Paul Griger Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 Hi Jeff, I actually ventured away from the CG Architect forum onto the main page [there is more to the site than the forum, though sometimes I forget ] and saw your press release: http://www.cgarchitect.com/news/newsfeed.asp?nid=1003 It’s very well written and clearly explains why piracy is wrong in all it's forms and how it affects us and your website. Thanks for the professionally run site. We really appreciate it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nisus Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 I second this. Very good to take such a strong position! Very good position too! Shared information, tips and techniques only for legal pro's hopefully can outstand cheap illegal work... or am I daydreaming? Anyway, I support the road chosen rgds nisus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seismograph Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 eh.. sorry Jeff, but to compair our work,images, with software is wrong.... did you ever got money before you have started a job? So there have to be a way to use(or to be political correct "test") software before buying. I'm happy that autodesk is NOW offering special student versios to give youngsters a chance to learn the software, but only three years ago they sold OLD software to students.. this is the way a company is SUPPORTING the grow of the warez scene!!! Compairing piracy with stealing cars..hmm... Jeff, there should be other ways to lead ppl to serious business and if you got paid for that antipiracy ad then everything is ok. btw, i have fully understand your warning next to the inputfield and if there is no other way than to ban me ... cheerio and good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 to compair our work,images, with software is wrong.... did you ever got money before you have started a job?Yep, I have. I always have the option to ASK for it, which I usually don't, but its up to me to set the terms of my employment. But heres where the "I'm not making any money, so why should I pay them?" arguement shows it's slip: If you think that way, then it's only fair for the opposite to apply--when you make money with it you should pay for it, and when you make MORE money, you should pay a percentage of that, too. If you see the software publisher as a partner in your business then they must profit as you profit, since you tell them they get no money when you make none. Can't have it both ways. So there have to be a way to use(or to be political correct "test") software before buying.Most companies have demo versions, and those that don't usually have 'money back' guarentees. But if they have neither, it is not our place to decide their policies for them. Lack of a demo can be a reason to NOT buy a product, which hurts that company. I'm happy that autodesk is NOW offering special student versios to give youngsters a chance to learn the software, but only three years ago they sold OLD software to students.. this is the way a company is SUPPORTING the grow of the warez scene!!!Autodesk is a weird company. Their president once said something like 'they would rather have students using pirated Autodesk software than anybody else's'. They know that few legit companies will use pirated software because of the steep legal exposure. So they know that if the students learn ADSK programs, they will push their future employers to use ADSK apps. So yeah, they promote warez while blasting them. No one ever acused them of playing fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 hey seismograph I guess it goes without saying that I don't agree with you, but really I don't have the time or desire to argue with you or anyone for that matter. There a million and one excuses as to why piracy is "ok", and if you want to read them all check out CGtalk, there is an entire thread of warez monkeys that are of this camp. The bottom line however is professionalism and this site. It's my site, and I want it to be a professional site. Professionals in my opinion do not use warez and they do not support warez. Anyone can do as they please, far be it from be to stop them, but when it comes to CGarchitect, I run the show and I set the rules that I think are fair and condusive to maintaining a professional level of discussion and community. That simple. [ February 07, 2003, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: Jeff Mottle ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 I should add one more thing that I picked up the other day. There are studios that have literaly tossed a demo real in the garbage becuase the applicant was very vocal about their use of warez. They were a very talented artist, but becuase the employer had seen his posts on a forum about how little respect he had for using legal software he was not even considered. Studios don't want to take on a potential liability and people that openly condone the use of warez are just that - a liability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quizzy Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 seismograph, Why should we ban you?? You are using legal software... don't you... The only reason for me to delete your profile is because you didn't filled it in completely..could you?? cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Nichols Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 I'm with Jeff on his professionalism point. Ignoring the fact that warez is right or wrong, I think Jeff's main goal is to have a sight where professionals can have a forum (in the true sense of the word). It is, however, not an open forum, it is closed to professionals. What makes a professional... that is hard to argue, but I think you can at LEAST draw the line at someone that uses legal software. I am not saying that someone that uses warez is bad, but it doesn't make them professional. I am sure most people can agree with me there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seismograph Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Professionals in my opinion do not use warez and they do not support warez.What an illusion!!!! ..even when i went to my local dealer i will see warez; not because they have a stolen Autocad or 3dsmax. NO! It's the tiny imagebrowser he not have buyed or an archive programm he is running after 30days of evaluation periode or even a win OS he is running on several machines. Maybe there are some pro's who doesn't use warez at office ,but i'm sure most of those will get their copy for personal use at home without paying for it ...maybe not warez but maybe NFR versions; where is the difference? They were a very talented artist, but becuase the employer had seen his posts on a forum about how little respect he had for using legal software he was not even considered.That's serious business... the question is why a company (which hopefully have all the licenses ..HAHAHA..) is afraid to employ those ppl and let them work in the office on legal machines. ...maybe those Artists talking to much. *g* ok..that was fun now, but Jeff, i understnd what you try to do and it's partly ok for me... With my "something like" flaming i only want to avoid something like that: "I never use warez for my work and ppl who use warez are really bad and criminal!" ..If i would say something like that, i would suffering from selective amnesia. It's hypocritical and to be honest, this isn't professional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sawyer Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Curious to see a poll on this. I assume that everyone or most everyone uses paid for programs for their work. I paid for my seat of max and I am proud that I did, altho my wife will never let me forget that credit card bill, but I do wonder how many people have a 100% paid for, warez free computer system. I think that Jeff has a great point and I respect him for taking this stand and I think we should all thank him for helping us all out by upping the bar for profesionalism. Cheers Jeff! But I know of very few people who are 100% clean. Maybe it's not work related maybe just personal stuff. Another point just kind of an aside to this thread. I would love to hear how much other people who run their 3d work from their home how much they have invested in their set-up. I set my home office insurance at +-$20,000. And I can justify it all but I am wondering if this is ball park or low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 I do wonder how many people have a 100% paid for, warez free computer system. Damned few, I would think. I set my home office insurance at +-$20,000. And I can justify it all but I am wondering if this is ball park or low. Ballpart to low. This takes the subject 180 deg's, but what you need to look at in the policy is whether you have replacement coverage--$20K of computers today has a cash value of $4K in six months. If you had a loss must they pay to replace with CURRENT level products, or just yard-sale value of what you lost? Humm, I cannot immediately answer that question about my own policy. Could you prove what software you have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sawyer Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 OOOH. First I was going to say of course. But I was assuming theft & I just take out my reciept but Fire or other damage. Ok how do you deal with that? A safe? What I was aslo wondering is just how much people have sunk into their systems. Most people think I am nuts for the money I have spent & I know some of you guys have me dwarfed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doodler Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 I agree Legit companys should use, legal software, in all applications. However students and people who are trying to get into 3dsmax or viz cannot afford to go out and buy legal copies, so cracked copies is there only option, i am not ashamed to say i used it to learn max while working as a acad detailer, it was more intereting than drawing 2d bolts all day. discreet should drop there prices to make it freely available, computer arts in the UK give demos away each month of nearly all the visualising software on the market, for trial usage, other than this i dont know of any one else who does this. i dont see this as a problem but i do agree if companies are dealing with paying clients then they should apply the same proffessionalism to there office, as they do to there clients. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen gilbert Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 snip: However students and people who are trying to get into 3dsmax or viz cannot afford to go out and buy legal copies, so cracked copies is there only option, i am not ashamed to say i used it to learn max while working as a acad detailer, it was more intereting than drawing 2d bolts all day. :end snip err..3dsmax5 and character studio3 for students is £125 plus vat for a 15 month liecence...which works out at less than half a can of pepsi per day....if a student can't afford that he/she should get a paper round..or clean their dad's car out once every 2 weeks to pay for it. no excuse....not no more.... as to software i've bought... 3dsmax2.5 character studio2 upgraded to max 3,max4 and chacater studio 3 lightwave 7.5 paint & effect 2.2 combustion1 combustion2 a stack of plugins for max premire 5 u/g to 6 pinnicle dv500 5 pc's including a SGI 320 visual workstation which cost £150 plus vat! and my latest is lightscape which was a gift from a usa 3d studio owner... so i've spent quite a bit personally..never mind all the other software [corel,flashmx,dreamweavermx,freehand10......etc] steve g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamer Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 well, I guess I'll be the first guy from my area who would share his opinion in this topic, and I'll try to make my point of view as clear as I could: 1.I Totally agree with Jeff about having his site only for professionals who use legal software 2.I was just wondering how artists like me in this very low % developing countries like Egypt could use such a very expensive software done by the west side of the world, can u imagine that the average salary for a professional architect with about 4-6 years experience now days is about 2000$-2500$ a year...so I would just wondering how on earth does he suppose to use such a program like max with round fees of 3500$ 3.Just also wondering, does that mean that if a talented artist can't afford it then he can go away play away with his dreams of using max...just wondering 4.unfortuantly...here a very great % of architectural offices and companies don't use legal software...they don't even care about getting a part of there budget for legal software...so what the artists or the architects supposed to do with the company or office owner??? 5.finally...thanks god that I do work in a multinational company that do pay us in US dollars and know the importance of using legal software even thou from past 5 years they would not spend a penny on such things.... seems I'm lucky ain't so....!!! I just wish if any body would share me with opinions on how to handle such a problem in such a developing country and such a high % of warez software users with lead of course to such a cheap quality and very very very cheap fees. cheers p.s. it had come to my concern that perspectives can be done with about 100$ per shot...can u imagine how big is the problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seismograph Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 Stephen: err..3dsmax5 and character studio3 for students is £125 plus vat for a 15 month liecence... That's one way to avoid piracy, but remember: Autodesk offered max2.5 for students for ~200€/year while everyone else was working with max3.1 or later than with max4 ...(!) Stephen: and my latest is lightscape which was a gift from a usa 3d studio owner...i buyed LS and now AD doesn't offer upgrades... to use Jeffs example: you buy a car and after three years you don't even can give it to service if something broken because of a construction mistake ...you can trash it! ..why should someone buy it now? ..where is the free copy? Dreamer: 4.unfortuantly...here a very great % of architectural offices and companies don't use legal software...they don't even care about getting a part of there budget for legal software...so what the artists or the architects supposed to do with the company or office owner???This it the point a SW-company should look at. The artists who use a 3d software will buy the software ...sooner or later. A company will not trash the money and buy a software they do not use everyday and if then they buy only one license which is running in a "shared" way on dozens of seats until the SW-company is offering a cheaper networklicense and force them to use legal versions... where we come to the point that SW-companies doesn't support freelancer(Artists) in that generous way which dreamer would need.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ingo Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 Stephen : >>and my latest is lightscape which was a gift from a usa 3d studio owner... This is of course illegal, although Lightscape is now discontinued. Just look at the license agreement. Only the owner of a software can donate it, in this case Discreet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen gilbert Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 s'pose i better uninstall it 'til i get a good reponse from autodesk....i'm emailing them today. cheers steve g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen gilbert Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 email's gone..so i'll wait & see the response from discreet. steve g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kid Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 they'll probably tell you you're using it illegally and to stop using it now. The most ridiculous thing in some of these software user policies is that you're not allowed to hand on the software or sell it when you need it no longer. I mean, how greedy is that. We are apparently paying for the use of the software only, not the full ownership of that unit. If we only use it for six months as opposed to 3 or 4 years then shouldn't we expect a refund in replace of money raised from selling on a perfectly working product? I bought my Max 4 from a friend of my father's who was closing his studio to move overseas. If this breaks the Discreet user agreement then so be it. You can ban me from this site and turn me into the authorities because I will not stop using it until I buy Max 5 from an authorised reseller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen gilbert Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 i hope that discreet come thru here on lightscape, it would be a shame not to be able to use it. "ingo" [or whatever your real name is!]unfortunatly they do not have a similar transfer policy to that of newtek's, which you use where you can buy second hand and simply transfer the ownership... though maybe seeing as: 1.it's legit software with manuals etc not a cdr/copy... 2.retired software [not available anymore] i should be allowed to use it. it's the only fly in discreet's/autodesks way of selling/using software and a main reason i added lightwaver 7.5 last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mzagorski Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 Steve, From previous experiences, I know for a fact that Discreet CAN and normally WILL transfer license between users. I dont see a problem. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ingo Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 Hi Stephen, i only mentioned that it is illegal because of all the political correct people here. I dont wanted to accuse you for doing something wrong, and i think noone reads the endless license agreements for software. And youre right, it was very easy to change the Lightwave license for me too; the same when i bought a few years ago my used copy of Electric Image, you just send an email and receive a new license code (and you have to do the same with the plugins, since they rely on the license number ). Another weird thing is that some companies give away beta versions for free and expect that people are willing to pay for the full version, no wonder they get pirated more often than other companies. Overall like Kid mentioned the whole license theme is a bit odd and the companies should look for a new idea. When i rent a car or a room i dont pay the whole rent in the beginning, i pay per use everyday or month. While in the software business you pay to get the software and pay additional fees for a support plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen gilbert Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 hi to be honest when i installed it i just scrolled thru to the end and pressed i agree...as most people do! [lazy i know!]but having put the cd back in to look at the agrrement...i sent the email to discreet to see if i can use it or not...seeing as it was free, i hope so i also kept the name of the donor out so not to get them in any problems if the reply is no...i'm not in the habit of doing anything illegle as in 1996 i had my house broken into and my whole audio studio was stolen..which took 10yrs to put together...and was looking for new insurance so lost the lot..and learnt deeply from that. anyway..i need to get back to writing some tutorials for collage CGI course..no offense taken BTW steve g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seismograph Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 Stephen, you should contact your local dealer.. he will then arrange a license transfer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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