jsageheart Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 I am with a Arch. Viz firm that is just getting off the ground, and am concerned about pricing our bids consistant with others in the field. I am inviting any feedback other freelancers and/or design firms have with regards to how they arrive at the price of their bids. Currently, we estimate the amount of time to produce an image by an hourly rate- however, I am even interested in knowing if our hourly rate is in line with the rest of the industry. Is there a benchmark or range that is common knowledge with regards to the cost of Arch. Viz services? Your feedback is grately appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jntdigital Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 industry standard figures i found very hard to find. There is an industry survey conduted recently, but i cant find the results. i found this article to be useful, it may help you. http://www.cgarchitect.com/upclose/article2_DW.asp http://www.cgarchitect.com/upclose/article3_DW.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Mann Posted March 19, 2006 Share Posted March 19, 2006 I am even interested in knowing if our hourly rate is in line with the rest of the industry. Nobody ever says what their rate actually is when asking everybody else what theirs is. I quote a lump sum based on how many days I think the job will take using a daily rate. I haven't yet come across a client that would run with a daily rate, let alone an hourly rate. They want to know for sure how much the job is going to cost from the outset. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alias_marks Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 I've just written the short below regarding your question (by coincidence) and thought it may be useful. I'm in the same boat as the previous two responses. Every job is different case by case and there is no one size fits all solution. However I know one thing for sure and that is to quote a flat rate per job as opposed to an hourly rate. From experience, I've found this was not the way to go. --------VizualJourney Blog Entry-------- I’m constantly coming across questions in the 3D world requesting help on how to price services. Price to high and you may scare away valuable connections for the future. Price to low and your work won’t be respected, and furthermore, from that point on, that client will always expect that level of work for that price. A good starting point for defining what your pricing should be is in a book done by the Graphic Artists Guild called Graphic Artists Guild Handbook of Pricing and Ethical Guidelines. After much research I’ve found that everyone has a different answer for different types of projects, and this book is a good reference for where to start. Of course you will have to add or subtract based on different factors specific to your unique project. I do think that this book tends to inflate the pricing a little, but this is to be expected from the Guild to help raise the value of the Graphic Design Industry. Despite its hideous cover and frequent misspellings, it covers a lot of ground for all projects ranging from map design and comic book illustration to computer animation and video production. It also has some great templates for different types of contracts that you can tailor to your specific needs. However, I think contracts done in the wrong way can get a relationship off on the wrong foot, so be sure to be careful with you wording and presentation of these legal documents. It’s priced at 22 Bucks over at Amazon which is well worth it if it ends up getting you that extra stack of high society. Good Luck Jennifer! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Alexander Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 Jennifer, "competitive shop" your local competition, if you dare . Your localality's average pricing is in that information. You need to be cost effective there to get off the ground, unless you've been networking 'globally'. WDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsageheart Posted March 20, 2006 Author Share Posted March 20, 2006 Thank you all for your feedback. Honestly, I was hoping to get an idea of what the average daily/hourly rate is for those of us in the US. David Wright's articles are great and are in line with how we arrived at how we determine a quote, however, I am really wanting to know more specifically what others are charging (daily/hourly) more or less. Getting quotes from other firms in my area seems smart, but as one of you mentioned... do it "if I dare". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlytE Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 If 'competitive shopping' means phoning up other firms pretending to be in need of business in order to get a price quote, I would STRONGLY advise against it. Apart from the ethics of it, if the competition ever find out that it was you phoning them, then in a business as tightnit as archvis, you could find your company's reputation tarnished. There is also the risk that the competition will take umbrage and make it their business to 'return the favour' by giving all your clients a call and undercutting you, which believe me does happen. My advice is to stick to asking on these kind of forums and such, less risky and more likely to yield better results! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsageheart Posted March 20, 2006 Author Share Posted March 20, 2006 After a day of scouring these forums, I found a thread started 4 years ago that dared to be as specific as I was looking for- THANK YOU!!! http://www.cgarchitect.com/vb/showthread.php?t=580&highlight=david+wright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsageheart Posted March 20, 2006 Author Share Posted March 20, 2006 Correction- it was startewed 2 years ago- And still very valuable!!! Thank you all who contributed!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Jennifer, Once we get at least 2000 respondants to our current salary survey (see the sticky post in the General forum), I will release hourly rates for all of the US states that have replied. It only launched yesterday and we almost have 600, although not all completed the survey in its entirety. Ironically, many stopped as soon as they were asked information about their salary and hourly rates. Once I get at least 2000 who have completed the entire survey (I expect that to happen sometime by mid April), you'll have the best data that is currently available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsageheart Posted March 21, 2006 Author Share Posted March 21, 2006 I am very much looking forward to the results of the survey and for what it is worth, with my being so new in the filed, I did complete the survery on behalf of our firm. Jeff, I want to thank you sincerely for your website here- the information, resources, and newfound "friendships" have been very helpful and supportive and I am now a deovtee of your site. Cheers to you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 I am very much looking forward to the results of the survey and for what it is worth, with my being so new in the filed, I did complete the survery on behalf of our firm. Jeff, I want to thank you sincerely for your website here- the information, resources, and newfound "friendships" have been very helpful and supportive and I am now a deovtee of your site. Cheers to you! Thanks Jennifer, glad to have you as a member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Mann Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 If 'competitive shopping' means phoning up other firms pretending to be in need of business in order to get a price quote, I would STRONGLY advise against it. Apart from the ethics of it, if the competition ever find out that it was you phoning them, then in a business as tightnit as archvis, you could find your company's reputation tarnished. Yeah I get this happen quite a lot. I have even caught people out without meaning to by calling back to clarify a detail for a quote and having them answer the phone using their company name. I have even recognised their own names on occasion. Its underhand, sneaky and a complete waste of my time. I stopped responding to enquiries from Yahoo and Hotmail accounts a long time ago because of this. Oh and a tip for anybody that does try and do this using a yahoo or hotmail type account - best not use your real name when setting up the e-mail account as that can be a giveaway. "Champion3D"...uh-huh. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat@MDI-Digital Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Yeah I get this happen quite a lot. I have even caught people out without meaning to by calling back to clarify a detail for a quote and having them answer the phone using their company name. I have even recognised their own names on occasion. Its underhand, sneaky and a complete waste of my time. I stopped responding to enquiries from Yahoo and Hotmail accounts a long time ago because of this. Oh and a tip for anybody that does try and do this using a yahoo or hotmail type account - best not use your real name when setting up the e-mail account as that can be a giveaway. "Champion3D"...uh-huh. Jim if people are that stupid they deserve to be caught. Its intresting you have stopped talking to people with free email accounts, i get these from time to time and I always reply to them...I never get anywork from them so maybe your right. I suppose I/you could ask for the tel No and say you will call them to discuss the project, you might be able to catch them out, or google there Tel No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jow Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 interesting points,on the other hand finding out the going rate is impossible without some kind of market research. say you start up business charging say £150 per viz,and everybody is charging say £500 per,you are screwed and everyone else,you arn't making the full amount you could be and you are under cutting everyone else.... sticky one that!...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat@MDI-Digital Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 i agree, it is a almost impossible thing to find out..But there are ways. For examples, Some of my clients tell me what other companys are charging for work quite openly sometimes. Of course they could be doing this to get cheaper work out of me but im busy enough not to drop my costs, and also, the companys I work for couldn't care less what I charge because the costs get passed onto the end client and not them, and in some cases they add a handling charge on top of what I charge so they make more cash out of it anyway . Also, I know that what I charge is (for the most part) is average, I know of a studio that charges about 20% more than I do (I know this because I used to work for them) and i also know of a few (one man) studios that charge alot (50% sometimes) less than I do. I would stress that phoning up a studio, claiming to be a client and asking for costs is a really stupid thing to do. saying all that though, most of the arch work I do is housing developments for people like George Wimpy, Im not to knowledgeable on what the going costs are for a large block of flats/offices (see Jim Mann site) and anything else that isn't a 4 bedroom house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Denby Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 I stopped responding to enquiries from Yahoo and Hotmail accounts a long time ago because of this. Jim Me too, for the same reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Matthews Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 I do a few visualizations a year and almost all of my clients are differet in terms of financial support. I try to stay consistant by charging a modeling fee seperate from a rendering/staging fee. I charge a little bit below what people are charging around here and it seems to work pretty well. There is a happy medium between charging what you think your services are worth and reducing your hourly to accomodate a client that does not have the type of financial support as another. If you work with your client to negotiate a suitable fee then your name will be spread around like wild fire. There is a caution in this however in that repeat customers that you negotiated with will want all of your renderings at that price. Rememer though that sometimes you might take a loss when it comes to a project but if it is done for the right client they will remember you when it comes to the mega money projects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Some of my clients tell me what other companys are charging for work quite openly sometimes. Of course they could be doing this to get cheaper work out of me but im busy enough not to drop my costs If I'm told that someone else can do as good a job for a lot less money by a client, I tell them that they are getting a great deal and should go with that other firm. And since every project is unique, its hard to just give a generic cost estimate over the phone or by email. I like to see the project first. In that earlier thread I mentioned starting work for a regular client only to find the project was much more ornate than their usual stuff, so by not seeing it before giving a number I cost myself profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlytE Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 interesting points,on the other hand finding out the going rate is impossible without some kind of market research. say you start up business charging say £150 per viz,and everybody is charging say £500 per,you are screwed and everyone else,you arn't making the full amount you could be and you are under cutting everyone else.... sticky one that!...... What may be a possibility (and this is only a suggestion off the top of my head)... is once you are looking at the possibility of a job, out source part of the project to someone else to help you get it done. Ok yes it could mean you get a much smaller cut of the final fee because you have to pay your 'hired help' but it gives you a legitimate way of seeing how much other people charge without using underhand tactics and wasting their time. It also may make you more contacts in the industry and you may even learn a bit more about your local competition... just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaron-cds Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 What may be a possibility (and this is only a suggestion off the top of my head)... is once you are looking at the possibility of a job, out source part of the project to someone else to help you get it done. Ok yes it could mean you get a much smaller cut of the final fee because you have to pay your 'hired help' but it gives you a legitimate way of seeing how much other people charge without using underhand tactics and wasting their time. It also may make you more contacts in the industry and you may even learn a bit more about your local competition... just a thought. Excellent suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clausbang Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 We have a rule of thumb that say modelling cost times 3. Then the price can be higher or lower depending on the competition and the client. Here a lot of softer issues play in, but it is primarily based on an evaluation of difficult the client is to work with. This is for special projects. Standard projects are priced quite openly, and all our competitors know them - and we know most theirs. You can go to www.cubicasa.com and chose one of the franchisee countries. They all have price calculator where you can calculate a price according to the project size. We don't have any US partners yet, so you will have to do a little calculation to get it into USD. /Claus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Mann Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 out source part of the project to someone else to help you get it done. Great in theory but can become a pain to manage and take up much more of your own time than you first anticipate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Mann Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 i get these from time to time and I always reply to them... I did ponder whether this was wise but then I figured that nowadays, anyone who won't pay a few quid each month for their own domain and e-mail address isn't quite there in terms of business. ...I never get anywork from them so maybe your right. I suppose I/you could ask for the tel No and say you will call them to discuss the project, you might be able to catch them out, or google there Tel No. I did start doing this too and it is amazing how good a filter it is turning out to be. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlytE Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Great in theory but can become a pain to manage and take up much more of your own time than you first anticipate. Possibly but you would only have to do it once, and would give you an idea how to go about it managing outsourced projects later on in the game when you REALLY need it...?? *shrugs* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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