that easy anymore. You can't choose plastic, metal etc. and then to click render. ............ NO! ............. At this time, you - the user - have to understand how real materials look like, how they feel ... until NL will provide some nice "presets" it won't be that easy anymore. Yes, the new material system rocks, if it comes to special stuff, but it is definately not that easy to achive the desired results. Take a look at this beautiful picture from Olivier Cugniet .... I like it a lot. Rendered in 2500x1667 and resized ... original thread IMHO this image has the beta feeling. And I really believe the main problem is the new material system and the user that was coddled with the simplicity of the old material system. From this point of view ... Maxwell isn't "that" easy anymore - unfortunately. Well, ... the architects don't like the new system, I can understand this. The movie people like the new system, I can understand this too ... and so on. I guess when Maxwell is final, there will be libraries of nice materials ... at least two years later. Well, ... I could talk a lot more, but I don't have to. take care Oleg Olbo, I like your image and maybe your right now that the new material editor is so much harder to use it's going to be harder to get good results out of it. I have to ask though do you think that we are headed in the right direction, being forced to use a material editor that is 10 times harder to figure out and use than its predecessor, does that make since. I mean, I could see the point if the renderings were 10 times better than they previously were, but from what I can see at best there equal to the beta. Let's talk about speed for a second, hasn’t it been proven that RC5 is twice as slow on interior renderings as the beta was, is that progress. I'm going to have to totally disagree with you, the problem isn't the user, from what I can tell the users who purchased Maxwell wanted a simple system not a complicated one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 I'm going to have to totally disagree with you, the problem isn't the user... I'm not sure that's what he meant. I think he was being ironic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olbo Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Hey Devin, well let me tell you, from my point of view NL is heading into another direction as they where heading at the beginning. At the beginning there was a simple system that had that freakin' cul-de-sac ... Maybe it wasn't enough for NL to have a render that had the sign "easy to use" printed on it. They, ... of course, want a wider market to get the money they need/want. So, zapzapzapppp the new material system got in place ... unfortunately it is not as easy as we would like it to be. I dunno (who actually does?) if this new system was in there mind from the beginning, or that it was something, that "the industrie" was looking for. Hopefully they implement some kind of basic/advanced mode, this shouldn't be to hard to implement and then everybody has the possibility to choose which system to use. And I have to agree with Ernest, ... at least to 50%. I meant it ironically and was serious at the same time. The problem is NL ... do you think they care about the "I want it simple people" ? Well they do! As they do about the "we need better materials, with procedural blah and, and ....". At the end they care about the possibility to make more money ... I guess that is what every firm cares about. Well ... some care about customers, some not. I have to ask though do you think that we are headed in the right direction, being forced to use a material editor that is 10 times harder to figure out and use than its predecessor, does that make since. I mean, I could see the point if the renderings were 10 times better than they previously were, but from what I can see at best there equal to the beta. Well, it is really hard to give you the answer to this question, because you know the answer already. To force somebody is never the right way, but sometimes there is no other way. *sigh* Let's talk about speed for a second, hasn’t it been proven that RC5 is twice as slow on interior renderings as the beta was, is that progress. Who knows how old the "new" core is, as far as I recall the "old" core was in developement for 3 years ... so maybe it is a progress, at least for the developers - unfortunately not so obvious for the users. I'm going to have to totally disagree with you, the problem isn't the user, from what I can tell the users who purchased Maxwell wanted a simple system not a complicated one. I totally agree with you here, ... I would love to see the easy way again, as I said, hopefully they'll implement a basic/advanced mode option. And again ... NL has a problem with there way they do there alpha, beta, RC way. We had this discussion bevor ... they are at alpha right now, just another horse they call core XYZ. As everybody should know right now the RS1+ core can not solve the problems they have ... this should do RS2 ... but who knows if or better when this will be. btw. ... it is not my pic, all props to Olivier Cugniet! nb: No offence at all, just want to say that with the new material system we, the users, have to get deeper into the BSDF thingy as we ever thought. Sorry, my english lacks a bit of the right words for such discussions. take care Oleg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 Mod mode on There is one comment by David that could be construed as inflammatory and possibly slanderous. As Jeff has mentioned, this is not the place for that kind of discussion. The other problem is with members making personal comments about other members. In this case, speculating about David's motives. That needs no explanation as it is a basic precept of professional behavior. Mod mode off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leoA4D Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 Egads, the NL forum is incredibly quiet. Me thinks this forum will follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJLynn Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 Oleg- I disagree that the users are at fault. RC's 1-4 were disastrous because the software was crap - Victor even admitted this and apologized for it. The "A-Team" had been using a new or significantly modified core, but not all the new parts together, and when NL tried to put it all together they had a release engineering nightmare. (This is why all software companies should have at least one release engineer - somebody whose full-time job is to babysit the code base, do the development builds, tell the programmers when their code is broken or doesn't work together, the kind of person who can say "you can't release an RC this week - these modules are broken and these don't work together." I don't think NL tried to BS us with it, I think they thought they had enough parts to make a working release and they ended up making a classic blunder - never start a land war in Asia, never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line and never promise a release when you haven't done a full build.) Hundreds of users tested the crap out of the first 4 RC's, and together we made about a dozen decent renders, most of those from the stripped-down "RS0" preview engine. RC5 is waaaaay better - mostly because they took out a bunch of stuff that didn't work and stopped trying to use whatever version of RS2 they had - that render is great, like a beta render with better materials, because it's done with the beta engine with a better materials system that Olivier knows how to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olbo Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 Oleg- I disagree that the users are at fault. RC's 1-4 were disastrous because the software was crap - Victor even admitted this and apologized for it. The "A-Team" had been using a new or significantly modified core, but not all the new parts together, and when NL tried to put it all together they had a release engineering nightmare. I have to agree! I was not on the way to blame the users, just want to point out, that we'll have to do more work at the materials as we had to do at the very beginning of maxwell. And as far as I can tell, you can achieve crazy materials that do not exist in reality and the render looks wired ... because you developed some new kind of stuff that you won't see in your environment. (This is why all software companies should have at least one release engineer - somebody whose full-time job is to babysit the code base, do the development builds, tell the programmers when their code is broken or doesn't work together, the kind of person who can say "you can't release an RC this week - these modules are broken and these don't work together." I don't think NL tried to BS us with it, I think they thought they had enough parts to make a working release and they ended up making a classic blunder - never start a land war in Asia, never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line and never promise a release when you haven't done a full build.) Hmm, ... have to agree, but I'm wondering who is the Release Engineer at NL. Hundreds of users tested the crap out of the first 4 RC's, and together we made about a dozen decent renders, most of those from the stripped-down "RS0" preview engine. RC5 is waaaaay better - mostly because they took out a bunch of stuff that didn't work and stopped trying to use whatever version of RS2 they had - that render is great, like a beta render with better materials, because it's done with the beta engine with a better materials system that Olivier knows how to use. I have to agree one more time, RC5 is way better then the others. I guess RC2 is the "The Undiscovered Country" ... but at the end, we'll have to learn, test and spend more time with the new materials then we ever thought. And if this is the case, ... I wonder why I should use Maxwell, if the "Setup-Time" isn't better/faster. If I need 3 to 4 hours to setup the new materials I dunno, ... The time will tell! take care Oleg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamT Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 I don't really find the material editor that hard to use, and it should be that much easier when more presets are available. I wish they'd put the time into more critical areas (speed, artifacts, sun>glass, clipmaps), but it is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olbo Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 I don't really find the material editor that hard to use, and it should be that much easier when more presets are available. I wish they'd put the time into more critical areas (speed, artifacts, sun>glass, clipmaps), but it is what it is. Hehe, ... well Adam, I wouldn't say that it is hard to use, but you have to get used to it. And as I said, it is pretty easy to do materials that do not exist in reality, ... so the render looks CG. I don't know how such a firm is doing the programming, but I would guess that the material system is programmed independently from the core, no ? What I mean is, that the core programmers don't do the material system. And do the RC1 programmers do the RC2 programming? Who knows ... hehe. Actually I don't know what is the best way to handle such a process ... take care Oleg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamT Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 It's a pretty small team, so I'd guess that everyone is more or less working on everything--with individuals concentrating in certain areas. I doubt you could separate material development completely from core development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olbo Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 New RC5 rendering from Olivier Cugniet ... take care Oleg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Very nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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