MR forum, can it get any worse.

[Devin Johnston]

Guy's the word is out about NL, every site I go to knows what NL has done to their customers and those people are the ones who would be buying their software. NL has wedged them selves between a rock and a hard place, it will take many years an a lot of good faith before their reputation recovers from this. I wouldn’t worry about a boycott, I think they have done more harm to them selves than any of us could ever do.

[_PopArt]

are you o sure though?

 

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=6861081

 

having friends in high places can make people arrogant:)

[Devin Johnston]

Wow, there really working there connections.

[Gattomanzo]

yes Ian, they delete thread, but PM worked for you, isn't it?

 

Next Limit BTW hasn't answered my email yet, re-sended this evening with confirmation request.

[Sawyer]

Guy's the word is out about NL, every site I go to knows what NL has done to their customers and those people are the ones who would be buying their software...I wouldn’t worry about a boycott, I think they have done more harm to them selves than any of us could ever do.

 

I think thats the issue - now everyone knows about these issues. But give it a few months after the software is out people will forget. Maxer you hopefully will be doing great images and then you will be selling the product. Even if you say you can't stand the company or the even software it every nice image is an ambassador for maxwell. This might not be a bad thing. I imagine that the forum will cool off at some point. Maybe once everything is working there the censorship issues will go away. But what is it you guys want from this situation a working program or to send a message that this behavior is not tolerated? Be clear because the outcome is really different.

[Adehus]

But what does taking a stand mean? In my mind it would be boycotting he final product regardless of it's merits. Don't use it or even dl it. Aside from that what are the options?

 

To my mind, there are plenty of ways to take a stand against NL... most obvious one being to tell them what you really think, even at the risk of banishment from their forum.

 

From there, put just a small fraction of the time you put into NL's site into posting your frustrations elsewhere on the web. Yeah, I know everyone's heard it before, but you don't have to be incendiary about it... just say, "I was going to do such-and-such in Maxwell, but (insert missing feature) keeps me from using it" or "can you believe I was banned from the Maxwell forum for asking about missing features?" When such things are echoed by a diverse group of respected users it will make an impression.

 

Beyond that we could... Googlebomb Dugge's site into prominence, invent a small non-profit watchdog group and put out press releases explaining the absurdity of it all... aww hell... there are tons of things to consider, I'm sure I haven't even scratched the surface.

 

We're all creative types here... if you want to make an impression on NL and achieve significant change (or close up shop) there are plenty of tools at our disposal. The only thing that's necessary is the will to make something happen.

[Devin Johnston]

But what is it you guys want from this situation a working program or to send a message that this behavior is not tolerated? Be clear because the outcome is really different.

 

I want a working program that contains all the features that were originally advertised to me that made me purchase Maxwell in the first place. I believe that is what most people want, if they had this then all this other stuff would go away. Problem is were not going to get it for months or years and instead of working with us and giving us information on development they choose to keep us in the dark. That is what has caused all of this mess, almost no one that I've seen has a problem with Maxwell or its quality, it’s really about NL and what they've done.

[Bongo51]

I emailed the following to autodesk.

 

I'm shocked and surprised to find such a controversial product on this website.

I own maxwell, and I'm here to tell you that it's not even a product yet. lts over 1.5 YEARS behind schedule (NOT KIDDING) and they are currently clearing their forum of people who argue with the administrators. I have had many posts locked and deleted. Nobody is allowed to post anything relating to Next Limiit policy or any of the moderators. In effect a free speech ban is in effect.

 

Also the viability of the product itself is in question. We all have been waiting for more then a year for the final, and though they claim it will be released soon, they have made that claim before... namely October 2004, April 2005, and now April 2006. Previous 'finished products' have been barely functional and most of us (including 99% of the work on maxwellrender.com have been done with the BETA which was released almost TWO YEARS AGO.

I would recommend caution selling this product.

my 2 cents.

 

-----------

 

it's like my x-girlfriend who worked for a television production company says. Most bad commercials are produced only because everyone is so afraid to tell the director it's crap, for fear of losing their jobs.. the product gets TO MARKET and THEN everyone pipes up and calls it crap, and the director says... "why didn't anyone tell me!? Your all fired!"

 

So might as well tell the truth... often and to anyone that will listen.

[AJLynn]

PM I sent to Tom:

 

The rules link you posted was for the Maxwell General forum, and the bullet point was about "inflammatory or belligerent remarks / comments against other forum users or against NL personel (sic)". Your rule about not discussing forum policies is not in the rules anywhere, and Mike's guidelines say that complaints that are not abusive or thread hijacking are okay, within limits.

 

My post was polite, non-abusive and correctly located in the Off-Topic secion, not a technical board. It was a reasonable complaint. I feel (as many do) that my friends have been treated unfairly and that you have not treated them with the professionalism and respect that a company representative should use toward paying customers - and as paying customers ourselves, this is of course something that concerns us and is relevant to our ability to participate in a discussion forum.

 

Please clarify the rules, in the guidelines announcement section, and make it officially stated NL policy that your decisions are not open to public discussion; or make no changes and allow public discussion of your decisions. The fact that we were able to go on for five pages with only polite debate and no insults or abuse used is a demonstration of the fact that among civilized people, civilized disagreement is possible, and this type of rule unnecessary.

[_PopArt]

I think that what Adehus says and Bongo51 says are the best things to do. For sure Victor & co. manage to convince (through empty promises and fine wine i immagine) autodesk into a partnership (eg lots of money), but sending emails (mass complaints) directly to autodesk is a very good idea. It wont do anything, because Autodesk is a multinational and multinationals dont care about people, but the more emails they recieve complaining about Next Limit the more possibility there is that they will start to have some doubt about Next Limit. People who have Autodesk licenses for autocad/ADT/revit/3d max etc should especially do this. Then as Adehus says, people should make appeals to many of the cg sites and forums out there to communicate to people the unethical and ridiculous business practices of NL. Many people can back up these things, including two ex NL employes who were the key programmers of Real Flow and also some Maxwell Render resellers who have stated that they won court cases against Next Limit recently, and have stated that they company is of total harm to the cg community

 

Sending emails to next limit or to the mods is totally useless. They go straight to the waste basket

[AJLynn]

It's just a blurb on the web site. A heck of a lot of plugin developers and others with relevant content have them.

[Gattomanzo]

Buffos talked once of EU consumers complain form, where is it? we should all ask for damages... in my email to Oscar Monzon i've asked to remove Tom as administrator.

[Jeff Mottle]

The last few night's I've been writting the article for 3Dworld which will accompany the survey results from the industry survey. Curiously of those who do use third party rendering engines the usesage looked like this:

 

All Respondants 3rd party rendering usage

 

Scanline: 25%

 

V-Ray: 48%

Maxwell: 11%

FinalRender 9%

Brazil R/S:8%

 

 

Respondants 3rd party rendering usage who use 3dsmax

 

Scanline: 14%

 

V-Ray: 64%

Maxwell: 10%

Brazil R/S: 11%

Final Render: 11%

 

 

Bear in the mind the question asked which thrid party engines were being used in Production

[Bongo51]

AJlynn

 

I had exactly the same experience with tom.

 

I sent him quite a stern email daring him to justify deleting my goodbye posting. I simply wanted to give out my email for the few peeps I had become accustomed to conversing with.

 

Apparently anyone he's mad at doesn't deserve to post AT ALL. So why bother having rules at all? Might as well make the rules

"we own the server, we make the rules. Different day.. different rules"

 

it's AMAZING that they get away with it. anyone who tries to tell everyone what is actually going on there, that so much data and 'stuff' is being deleted instantly... how can you tell people, when your posts are instantly deleted.

 

It's a travesty

 

Ian.

[Adehus]

The last few night's I've been writting the article for 3Dworld which will accompany the survey results from the industry survey. Curiously of those who do use third party rendering engines the usesage looked like this:

 

Scanline: 19%

 

V-Ray: 48%

Maxwell: 17%

Brazil R/S:13%

FinalRender 12%

 

 

Bear in the mind the question asked which thrid party engines were being used in Production

 

What's your point? (other than threadjacking? )

[Bongo51]

Jeff,

 

If I read those stats (and I read 3D world every month)

 

I would snort milk out my nose.

 

I can't IMAGINE anyone using maxwell in production. Like I said.. it can't even do glass windows properly.. there's something'a fishy there. I use it in production, but only when I know I have lots of time... busy production houses?

 

If it's true, I'd love to see what they are using it for.

 

[Adehus]

Jeff,

 

If I read those stats (and I read 3D world every month)

 

I would snort milk out my nose.

 

I can't IMAGINE anyone using maxwell in production. Like I said.. it can't even do glass windows properly.. there's something'a fishy there. I use it in production, but only when I know I have lots of time... busy production houses?

 

If it's true, I'd love to see what they are using it for.

 

 

I tend to agree... it really does serve to question the methodology of the survey.

[Jeff Mottle]

Jeff,

 

If I read those stats (and I read 3D world every month)

 

I would snort milk out my nose.

 

I can't IMAGINE anyone using maxwell in production. Like I said.. it can't even do glass windows properly.. there's something'a fishy there. I use it in production, but only when I know I have lots of time... busy production houses?

 

If it's true, I'd love to see what they are using it for.

 

 

Yeah it caught be by surprise too. There could be several reasons for it:

 

1. People interpreted "production" as "trying" it in production

2. There really are people who are using it in production and don't care about the current flaws or lack of features

[Ernest Burden III]

1. People interpreted "production" as "trying" it in production

2. There really are people who are using it in production and don't care about the current flaws or lack of features

 

Either or both could explain the finding.

[Devin Johnston]

We know of at least one company that has used Maxwell in production, Keytoon made some very nice animations with Maxwell in the very beginning. I wonder if they gave up using it once the RC's were released, Mike is also using it for some Star Wars project he’s working on with Lucas Arts.

[Gattomanzo]

at this point, was we are gonna do?

[Bongo51]

if maxwell ever... EVER comes close to realizing it's dream it will be a force to be recon'd with.

 

http://www.maxwellrender.com/files/EmberedWood1.jpg

http://www.maxwellrender.com/files/...dispersion0.jpg

http://www.maxwellrender.com/files/...anisoref6gv.jpg

http://www.maxwellrender.com/files/ssshdri6qk.jpg

http://www.maxwellrender.com/whitep...es/coatings.jpg

 

 

these are impressive for any render... but all from the same renderer.. it's stunning.

 

My beef is with the company... not the product. The shameless way they have treated the loyals.. I have been on that forum since alpha... almost 2 years. The silence, and the broken promises... the lies. it's plain silly really.

 

the vray point is 100% true. Next limit could have easily rallied people to their banner. With a little bit of PR savvy they could have us all out there selling Maxwell to our grandmothers... but no. now they ban people, and from what I can see, anyone with professional clout who also complains is the first to go. This is their method of damage control. Silence and killing off those who voice their opinion.

 

When you look at what the product can do, the companies behaviour fills me with sadness more then anything else. I WANT to use maxwell, it's a life long dream to have access to that kind of rendering power. It would just be nice to use maxwell because of Next Limit, instead of, In spite of Next Limit.

 

I can tell you one thing. I'd rather poke out my eyes with burning pencils then purchase realflow!

 

Ian

[_PopArt]

Well maxwell came out in late 2004, and they're already at a 17% third party share following Jeff's survey. Love them or hate them, i guess they are a force to be reckoned with

[Sawyer]

So...

 

Basically this is all talk. Everyone wants Maxwell and hopes to use it someday. We have been waiting for vray for a while and I think we will be waiting (a bit more patiently true) for a while longer. Tom acts this way because he can, no one is walking away. Every one gasp and shouts and then at the end of the day pays his check. Which is fine if people still think this product will deliver there is no reason not to wait.

[Devin Johnston]

The reason that few if any are walking away is because of two things, the monetary investment made and more importantly the investment in time. People have become emotionally invested in this stupid thing and that's more valuable and addictive than money.