MR forum, can it get any worse.

[Ernest Burden III]

And worse and worse and worse

[ki_cz]

I am finding it more and more difficult to believe that even with the absolute craziness on the forums right now, that NL hasn't released some kind of information.

 

The last feature released (realtime lighting changes) although great, is as many people have said, something that wasn't really asked for. I think that the problem is that there are some very very strict and difficult to deal with limitations in the core technology/engine that NL is using. The engine that they are using makes it easy to implement features like realtime lighting changes, but it makes it very difficult for other features such as caustics, reflected caustics or indoor renders clearing quickly to be included.

 

Not only that, but to actually say "time barriers are no longer an issue" because you can use multiple machines to render an image, is the most ludicrous thing I think I have read from the side of NL in a long, long, long time. That's like saying that "travelling between Australia and North America is no longer an issue because of the invention of the airplane", where in the beginning, flying was neither cheap nor a viable solution for a lot of people. I applaud the people who have access to 5+ computers and can speed up their renders in that way, but don't tell me that time is no longer an issue simply because I have to throw more technology at it. I still to this day remember the images and render times released by NL prior to the RC1 release, what a bunch of lies.

[Ernest Burden III]

I got curious about the history of Maxwell. I posted an interesting timeline in a thread about other render engines.

 

 

There was 'Jackie3D' that was a spectral, emmiter and dielectric, Lambertian diffuse path tracing engine. The writer, with a possibly Spanish name, thanked Oscar Cano (Maxwell's big brain) for all his GI help. His last 'update' is Aug. 2004, a few weeks later KEYTOONS is formed, in Spain. On the same day KT says they are working with NextLimit on a special project, post an animation project called 'Dr. Maxwell' on CGtalk, later reveal it was rendered with Maxwell.

 

A few months later Maxwell is announced.

 

Could Jackie3D have become Maxwell? Maybe, or not. I'm not sure how it even matters, but it is interesting.

[ki_cz]

I got curious about the history of Maxwell. I posted an interesting timeline in a thread about other render engines.

There was 'Jackie3D' that was a spectral, emmiter and dielectric, Lambertian diffuse path tracing engine. The writer, with a possibly Spanish name, thanked Oscar Cano (Maxwell's big brain) for all his GI help. His last 'update' is Aug. 2004, a few weeks later KEYTOONS is formed, in Spain. On the same day KT says they are working with NextLimit on a special project, post an animation project called 'Dr. Maxwell' on CGtalk, later reveal it was rendered with Maxwell.

A few months later Maxwell is announced.

Could Jackie3D have become Maxwell? Maybe, or not. I'm not sure how it even matters, but it is interesting.

 

That's pretty interesting. I'm 100% certain that the current situation with maxwell has very little to do with the program itself, but rather the the business model that NL has adopted.

[Ernest Burden III]

That's pretty interesting. I'm 100% certain that the current situation with maxwell has very little to do with the program itself, but rather the the business model that NL has adopted.

 

I would agree, and that is my point, really--that perhaps we can have Maxwell (by another name) but without NextLimit. Let's call that the best of both worlds.

[_PopArt]

Why not take a look at Indigo? Its a long way off, but if itd author keeps up the pace its working at, and the community grows and enthusiasm for it, it could be one day not too far a great program. Its uses spectral calculus and MLT just like Maxwell, and sunlight works with glass, which makes you wonder about maxwell's cul de sac problems, dispersion and soon bump mapping will be working. Its been done in just a few months by one person in his spare time, and its free. With alot of support and enthusiasm it could soon be a nice render engine. I'm sure that Oscar Cano is a great programmer, but he sure isnt the father of MLT or spectral calculus in the cg world, its been around for a long time, with all of its limitations like slow and noisiness. Because unbiased mean also brute force which means unoptimized, things like photon mapping and final gathering were developed to optimize slow brute force methods, not the other way around. So is maxwell new, or is it old? Maybe somewhere in between:)

[Devin Johnston]

I'm sorry guys but I want something for all the time, pain, and money I've spent on Maxwell. If they want to kill it that's fine as long as I'm given something that I can use to do work with. Maybe RC6 or Maxwell 1.5 or what ever there going to call it is going to be the end of the road but I think we at least deserve something!

 

I do agree however that the technology that has been developed for Maxwell will eventually find it’s way into other engines. Let’s hope that the next company that tries this has a better understanding of customer relations than NL does.

[Ernest Burden III]

I'm sorry guys but I want something for all the time, pain, and money I've spent on Maxwell.

 

We have something now. It's not the right something, but it seems fairly capable in limited situations. Its not what we paid for, but we are not going to get that.

 

None of us are going to be able to change the course that Victor has chosen, he's not open to anything. So our options are fairly simple--wait it out or destroy NL. I'm not waiting anymore.

 

Even as we say we get no communication from NL, we actually do. We know that there are two engines, and only rs2 can do the sun+glass thing and clipmaps. But RC5, any other pre-1.0 versions and v1.0 itself will be using rs1 with enough code cobbled together to get it out the door. Work on rs2 is for later. We have been told that speed is going to be attained through adding CPUs, and not likely through optomizations, at least not in the multipliers promised.

 

We are not going to get our money back, we aren't even going to have our emails answered anymore.

 

From hints posted on the MWforum by A-Teamers we can see that rs2 is capable of much magic, solves all problems, makes your bed in the morning. But when will we see it in the MWR product? No way to tell.

[Sawyer]

I went over to the Mwell forum read that thread & I have no idea what happened. I can see that Fran was upset about having her thread edited and then this Tom guy goes into the David Brent school of customer service. From what I gathered with the language translation he was saying it is better that he was insulting than dishonest about his feelings. And then he has a poll asking people if they prefer his off the cuff manner than having him act mature and professional. I don't know the history of this charactor but reading the thread it seems like the lanquage issue is a possible stumbeling block.

Ultimatly NL may need to put a disclaimer or maybe part of their EUL:

 

"We take pride in our product to a fault and by using this product you assume the stance that if you don't like it it is your fault. Not ours. Something is clearly wrong with you if you don't lilke this program. You may need mental help.

We reserve the right to insult you. Any complaint you have with NL no way reflects reality. We do not have to help you. You have actually made this software slightly the worse by using it and we have to take time now to fix this."

[Ernest Burden III]

I've been digging in the past a bit lately and made a few interesting discoveries, like Jackie3D, and that even the angriest person now was once a supportive, patient MWR owner.

 

Ah, but some bad news. Despite being sure my first MWR licence was purchased early in 2005--Feb. maybe--I see that I have been misleading everyone. I was not such an 'early adopter' as I've shamelessly portrayed myself. In fact, my first licence was bought about May 2, 2005, the second 6/13. I am deeply sorry for misleading about the length of my suffering, unintentional as it was.

 

The good news is that now BOTH purchases may fall within my chargeback window. Hello, Mastercard?

[AJLynn]

Ultimatly NL may need to put a disclaimer or maybe part of their EUL:

 

"We take pride in our product to a fault and by using this product you assume the stance that if you don't like it it is your fault. Not ours. Something is clearly wrong with you if you don't lilke this program. You may need mental help.

We reserve the right to insult you. Any complaint you have with NL no way reflects reality. We do not have to help you. You have actually made this software slightly the worse by using it and we have to take time now to fix this."

 

I think you've got it dead on.

 

I've sent them complaints by email, and now I occasionally get email from Maya about how I'm going to love the next release. I think they really do believe we'll love everything they do, and when we don't they scratch their heads for a minute then decide we must be crazy.

 

The good news is that now BOTH purchases may fall within my chargeback window. Hello, Mastercard?

 

Do it. Keep a record of everything that happens and publish it as performance art.

[Adehus]

Is it just me, or is the Maxwell forum not working/opening now?

 

EDIT: Works now. Oh well, a guy can dream...

[ClaudeFerret]

Well I've got a break from Maxwell's forum because Darth Vader banned me.

 

For those of you that may have caught the reason for my banishment let me say this. The anti war thread personally offended me, but I also believe I was clear in saying I wouldn't have placed a pro war thread for the exact same reasons. I don't care if people care to be pro or anti war, but I really get angered seeing it on a render engine forum. To me, they were poking me with a stick, and I bit back. Not wise on my part, but Darth should have removed that thread in the first place.

 

Lastly that clever graphic looked too much like a jet swooping down on New York, it really pissed me off!

 

Going away for awhile.

Take care all.

Stephen.

[Devin Johnston]

They banned you, what happened?

[ClaudeFerret]

Just found out that my reply to Mike, which I felt was a good thoughtfull response, got removed from the forum.

 

I basically said that their idea would allow me to start a thread about religions I don't like, or a anti american thread if done tastefully. My point is people should never start threads like this to begin with, and it's clearly the MOD's job to remove such posts before they get out of hand.

 

Anyway, Tom sent me a PM and said he was sorry for removing my response. It seemed very sincere.

 

Now I'm taking my break. Got some work to calm me down thankfully.

 

Stephen

 

RE: Maxer request,

The part that's left is under the thread "just do it"

My response thread to being banned has been removed.

[Fran]

I thought the no war thing was about the forum.

 

I can't blame Mike for having a short fuse right now though. Everyone's pretty trigger-happy over there.

[Ernest Burden III]

I thought the no war thing was about the forum.

 

I think whomever posted that should have been given a dressing-down. One of the best thing about this board is that we have avoided that crap through many international incidents that many of us must have strong opinions on. But we have held our tongues and kept the board respectful for all.

 

I banned myself today, though I have some PMs from people asking for certain help and advice. So I may have something to post there tomorrow by request, but otherwise I'm banned.

[jonosf]

Hey folks I'm wondering if you'd rec at all buying a M~W license... I've been reading all the negativity in the forums over there. I'm a newbie to ArchVis but been a modeler in the film and cg world for about 10 years with a schooling in Architecture... kinda want to get back to my roots. That said I've been impressed with the Maxwell images, but have read all the horror stories with NL.

 

I've been trying to learn mental ray on my Maya set up and am getting some decent images but still have a hankering to 'play' with Maxwell, so is it worth $500 bucks to throw away or do yall think I could get something out of it? (I'm both a mac and pc guy)

 

Thanks for all the info and interesting reading! (and please let me know if I shoulda posted this somewhere else - forums are new to me too)

 

-jono

San Rafael, CA

[Adehus]

Jono-

I'd recommend using MWR if-

 

-You willing to accept extremely buggy software

-You're comfortable with working your projects around the many limitations

of the app

-You're fine with being (and I don't think it's too strong to say) lied to constantly by the developers of the app.

-You're OK with the possibility of never seeing the full 1.0 release, and the potential that the company may not survive

-You're not concerned about getting any kind of customer service

 

OTOH, if $500 isn't a big deal to you, and you just want to experiment with something different, then go for it. I personally think the company is corrupt, and don't recommend supporting them from an ethical standpoint. But I don't necessarily expect others to see it that way.

[Devin Johnston]

Adehus basically said it all, they aren't trustworthy and there is no guarantee that you will get a final version. I would recommend not buying it simply because there is so much negative stuff going on right now around NL and they have yet to show any interest in supporting the customer whether they be new or old ones. I think the more new licenses they sell the easier it is for them to justify that what they have been doing to us over the last year is Ok. It's a miserable existence being a Maxwell customer.

[renato]

mmmhh...I wonder how many licenses NL have sold this year.

[Guest imanobody]

Hey renato, hate to bother you like this, but those losers on your forum are bitching again that they don't have their 10,000x10,000 render engine and a spaceship. I told them to shutup and relax, but you know how "those" types are. I mean, I invested my money in a dream and I'm willing to wait for my spaceship as long as it takes. But, unfortunately, those other cry babies don't see it that way. Take your time and don't rush yourself; I know it will be finished SOON.

I'm now going to go outside and get some sun as I smell the pretty flowers.

[AJLynn]

The worst part is, given the tone on the M~R forum it's kind of hard to tell you're being sarcastic.

[renato]

Anyway, MR forum is no longer interesting. Now it's waaaaay too boring to pay it a visit.

[leoA4D]

...Despite being sure my first MWR licence was purchased early in 2005--Feb. maybe--I see that I have been misleading everyone. I was not such an 'early adopter' as I've shamelessly portrayed myself. In fact, my first licence was bought about May 2, 2005, the second 6/13.

 

Egads! Our leader is a newbie! March 17, '05, here. Na, na, na, na, na. Since this is true confessions, there is no doubt in my mind you have done a lot more with M~R than moi. I have played, and am playing, but nothing to show for the time. I get frustrated with it not working with Mac and C4D and swear to wait to the next version comes out. That's where I am now.

 

Hey, your history thread is very interesting – love the intrigue/speculation!