MR forum, can it get any worse.

[bricklyne]

Wow. He always seemed like such a gentle guy... he must have taken some serious crap to feel the need to speak up like that.

 

Aren't he and Andronikos partners? Andro was so active on NL forums, but has been conspicuously absent for quite some time. Looks like the archviz types are fleeing... I bet MWR will render ya up one hell of a nice death star, though. Yee ha.

 

 

Considering the fact that Zuliban is by many people's opinion, one of the best, if not the best Viz artist around the net, and also considering his uncanny ability to master almost any of the software he's introduced to, to produce stunning images - the software's shortcomings notwithstanding - I think this speaks volumes as to just how messed up things were and are, even behind the scenes with those NL guys; that they could drive out a guy of his calibre and temperement.

 

Andrew, he is (or is that, was?) partners with Andronikos, Giraffe (from the Evermotion forum) and guess who else? Yep, the good old Tom-inator, moderator extrodinaire and god-child on the loose. That must have been a fun working relationship; if Tom's recent power trips on the NL forums are anything to go by.

 

I'd be interested to hear Zuli's version of the goings-on behind the scenes within the Beta team and the NL Admin in general; particularly the events surrounding the RC's fiasco, last November.

[Devin Johnston]

Respondants 3rd party rendering usage who use 3dsmax

 

Scanline: 14%

 

V-Ray: 64%

Maxwell: 10%

Brazil R/S: 11%

Final Render: 11%

 

What really surprises me is the percentage of people still using Scanline. I wonder what the correlation is between new people entering the CG market and those still using that technology. If these numbers are correct and Maxwell some how scores a big one with V1 I could see it's percentage of the market doubling very soon.

[AdamT]

Don't forget that Thomas An.--another talented artist--also bailed on the NL beta program, and had some uncomplimentary things to say at the time. I guess he's now involved in the VRay/Rhino beta. Same goes for Whiskey--left the beta program with a very bad attitude. I'd love to hear the inside story, but I guess we never will due to NDA restrictions.

[AdamT]

Considering the fact that Zuliban is by many people's opinion, one of the best, if not the best Viz artist around the net, and also considering his uncanny ability to master almost any of the software he's introduced to, to produce stunning images - the software's shortcomings notwithstanding - I think this speaks volumes as to just how messed up things were and are, even behind the scenes with those NL guys; that they could drive out a guy of his calibre and temperement.

Andrew, he is (or is that, was?) partners with Andronikos, Giraffe (from the Evermotion forum) and guess who else? Yep, the good old Tom-inator, moderator extrodinaire and god-child on the loose. That must have been a fun working relationship; if Tom's recent power trips on the NL forums are anything to go by.

I'd be interested to hear Zuli's version of the goings-on behind the scenes within the Beta team and the NL Admin in general; particularly the events surrounding the RC's fiasco, last November.

 

Interesting. I was wondering what happend to Adronikos. He went from being one of NL's staunchest supporters to ... a ghost, almost overnight.

[Fran]

I am in serious need of help here. Did NL advertise, in different 2005 marketing versions that M~R would include certain features in v1 when some won't be in the 26 April '06 v1? Wasn't M~R suppose to hit the streets on a certain date and it didn't and for months NL advertized that delivery was imminent and one and all should plunk down their money to take advantage of the pre-order price before it was too late when NL knew delivery was still months away? Didn't people call this fraudulent advertizing? Did NL take peoples pre-order money and spend it? Weren't there a bunch of people upset with the RC 1-4 that one or more RCs did not work at all and claiming that the testers were using one engine and something else was given to us? Wasn't there a promise of a 10X speed increase last November and then a month or two later, we are told the time barrier had been broken – by using nine cpus? Wasn't there one or more render core switches – RS1 and RS2 – that were never fully explained? Wasn't there an issue about NL not allowing refunds and then it was learned that a group of resellers were given refunds?

 

If this list is equal to Autodesk, Vray and Brazil's conduct, I guess NL's behavior has to be considered acceptable business methods and nothing need be said about these occurences in any review of v1. And, if NL did not do these things, then I need get on my knees and plead to be reinstated to posting on the forum. It looks like I need to go buy knee protectors that carpet installers use. Need to practice, "Please Mike, take me back?"

 

I was trying to point out that an unbiased review can be written. We all have a lot of baggage thanks to the supreme customer relations and exemplary marketing tactics exhibited by Next Limit. When it all comes down to it, the user wants to know "How does it work? Does it work as advertised? Was it easy to use? Were there any crashes? What kind of system is required? What's the feature list? How did you find tech support?" Lay the baggage aside (no matter how well-earned) and look at Maxwell V1 with an unflinching eye. It will either hold up or it won't.

[Fran]

What really surprises me is the percentage of people still using Scanline. I wonder what the correlation is between new people entering the CG market and those still using that technology. If these numbers are correct and Maxwell some how scores a big one with V1 I could see it's percentage of the market doubling very soon.

 

There are many Max users who use radiosity or Mental Ray.

 

ETA - Jeff, a 7% difference isn't what I'd call slight.

 

And :eek: about Zuliban.

[_PopArt]

Yes the difference between 17% and 10% is pretty big, but the statistics are very useful anyway. About beta testers i guess the message there is clear too - the more professional people dissapear and are replaced by 'yes people' - sad but no too uncommon. Probably NL looks at the NL forum and picks out the more pathological people to use as testers or moderators. Being critical in any way even if in a constructive way is probably reason to be kicked off. If you dont think that maxwell is the second coming of jesus you are probably an enemy in Nl's eyes

 

I say this because one thing i would like to see before the final release are some images or more complex spaces or something that could let me know if the image quality of 1.0 will be like the beta. When modo shows test image the scenes give you an good impression of what the renderer will be like. With maxwell the test images allways seems like they hiding something, like a game of hide and seek

 

Having said that it is probably true that writing an article based on facts about maxwell is the correct thing to do. As said, autodesk, microsoft and many others have probably done worse things. OTOH we are starting to have a pretty long list of repesctable cg people who define nl simply as 'liers'. who knows:)

[buffos]

I would like to comment smthg about the light's mixer feature.

 

If you know how metropolis algorithm works, or similar path tracing algorithms ( the "simply" integrate along paths connecting the light source and the point of view and then "mix" the results) then the light mixing feature is an obvious benifit of the procedure. Light intensity has a linear effect, so if you use an emmiter with unnary intensity, increasing the light intencity is just a simple multiplication.

 

Think of the resulting image as a VECTOR SPACE. The BASE vectors are the emmiters. You just have to use UNARY values and a coefficient as scalar.

The result is just a linear combination. As simple as that.

 

So the trick is to just STORE all the results you have for each light INDEPENDANTLY. Nothing more.

 

No magic at all. This is one of the great advantages of the method.

[Adehus]

I would like to comment smthg about the light's mixer feature.

 

It seems like a valuable feature to me, but they are trying to get way more mileage out of it than it deserves.

 

Architectural glass, though... that seems like a big good thing. Like Popart said, all of their tests seem as though there's something to hide, so probably best tor reserve judgement until we can use it ourselves.

[buffos]

Dear Adehus.

 

If NL wanted an HONEST presentation of its AGS (archit glass solution) then besides how good this solution is, they should point out the LIMITATIONS of the approach. BUT no. This is standard NL policy. We will have to find out ourselfs.

 

It seams to me that the AGS is a simple plastic like material, with attenuation set high, and with a coating to recreate reflections. ( i guess the adjustment of the strength of reflections is a simple weightmap or smthg in those lines)

 

What i expect is that it will have no refraction but for archiviz this is not important (well only rarely)

I dont know if it has other limitations but unfortunatelly we will have to find out ourselfs

 

For me, and think every honest proffesional and more important a SCIENTIST, when presenting a solution always attaches conditions and limitations.

Ofcourse there are scientists that even ALTER data just to present a paper and get some money. They are prepared to cheat (doctors and medicals mostly). These are charlatans.

 

Its your call to name NL.

[leoA4D]

I was trying to point out that an unbiased review can be written.

 

I agree with you, Fran.

 

Lay the baggage aside (no matter how well-earned) and look at Maxwell V1 with an unflinching eye. It will either hold up or it won't.

 

1/ The route to significant and lasting change with NL is by way of allowing the facts to inform the public and to remind the company that their business ethics are as important as their products. NL has a track record of many (not so minor) incidents of questionable/bad business practices extending back more than a year. Nothing to date indicates that NL has changed. To write a review shortly after the release of v1 without some coverage of this history, proportional to the incidents of the last year+, is to sweep what happened under the rug and is a clear message that there is no need to change.

 

2/ Maybe it is just me, but, whenever I talk to a friend/associate/colleague/client about NL/M~R I will warn them about NL. I would expect that all publications, that care about their professional credibility, will treat me like a friend/associate/colleague/client and warn me of the pitfalls, existing/potential, before I buy into something they are giving a favorable review.

 

3/ Consumer protection standards should apply to apps companies as well as appliances, vehicles, airlines, sleepware for babies, etc. And it is a fair expectation, on the part of consumers, that they apply to NL.

 

It is truly a shame that M~R is associated with all of this, however, it is not of our doing. NL created the problem and has done nothing to change its ways.

 

All the above – IMHO.

[Gattomanzo]

Dear Adehus.

 

If NL wanted an HONEST presentation of its AGS (archit glass solution) then besides how good this solution is, they should point out the LIMITATIONS of the approach. BUT no. This is standard NL policy. We will have to find out ourselfs.

 

It seams to me that the AGS is a simple plastic like material, with attenuation set high, and with a coating to recreate reflections. ( i guess the adjustment of the strength of reflections is a simple weightmap or smthg in those lines)

 

What i expect is that it will have no refraction but for archiviz this is not important (well only rarely)

I dont know if it has other limitations but unfortunatelly we will have to find out ourselfs

 

For me, and think every honest proffesional and more important a SCIENTIST, when presenting a solution always attaches conditions and limitations.

Ofcourse there are scientists that even ALTER data just to present a paper and get some money. They are prepared to cheat (doctors and medicals mostly). These are charlatans.

 

Its your call to name NL.

 

buffos, please check you pm

[Adehus]

2/ Maybe it is just me, but, whenever I talk to a friend/associate/colleague/client about NL/M~R I will warn them about NL. I would expect that all publications, that care about their professional credibility, will treat me like a friend/associate/colleague/client and warn me of the pitfalls, existing/potential, before I buy into something they are giving a favorable review.

 

That's the funny part- that anyone could think an unbiased review could possibly exclude the truth about the undeniably extraordinary events that have led up to release!

[Fran]

That's the funny part- that anyone could think an unbiased review could possibly exclude the truth about the undeniably extraordinary events that have led up to release!

 

What is the truth exactly? The full, verifiable, backed up with sworn testamony truth? What allegations will stand up in a court of law? Are the allegations against NL worth going to court over? How can that truth be put forth in a manner that doesn't expose the host of such a review to possible lawsuits? It is possible that NL could conceivably achieve what they've promised all of us with 1.0 or 1.x. What then? The service to the public in a properly written review is to inform them of the product, the reviewer's experience with the product and the reviewer's experience with the company's support system. In other words, when you buy a license of Maxwell, will you be getting your money's worth? Loads of people could give a rats *ss what we've been through.

 

I will be very interested to see what a disinterested 3rd party has to say when they experience Maxwell and Next Limit enough to be qualified to write a review. Next Limit will dig it's own grave. They don't even need shovels. People are paying attention to us - where there is smoke... well enough cheesy cliches.

[AdamT]

... well enough cheesy cliches.

One more: the same people you abused on the way up, you'll meet up with, on your way down.

[buffos]

Gatto... No pm.

Where did you sent it? In which forum? I hope not NL's

I am banned there

 

 

Ooops. I just saw it.. sorry Gatto...

I will answer as soon as possible....

[Adehus]

What is the truth exactly?

 

Sure, there's been plenty of speculation about alot of things, but there is still a solid list of well documented (major) mistakes on NL's part. We have numerous missed release dates and of course a long laundry list of broken promises (constant updates? 10x speed inprovements by Dec of last year?) Not even the most fuzzy-minded relativist could deny any of this.

 

And you don't really need a lawyer to tell you it's OK to say that NL told us one thing, and did another. I mean, c'mon- anyone can sue anyone else for basically anything they want, but it would be sad to think that our outlook should be solely dictated by that... doesn't leave much incentive for getting up in the morning.

 

2+2=4. There, I said it. Sue me!

[buffos]

Even aggressive advertisment is strongly prohibited in the EU.

Not misleading, or intentionally misleading ones.

 

Because go to a court an say that 1 year ago when they promised to get v1 in March and later in June, they did not know it wouldnt be ready.

 

Look, in any court, even with a judge paid by NL, the verdict would be against them. They had made SOOOO many illegal action, so many, that noone can overlook. They are not trustworthy. And they will pay it in the long run.

[AdamT]

Hey Buffos, I thought you were taking some sort of consumer action in the EU. What ever became of that?

[leoA4D]

Loads of people could give a rats *ss what we've been through.

 

Again, I agree Fran.

 

But then again, I would not recommend to my clients a contractor that does beautiful work but neglects the schedule and submits problematic invoices without informing the client of the shortcomings.

 

(No more from me on this subject.)

[AdamT]

But then again, I would not recommend to my clients a contractor that does beautiful work but neglects the schedule and submits problematic invoices without informing the client of the shortcomings.

Good point. "Have a look at this beautiful portfolio. Never mind that the fellow hasn't made a single deadline in the last two years!"

[bytor]

Hi,

Third party innocent bystander here - did not (thankfully) jump on the Maxwell rollercoaster, but have followed this saga through the various newsgroups. As bad as NL has been conducting itself - whenever V1 is released, it does deserve an "unbiased" review. It would be totally fair to include a comparison in the review of the V1 shipping features VS. what was promised / marketed for the Beta or when it was first available for pre-purchase. I am curious if there is an old review out there somewhere for comparison?

While all of the bad vibes around the Archviz community are well deserved for NL - it has definitely clouded the perspective for most. Let the "shipping" product (v1.0?) stand or fall on it's own. My suspicions are that it will fall way short of expectations. And if you peel away all of the "workarounds" and "will be part of a free 1.x upgrade release" features, you will have a product that is not likely worthy of all the attention it has been getting.

As a Lightscape owner/user, I was really hoping for the best for Maxwell, but it simply has not come to fruition. I saw some nice earlier images, but seriously - 9 hrs. + for those medium res grainy images lately? For those of you that feel a need to protect fellow arch vizzers from the likes of NL - any of us worth a grain have come across enough info on the various forums to be well aware of the potential pitfalls of doing business with NL.

Sorry for this message coming from a Maxwell outsider like me, but I am a little frustrated that there was never this much effort / attention / passion expended on trying to save lightscape when it was being killed by Autodesk.

Bytor

[Devin Johnston]

As a third party bystander you seem to be pretty down on Maxwell IMO. I agree that Maxwell may not take off like a rocket but what makes you say that "My suspicions are that it will fall way short of expectations"? I'll admit that there are things missing from V1 that should be there but the features that it's coming out with do seem to be right on target for the market their aiming for.

[Bongo51]

on the review thing..

 

unbiased review... of course! I for one expect an unbiased and accurate review of anything I read. Jeff mentioned "3D world" I trust that mag, and if I read a review in there (and there has been one of maxwell already) I tend to give it a lot of weight.

 

Having said that. I would also like to know what kind of production history a product has experienced if relevant. ie. If it took them almost 2 years longer then promised, that IS important for me, even for V4, 5, 6... since, when you buy a license (this being non-transferable and non-refundable, which is another mention-worthy point) I want to know how I will be treated with updates, and whether I can expect poor tech support or outstanding. The manner in which NL has decided to conduct themselves with the development of maxwell to the end result of V1 is very much as important as how they proceed from here, since it indicates the LIKELYHOOD of how this company will treat me as a purchaser of V1 software.

 

If I were looking at purchasing fPrime, for example. I would want to know about the company... worley. Now, I have had dealings with them in the past, and am fairly confident that they are a pretty honest and responsible company. That weighs TREMENDOUSLY in my buying decision. If had trustworthy info (like a trusted mag review) telling me that Worley missed 10 deadlines, were suspected of posting erronious info on their website, had a non-transfer/return on the license, etc. etc... essentially the NL story.. I may actually decide NOT to purchase fPrime... and if I DID purchase it, it would be with all the facts and I would be prepared for long waits between updates, sluggish or non-existant tech support... but it's my right as a consumer to know all reasonable and pertinent details about software that I'm putting my cash down for.

[Bongo51]

bytor,

 

no.. it's nice sometimes to hear someone else who notices this stuff... sometimes we need to be reminded that we are not crazy, and this stuff really is unacceptable to others.