Using BIM in the real world

[dtownsend]

Does anyone here currently work with a construction company that actually uses 3D models in "the field"?

[thomas+son]

nope

thomas+son

[angelo]

Does anyone here currently work with a construction company that actually uses 3D models in "the field"?

Yep, Motenson in Denver. It's pretty amazing what they've been pulling off with using BIM and 3D models for clash detection and 3D phasing.

 

They've gone so far as building 3D models off 2D plans from Architects because they can catch so much with the virtual model before constructing the physical one.

 

For US based construction companies, they are definitely at the forefront (however, Europe is always ahead of the US in these areas, so there is a ways to go...)

 

3D coordination was used extensively on Lebeskind's Art Museum here, and they might have used it on the Disney Hall in LA.

 

Angelo

[retirado]

yes...I use it and know a lot of architects in Portugal using it.....

 

 

ArchiCAD is the best BIM software, no doubts.....you can really work in BIM with ArchiCAD....There some untitled BIM softwares that in the real world are not usable.....Try it..

 

 

BIM is here to stay...The people who don't start moving to BIM in 5 or 10 years are "dead" to the market....forget the 2D draw now...or you'll be out of clients soon..

 

regards

[wilky9]

uhh, "BIM"? Could I have that used in a sentence please? What's BIM?

[manta]

Building Information Modeling

[Hazdaz]

I have always thought that the 2D way of representing info is sooo antiquated, but I am curious HOW 3D models are used "in the field"?

 

Like are we talking about tablet computers that have a 3D model that the construction workers actually use???

I just can't imagine that EVER working - atleast in the US... seems that too many people here 'enjoy' being backward.

[bricklyne]

uhh, "BIM"? Could I have that used in a sentence please? What's BIM?

 

Building Information Modelling

 

aka

 

Virtual Building (VB)

Virtual Design and Construction (VDC)

Parametric ENabled(PEN) Design

 

http://www.aia.org/tap_a_0903bim

https://www.zweigwhite.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/bookstore/p-igbim.asp?E+aa0019820

 

 

Basically BIM deescribes an architectural design methodology ( sometimes it includes Construction as well), in which a virtual modelof the building is constructed or design in lieu of a paper trail ( Concept, Construction drawings etc), and from which all the necessary design information (including CDs, and cost lists) are derived as from a single source; ostensibly eliminating or reducing coordination errors and increasing a design team's effeciency.

 

Usually a BIM software entails the use of "smart" objects or design elements- typically 3D - which represent the construction elements ( walls, floor slabs, roofs, windows, doors etc) such that rather than having 2 lines represent a wall as is usually the case in 2D CAD, you'll have a 3D element which contains not only the length and wall thickness information, but also the height of the wall, the composition ( the core), as well as whether or not the wall contains any windows or doors and perhaps even whether it's interior or exterior.

 

Another significant feature of most BIM software is the fact that the Virtual model is Parametric in nature, which means that all elements are automatically linked, and all views are automatically linked to the main model such that if you change one element in, say, the section view, the change is reflected in all the floor plans, as well as other sections views and elevations and 3D views if they are affected. Furthermore, changing certain elements in the model affect other elements according to certain rules established by the program.

 

This is how the Automotive, Aeronautical, Nautical and Product desing Industries have designed their products for over 2 decades now, and the AEC industries are only beginning to catch up.

[bricklyne]

I have always thought that the 2D way of representing info is sooo antiquated, but I am curious HOW 3D models are used "in the field"?

 

Like are we talking about tablet computers that have a 3D model that the construction workers actually use???

I just can't imagine that EVER working - atleast in the US... seems that too many people here 'enjoy' being backward.

 

 

how else do you think this (below) was built?

 

And it's not that many people in the US or North America enjoy being backward. It's the Architecture and Construction Industry as a whole which tends to be comparatively slow in adapting to new technology. It took the better part of the 80s and early 90s for most of the Industry to adopt CAD over hand-drafting as a time-saving way of working. And even today, just look at how some architects still tend to be reluctant to use CG visualizations to sell their designs much less help them design.

 

So it's no surprise that BIM may also take a while to catch on. Architects are a notoriously conservative and technophobic group. Which is why architects like Calatrava, Gehry, Libeskind, Foster, etc tend to stand out from the crowd, because they are the ones who embrace technology.

[IC]

I think for the most part, you have to consider who is reading the information which goes out to site.

 

In my experience, 70-80% of the guys on a building site(unless you're using a specialist contractor) have trouble with all but the most basic 2d drawings. I've even been told that some of my renders have been used to explain how something very basic actually works. But if you were to give the same people the raw 3d data, they would be even more in the dark.

 

The Site Managers and Foremen can't spend all day explaining complex drawings and I think a good architect/engineer/draughtsman appreciates that.

[Tommy L]

BIMs do not tend to turn up on site on a laptop. The are still usually 2d prints on site. Its the office workflow that is transformed.

The major reason for the slow uptake is more to do with adoption problems. Any practice that has loads of experienced architects (old dudes) are scared of the drop in productivity whilst changing from autocad. Adopting acad was probably a similar scenario.

[wilky9]

Thanks for the explaination guys. We (well, not me, the architects) use Architectural Desktop here in our office. I take it that the 3d aspects of this program are similar to BIM software. Considering the quality of the models that I get passed to turn into renderings, I'm surprised you can actually build something from them. I guess with enough training, practice and skill...

[dtownsend]

Thanks for the explaination guys. We (well, not me, the architects) use Architectural Desktop here in our office. I take it that the 3d aspects of this program are similar to BIM software. Considering the quality of the models that I get passed to turn into renderings, I'm surprised you can actually build something from them. I guess with enough training, practice and skill...

 

You can't build something from a rendering, but it could be used to see what it will look like when complete (this is one aspect of BIM).

 

The thing you are missing is I=Information. The 3D model contains information that is taken from a 2D set of drawings (unless the architect designs it in 3D). This information is stored in the model and will be pulled from it in the field for building use...just like a normal set of drawings. There are stupid models too that have no information and are only used for visual...this could be BIM, but this is not what I am talking about.

 

We are working towards actaully using the model in the field...My job is to take a set of drawings and start to redraw them in 3D adding information. Right now we use them for business development, scheduling and estimation. Our goal is to take it to the next step like Motenson is doing...I am up-to-date on what they have been doing with BIM.

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

ADT is a poor example of BIM software. it is really nothing more than AutoCAD with some 3d features.

[dtownsend]

ADT is a poor example of BIM software. it is really nothing more than AutoCAD with some 3d features.

 

From what I read I agree. We use ArchiCAD at the moment as well as NavisWorks for Colision Detection and some other plugins we are testing with them such as phasing, etc.

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

Autodesk came in last week, and gave us a Revit presentation. It was pretty impressive, but I think it would take several years for our office to use it to its fullest potential. We switched to Autocad 2-3 years ago from Microstation, and we still have people that will open drawings in Microstation to work on them.

 

Microstation is coming in next to give us a presentation on their BIM solution.

 

If/when we switch, I am betting it will be for Revit, only because we switched to AutoCad from Microstation to try and better align ourselves with our consultants.

[IC]

We use ADT and it is just AutoCad with some slightly smarter 3d bolt on's.

 

The much vaunted scheduling side of ADT is so user unfriendly we have just decided not to use it. Money well spent!

 

Having said that, all our drawings are effectively 3d models. It just doesn't actually benefit anyone.

[Paul Griger]

Interesting discussion.

As mentioned, the benefit of BIM is not going to be immediately noticed on a job site by the subcontractors. Contractors/subs will likely still be working off of CD’s and shop drawings.

The power of BIM is on the front end, during the processes of Design Development, CD’s, and Bid and Negotiating. Theoretically, with BIM if you make a change to the plans, you only have to “document” it once, and all relevant information that affects any other related trades/suppliers would be accurately noted.

For example, a change is made to the design to convert a curtain glass wall into a brick wall. As the architect, you go into your BIM software and delete the curtain wall and convert it into the brick wall. This change is visibly reflected immediately in all related elevations, sections and floor plans.

Beautifully intuitive!

But the idea of BIM goes far beyond this.

Once the architect makes this change, with BIM the theory is that all of the following happens within the software as well:

- the window schedule is altered

- the HVAC notes the change and may resize based on the new heat loss loads

- the brick and other materials used to build this wall is automatically altered in the material and labor bid

- electric work may be altered in the bid due to the new wall

- engineering may be altered for the new loads

- etc…

All of this info is now ACCURATELY noted in quantity. No oversights, no wrongly ordered materials, no missed hours in labor. The plans are up to date and everyone should be on the same page before CD’s even hit the field.

That’s the first beauty of BIM.

The second and arguably larger benefit is this; the information held within a BIM model will cause a power shift that will position the architect into the rightful role as “Master Builder”.

Why?

Think of it this way. Contractors will no longer have to spend endless hours pulling numbers off of 2D plans to put together a bid, but now they can be given all of the information that they need [quantities in materials and proposed man hours] from the architect.

Changes inevitably happen in the field, and here BIM may really make the architect shine.

Here is a scenario. During construction a supplier informs a subcontractor that a material shortage will cause a delay in the delivery of a needed product. The delay is unacceptable, but what are the options? A design change, a new product, maybe alternate materials? A plethora of options may be reviewed by the architect, and once a preferred option is agreed upon, the architect can take the altered BIM plan and pump out new CDs and everything down to pricing will be accurate, and maybe even more importantly, it will done quickly!

It is likely that only that architect will know how to alter the BIM model in his respective design package. An architect would likely not turn over an entire BIM model to everyone involved in construction. What glazing installer, or plumber, or developer is going to want to learn an entire BIM design package? What architect is going to even want to turn over the heart of his entire design? The very idea of BIM demands that any change has to be made from the architect’s source file and then distributed to all involved to make this concept effective, to ensure everyone is on the same page. The architect as the “Master Builder”.

Hence a power shift could occur that transfers some power from developers and builders back into the architect’s hands. Architects will now hold this priceless information within their BIM model, and “knowledge is power”.

This is not is not fanciful musing, but rather, this very mindset is gaining the interest of a growing segment of savvy architectural firms.

Last semester at my university, James Timberlake from KierenTimberlake Assoc. and author of “Refabricating Architecture” touched on this idea. I have spoken to other architects at conferences this last semester who have espoused similar views. Many feel, and rightfully so, that architects have been relegated to the backseat, and some of these architects have hopes that holding the BIM info will help position architects back into the Master Builder position.

Hoping that BIM can cause such a paradigm shift is debatable, [and not fully relevant to this topic] but there is little to argue against the growing idea of BIM being a smarter way to design and build verses 2D.

[retirado]

Just try ArchiCAD at full potential and you'll certain give up about ADT and Revit....ArchiCAD it's just powerfull, easy to use, more export/import capable...and cheaper at least here in Europe...

 

Contact your near ArchiCAD Resseller and you'll see....

 

As they say, they were the first....BIM for over 20 years..Nothing better that the original BIM one...

[dtownsend]

Interesting discussion.

As mentioned, the benefit of BIM is not going to be immediately noticed on a job site by the subcontractors. Contractors/subs will likely still be working off of CD’s and shop drawings.

The power of BIM is on the front end, during the processes of Design Development, CD’s, and Bid and Negotiating. Theoretically, with BIM if you make a change to the plans, you only have to “document” it once, and all relevant information that affects any other related trades/suppliers would be accurately noted.

For example, a change is made to the design to convert a curtain glass wall into a brick wall. As the architect, you go into your BIM software and delete the curtain wall and convert it into the brick wall. This change is visibly reflected immediately in all related elevations, sections and floor plans.

Beautifully intuitive!

But the idea of BIM goes far beyond this.

Once the architect makes this change, with BIM the theory is that all of the following happens within the software as well:

- the window schedule is altered

- the HVAC notes the change and may resize based on the new heat loss loads

- the brick and other materials used to build this wall is automatically altered in the material and labor bid

- electric work may be altered in the bid due to the new wall

- engineering may be altered for the new loads

- etc…

All of this info is now ACCURATELY noted in quantity. No oversights, no wrongly ordered materials, no missed hours in labor. The plans are up to date and everyone should be on the same page before CD’s even hit the field.

That’s the first beauty of BIM.

The second and arguably larger benefit is this; the information held within a BIM model will cause a power shift that will position the architect into the rightful role as “Master Builder”.

Why?

Think of it this way. Contractors will no longer have to spend endless hours pulling numbers off of 2D plans to put together a bid, but now they can be given all of the information that they need [quantities in materials and proposed man hours] from the architect.

Changes inevitably happen in the field, and here BIM may really make the architect shine.

Here is a scenario. During construction a supplier informs a subcontractor that a material shortage will cause a delay in the delivery of a needed product. The delay is unacceptable, but what are the options? A design change, a new product, maybe alternate materials? A plethora of options may be reviewed by the architect, and once a preferred option is agreed upon, the architect can take the altered BIM plan and pump out new CDs and everything down to pricing will be accurate, and maybe even more importantly, it will done quickly!

It is likely that only that architect will know how to alter the BIM model in his respective design package. An architect would likely not turn over an entire BIM model to everyone involved in construction. What glazing installer, or plumber, or developer is going to want to learn an entire BIM design package? What architect is going to even want to turn over the heart of his entire design? The very idea of BIM demands that any change has to be made from the architect’s source file and then distributed to all involved to make this concept effective, to ensure everyone is on the same page. The architect as the “Master Builder”.

Hence a power shift could occur that transfers some power from developers and builders back into the architect’s hands. Architects will now hold this priceless information within their BIM model, and “knowledge is power”.

This is not is not fanciful musing, but rather, this very mindset is gaining the interest of a growing segment of savvy architectural firms.

Last semester at my university, James Timberlake from KierenTimberlake Assoc. and author of “Refabricating Architecture” touched on this idea. I have spoken to other architects at conferences this last semester who have espoused similar views. Many feel, and rightfully so, that architects have been relegated to the backseat, and some of these architects have hopes that holding the BIM info will help position architects back into the Master Builder position.

Hoping that BIM can cause such a paradigm shift is debatable, [and not fully relevant to this topic] but there is little to argue against the growing idea of BIM being a smarter way to design and build verses 2D.

 

 

You make very good points and I have not really though about the power struggle. I work for a good size contractor and we are pushing for the architect to design the model in 3D, but we are also pushing our subs to model there own stuff like HVAC guys make there own model, sprinkler guys make there model and of cource the architect would make there architechial model, but a lot of the stuff the architect really just coordinates or puts standard stuff that is replaced by shop drawings....the sub would model there part (what is in the shop drawing) and this would be put into the model.

 

I know some Architects are jumping on board but it seems a lot are not...and for now we are just making our own model and we do start with SD and DD working towards CDs. All apart of Pre-Construction.

 

But my main question was about field uses...we have established the benefits of BIM in Pre-Construction and even business development, but my job is to move it into the field.

 

What I am looking for:

• A "Viewer" type of software
  
• Allows "field guys" to view the model and cut sections threw the model and get information from the mode.
  
• Allows NO changes
  

 

That is the basics of what we NEED for field use...from my point of view. 2D's are still going to be used...we are not going to throw out autocad, etc. but we do want to make the building process "problem-free" and speed it up. I should have went into more detail into what I was looking for in my first post, but I wanted to see what everyone would say first.

[dtownsend]

Just try ArchiCAD at full potential and you'll certain give up about ADT and Revit....ArchiCAD it's just powerfull, easy to use, more export/import capable...and cheaper at least here in Europe...

Contact your near ArchiCAD Resseller and you'll see....

As they say, they were the first....BIM for over 20 years..Nothing better that the original BIM one...

 

ArchiCAD is a good package...that is what we use and it is cheap (when you look at what we spend on some other software haha).

 

It has it's cons...like it pretty much an "Architect" tool and not really for engineers. We are using it for foundations now, but it is not what it is designed for. I personally do all the foundation work with ArchiCAD...well we use AutoCAD first then XREF into ArchiCAD.

[Aaron2004]

I'm using Argos's Vertex BD. As with any BIM software, it is hard to integrate it into your workplace (especially if you have deadlines and you don't have time to toy around with something not working The biggest problem in my opinion with 3D CAD...and I do like it, don't get me wrong, is this:

 

If you want to to draw a nice peice of trim work in 2D, you draw it in 2D...period. However, when you work in 3D, the trim work now becomes a whole other monster....we are doing our first set of houses in Vertex right now, and just to get used to the interface and commands, we aren't using any of the 2D elevation functions. It would just be unwise in this point of the game.

 

So I guess before you get started in any BIM, you have to realize that you have to eat the elephant one bite at a time.

 

 

Aaron

[Hazdaz]

Good information there guys, and the more I read about BIM, the more I realize that this is not new news at all really. The Architectural/Construction world is waking up to what the Manufacturing world has know for atleast a decade now.

.

Sounds like this is just taking 'simple', 'dumb' geometry, and infusing it with some "intelligence"... as in, that object isn't just 4 lines on a screen anymore, but an actual entity connected to certain information - be it electrical or plumbing or whatever.

[Wanna_be_architect]

ArchiCad is the best BIM software on the market.

 

Im bias though.

[Scott Davis]

ArchiCad is the best BIM software on the market.

Im bias though.

 

At one point, there was a quote here from a disgruntled user. I've edited it out for the sake of the conversation on BIM. Hopefully we can continue the conversation.

 

Others should follow and edit your "MY software is the best!" posts, as this does not add to the conversation about Building Inoformation Modeling. In fact, the most positive thread about BIM would contain NO references to any specific software, good or bad.

 

Otherwise, we will end up with long winded diatribes and bad analogies as some people get overly defensive.