Render Blades anyone?

[MegaPixel]

I finally have an opportunity to purchase some "dedicated" rendering resources for the office farm at work. Does anyone here have any personal experience with Render Blades from BOXX Tech. or maybe renderdrives from ARTVPS or any other specialized, scalable solutions? I'm currently a MAX 8 user farming with Backburner.

 

Anything from the peanut gallery would help at this point, even a link or two to point me towards another direction of research would be great. Thanks guys - MegaPixel

[Chad Warner]

As far as I know, the render drives use a proprietary method for raytracing and whatnot....so I personally wouldn't go that route. I do know that Boxx makes a good machine, so I would like into something like that for dedicated rendering purposes. If you are more adventurous, you can also build your own for less cost, but more hassle.

 

And if you're interested, my office has a few 1u render servers (similar to the boxx ones) that are dual 1.4 ghz pentiums with 2 gbs of ram we're trying to get rid of. Send me a PM if you like.

[tecton3d]

And if you're interested, my office has a few 1u render servers (similar to the boxx ones) that are dual 1.4 ghz pentiums with 2 gbs of ram we're trying to get rid of. Send me a PM if you like.

 

you have a PM!

 

I finally have an opportunity to purchase some "dedicated" rendering resources for the office farm at work. Does anyone here have any personal experience with Render Blades from BOXX Tech. or maybe renderdrives from ARTVPS or any other specialized, scalable solutions? I'm currently a MAX 8 user farming with Backburner.

Anything from the peanut gallery would help at this point, even a link or two to point me towards another direction of research would be great. Thanks guys - MegaPixel

 

I have BOXX workstation and can vouch for thier quality. As expected, it's super fast and stable out of the box(x)!

 

Make sure you price the ArtVPS stuff... it may prove to be prohibitively expensive!

[AJLynn]

ArtVPS gives you a different render engine to go with the proprietary hardware, so be warned, you'd have more software to learn. As far as PC hardware for farms, you can get just about anything. Rackmount dual-dual opterons may give you the best price/performance/space these days. Backburner will work for that, or something using distributed bucket rendering like Vray Spawner or mental ray's raysat or even Backburner's split scanlines feature, if you want to accelerate stills.

[MegaPixel]

Thanks Guys. I've compiled a list here of links to what I think are viable Blade Manufacturer websites that offer 1U options between $2000 and $3000. I'm still filtering through the info. but it looks like more or less, everyone has a similar system to offer. For what it's worth:

 

BOXX Technologies - http://www.boxxtech.com

 

Alienware - http://www.alienware.com

 

DELL - http://www.dell.com

 

Verari Systems - http://www.verari.com

 

HP - http://www.hp.com

 

IBM - http://www.ibm.com

 

 

And then some other options:

 

Sun Microsystems - http://www.sun.com

 

ARTVPS - http://www.renderdrive.com

[moshenko]

Be aware that Dell (and probably IBM and HP) sells server-only boxes, meaning that they don't come with - nor are they certified to run - a non-server OS. Installing something like Windows XP Pro on one of those could be a challenge and, in the case of Dell at least, will void your warranty and support should something go wrong.

[luckytohaveher]

Unless you use a great deal of RPC content I would recommend a PURE Card from ARTVPS. They are around 12 PCs worth of Wintel horsepower and cost around $3K. They just inked a deal with Mental Images. See:

 

http://www.artvps.com/news.16.htm

and

http://www.artvps.com/page/15/pure.htm

and

http://www.artvps.com/gallery/1/architecture.htm

 

The cool part is if you need more power later, just slap another PURE in the system and you get 24 PCs worth of power. It has processors each with two cores, so that is 32 cores -- all for the price of a single server.

 

They now have great GI, HDRI, scalability, and support. Go for it--you won't regret it.

[tecton3d]

Unless you use a great deal of RPC content I would recommend a PURE Card from ARTVPS. They are around 12 PCs worth of Wintel horsepower and cost around $3K. They just inked a deal with Mental Images. See:

http://www.artvps.com/news.16.htm

and

http://www.artvps.com/page/15/pure.htm

and

http://www.artvps.com/gallery/1/architecture.htm

The cool part is if you need more power later, just slap another PURE in the system and you get 24 PCs worth of power. It has processors each with two cores, so that is 32 cores -- all for the price of a single server.

They now have great GI, HDRI, scalability, and support. Go for it--you won't regret it.

 

nice post!

 

I have always wondered how the Pure pieces actually compared to Window+intel and Windows+AMD packages... since I have a couple (3) empty PCI-X slots on my K8WE (s2895)! Do you mind sharing how you come about with this info? Could you compare the Pure cards to say an Athlon X2 3800 rig?

 

cheers!

 

p.s. In the "architecture" gallery, I have seem the classroom image on the Maxwell site and thought it looked good until I saw the ART VPS version!

[luckytohaveher]

If you are looking to render, there is simply nothing faster then the ARTVPS solution if you are not using a ton of RPCs. They have done an amazing level of improvement over the last couple of years.

 

It all comes down to real estate. How much of an AMD or Intel processor are you actually using when you render? Probably about 0.1% + the on-chip cache. They are flexible but EXTREMELY inefficient in terms of real estate on the chip. As a result, you need to spend about $5K to $10K to get a moderate level of professional performance. An acre of silicon costs about a million dollars. With the ARTVPS solution, it is all dedicated silicon at 96% or better silicon real estate effiicientcy.

 

Once you figure in the cost of routers, OS patches, network problems, the booting problems, et.al. the server/node/system solution is very expensive. What is your time worth? I regularly render high-res previews to check my work. The new mental images possibility is highly exciting. Just imagine what they could do with dedicated hardware. If you could output three more renderings a year, your marginal revenue would cover the entire cost of the PURE solution. That is very realistic.

 

The only real difficulty I have seen is in RPCs. If you have 100 RPCs in a exterior scene it will take time and cross cancel the rendering efficiency because they are treated as 'custom maps' and must be ripped individually.

Proprietary: Everything is proprietary. VRAY, Brazil, etc. As soon as you purchase a professional rendering system you are by neccessity going to be dependent on a plug-in, rendering solution, etc. This just the nature of trying to world-class. Nobody who is truly serious is going to use straight MAX, VIZ, or whatever.

 

If you want speed, for the price of one high end server, buy two PUREs slap it in a system, and be done with it... BTW: If you don't go exotic on the materials, etc. you can still render to the scanline or other system if need be. In other words, you can use it just for the speed if you want. However, once you get area lights, in hardware, you WILL NEVER GO BACK!

[tecton3d]

If you are looking to render, there is simply nothing faster then the ARTVPS solution if you are not using a ton of RPCs. They have done an amazing level of improvement over the last couple of years.

It all comes down to real estate. How much of an AMD or Intel processor are you actually using when you render? Probably about 0.1% + the on-chip cache. They are flexible but EXTREMELY inefficient in terms of real estate on the chip. As a result, you need to spend about $5K to $10K to get a moderate level of professional performance. An acre of silicon costs about a million dollars. With the ARTVPS solution, it is all dedicated silicon at 96% or better silicon real estate effiicientcy.

The only real difficulty I have seen is in RPCs. If you have 100 RPCs in a exterior scene it will take time and cross cancel the rendering efficiency because they are treated as 'custom maps' and must be ripped individually.

Proprietary: Everything is proprietary. VRAY, Brazil, etc. As soon as you purchase a professional rendering system you are by neccessity going to be dependent on a plug-in, rendering solution, etc. This just the nature of trying to world-class. Nobody who is truly serious is going to use straight MAX, VIZ, or whatever.

If you want speed, for the price of one high end server, buy two PUREs slap it in a system, and be done with it... BTW: If you don't go exotic on the materials, etc. you can still render to the scanline or other system if need be. In other words, you can use it just for the speed if you want. However, once you get area lights, in hardware, you WILL NEVER GO BACK!

 

thanks Ted!

 

I'm checking into how my BOXX can handle the PURE's and will post what I find out. I also asked the art vps guys if there is a limit to having only 2 pure cards in a system or if you could have more (of course assuming you have the empty motherboard slots).

 

how does the RenderPipe software operate whithin VIZ/Max? Is it as simple as checking a box in the render dialogue menu or is more akin to backburner...?

 

Have you done animations with the ART-VPS stuff? I can't dig up any examples on thier website.

 

Once you figure in the cost of routers, OS patches, network problems, the booting problems, et.al. the server/node/system solution is very expensive. What is your time worth? I regularly render high-res previews to check my work. The new mental images possibility is highly exciting. Just imagine what they could do with dedicated hardware. If you could output three more renderings a year, your marginal revenue would cover the entire cost of the PURE solution. That is very realistic.

 

If I can snag 2 PURE's and plug into my workstation... I could have all the Images (and more) I need for my M.Arch. Thesis and Portfolio done in at least half the time, plus I won't have to build, overclock, and admin all the systems I was planning on building!! A much welcomed simplification!

[luckytohaveher]

1.) if there is a limit to having only 2 pure cards in a system or if you could have more (of course assuming you have the empty motherboard slots).

2.) how does the RenderPipe software operate whithin VIZ/Max? Is it as simple as checking a box in the render dialogue menu or is more akin to backburner...?

 

3.) Have you done animations with the ART-VPS stuff? I can't dig up any examples on thier website.

 

4.) If I can snag 2 PURE's and plug into my workstation... I could have all the Images (and more) I need for my M.Arch. Thesis and Portfolio done in at least half the time, plus I won't have to build, overclock, and admin all the systems I was planning on building!! A much welcomed simplification!

 

1a.) There is a limit on the driver side with the PUREs of two per station. However, at 24 PCs worth of power, it should be fine. Remember you have to feed all those cores with the data dump from MAX through the Wintel setup. There is a balancing issue at hand there. They are also in the business of selling RENDERDRIVES!

 

2a.) It is exactly (almost) like the mental images plugin, or Brazil, or VRAY. The technique used to get the data from MAX to the PURE is the same as getting it from MAX to any plug-in renderer. You can also render across the network to the device just like a printer server. If you need more horsepower later (which I SERIOUSLY doubt), you can get another system and just dump data to the existing ip address you have. The rest is cake.

 

3a.) Unfortunately, all of my work is copyrighted by my employers and I don't feel like doing the deposition. Sorry!

 

4a.) I think you have got it! The lights are on!!! If you don't have to do all the setup and work and expense, you can then focus on the product, model, lighting, etc.

 

5a.) Special bonus: Once you get the PUREs in place for your exterior shots, setup 4 to 8 huge area lights with raytraced shadows approximately 2000'x200'x1000' at equal cardinal directions. Then set the default lighting to about 20-30%. Then setup a 'sun' with a point light with raytraced shadows. What will you get? Something very close to an HDRI solution without any of the setup, complexity, and it will be VERY fast. Good luck!

[moshenko]

I have never tried a PURE card, so any opinion I have on this subject is strictly acedemic. But I would like to say something about this:

 

Proprietary: Everything is proprietary. VRAY, Brazil, etc. As soon as you purchase a professional rendering system you are by neccessity going to be dependent on a plug-in, rendering solution, etc. This just the nature of trying to world-class. Nobody who is truly serious is going to use straight MAX, VIZ, or whatever.

 

While this is true - all rendering plugins are proprietary - there is one important distinction: the other common rendering plugins are not tied to proprietary hardware. Hardware fails, and the fact that other plugins can be used on practically any available machine is something that shouldn't be lumped into the same category of proprietariness (is that a word? ). If you are running a PURE solution, doesn't that mean that you'd have to have one in your laptop, on your computer at home, or any other computer/location that you need to work in? Plus, what if it turns out that the speed isn't enough? How easy is it to upgrade in a pinch? The plugin world of V-Ray, Brazil, et al have render farms that can be used when things get hairy; is there a PURE farm somewhere that users could utilize? Beyond hardware, one needs to look closely at one's current workflow and find out if the PURE solution accomodates all of the things that many Max/other plugin users take for granted such as Matte/Shadow materials, include/exclude features, network rendering, parameter animation, GI animation solutions, etc. How does the PURE solution stack up against these things?

 

I'm not trying to discourage against a solution with which I have no experience, just making a case for more investigation beyond whether or not one is using a ton of RPC's. The problem I can see is that there is no easy way to demo a PURE card and do some investigation on these things. Maybe lukcytohaveher could expand on some of these issues?

[tecton3d]

1a.) There is a limit on the driver side with the PUREs of two per station. However, at 24 PCs worth of power, it should be fine. Remember you have to feed all those cores with the data dump from MAX through the Wintel setup. There is a balancing issue at hand there. They are also in the business of selling RENDERDRIVES!

2a.) It is exactly (almost) like the mental images plugin, or Brazil, or VRAY. The technique used to get the data from MAX to the PURE is the same as getting it from MAX to any plug-in renderer. You can also render across the network to the device just like a printer server. If you need more horsepower later (which I SERIOUSLY doubt), you can get another system and just dump data to the existing ip address you have. The rest is cake.

3a.) Unfortunately, all of my work is copyrighted by my employers and I don't feel like doing the deposition. Sorry!

4a.) I think you have got it! The lights are on!!! If you don't have to do all the setup and work and expense, you can then focus on the product, model, lighting, etc.

5a.) Special bonus: Once you get the PUREs in place for your exterior shots, setup 4 to 8 huge area lights with raytraced shadows approximately 2000'x200'x1000' at equal cardinal directions. Then set the default lighting to about 20-30%. Then setup a 'sun' with a point light with raytraced shadows. What will you get? Something very close to an HDRI solution without any of the setup, complexity, and it will be VERY fast. Good luck!

 

thanks again Ted - Unfortunately, I can't afford a Renderdrive... I think the Pure's will work for now.

 

Moshenko has a valid point about software + the redundancy of that type of system... it is nice, that if something (mobo, fried cpu, psu) fails you simply run it from another machine... and have access to the same renderer you are familiar with and know the results you'll end up with. But, in defense of the ART-VPS stuff, it's much more simple to setup and maintain and the reduced hassle may be well worth it to some... I'd probably fall into that category.

 

All things considered... the Renderdrive would be the ideal setup... it's external and if a workstation fails your rendering engine is not compromised... hell you could send the file from a secretaries machine or a laptop if need be.

 

About workflow... I wonder how they handle huge scenes... 1,000,000 + poly's?

[3dp]

workflow and poly counts

well i use the renderdrives not the pure cards and most of my work runs to the 3 - 4 million polys once i pop in a few 3d trees (unlike some i try and pull back from trying to be too real for now at least)

 

what else can i say not cheap but reliable (i still have a couple of rd2000's from 1999 that i still use for animation work how many here are still employing the p2 233 mhz workstation) and it will allow you to develop a style too

 

vray looks like vray unless it's in the hands of a skilled op

 

they do have a gi solution but to be honest it's too slow for real production just now but if you are working on external images you can get away with it via hdri and some clever bounce lights

 

i'm biased because i've used them for years and they never let me down (well nearly never)

how serious are you

add up the cost a boxx os render engine lic networking issues upgrades etc times that by 4 for eaxmple and a rd seems to be a good deal

ok they don't do toon shading (but they can if you mess with renderman shaders

 

i've done pc renderfarm and renderdrive farm - i still have the rd's and the pc's went to ebay - thats syas it for me

[tecton3d]

workflow and poly counts

well i use the renderdrives not the pure cards and most of my work runs to the 3 - 4 million polys once i pop in a few 3d trees (unlike some i try and pull back from trying to be too real for now at least)

what else can i say not cheap but reliable (i still have a couple of rd2000's from 1999 that i still use for animation work how many here are still employing the p2 233 mhz workstation) and it will allow you to develop a style too

vray looks like vray unless it's in the hands of a skilled op

they do have a gi solution but to be honest it's too slow for real production just now but if you are working on external images you can get away with it via hdri and some clever bounce lights

i'm biased because i've used them for years and they never let me down (well nearly never)

how serious are you

add up the cost a boxx os render engine lic networking issues upgrades etc times that by 4 for eaxmple and a rd seems to be a good deal

ok they don't do toon shading (but they can if you mess with renderman shaders

i've done pc renderfarm and renderdrive farm - i still have the rd's and the pc's went to ebay - thats syas it for me

. . . thats syas it for me too!

[slants]

call the guys @ ictech.ca ... they have some pretty sewwt solutions and for pretty good prices ... they make these types of solutions for all the big film production houses and tv networks across the country (canada) ... i'm curretly running a 4 blade server and am so happy with it that i'll probably get another 4 next month

[tecton3d]

call the guys @ ictech.ca ... they have some pretty sewwt solutions and for pretty good prices ... they make these types of solutions for all the big film production houses and tv networks across the country (canada) ... i'm curretly running a 4 blade server and am so happy with it that i'll probably get another 4 next month

 

Thanks, I've mailed them to get a price list of their various configurations since the website is still under const. and will post what I find.

 

I heard back from ART-VPS and it's interesting that they don't warranty 2 PURE cards in a single machine....

 

"We cannot stop anyone putting in more than one card but because we have to warranty our products to work in a pretty much every kind of PC chassis and still work efficiently we will only do that with the one Pure card.

As is say this doesn’t mean that you cannot do it, just that we will not be responsible for any issues related to your machine malfunctioning should this be traced back to the cards should there be more than one installed. I’m sure you can understand this"

 

makes sense, but then the logistical "tidiness" of the PURE's come into question. I guess if you already had an extra machine lying around with an empty PCI-X slot then you're in business, but if not - well, just build a cheapie and treat it like a 'node... this is probably best anyways to build a little redundancy into the system.

 

cheers!

[luckytohaveher]

I guess if you already had an extra machine lying around with an empty PCI-X slot then you're in business, but if not - well, just build a cheapie and treat it like a 'node... this is probably best anyways to build a little redundancy into the system.

cheers![/QUOTE]

 

I did have a A350 core go bad on me (after the warranty was not in effect). I let the machine get too hot! After an email to then they gave me a setvar variable that let me disable the individual core on one of the chips on one of the machines. Once I went down to the computer store and spent $7 on a Ram heatsink with double sided tape I had no more issues. So the upside is the PUREs are realatively bullet proof. The chances of having a whole card fry are pretty minimal.

 

Scaleability is a big question. It is a downside. But then again, with 24 Pcs with the little expense required, you can scale for around $3K...

 

Another example. I put a card in another CAD machine in my office. The user was running outlook, autocad, and more. He couldn't even tell I was there! The card has it's own ram, processor, asics, etc. Once you are in IP mode across the network -- the rest is cake.

 

Another example. Once I was working on a complex rendering with a dead line. I had to work in another county due to some emergency issues. I was able to split-frame in one county with 3 PURE cards and send the other part of the frame across the WAN to another county with an RD3000 and the frame returned at the same time, no delay, no hold-up, and super FAST!!!