Am I nuts to try this?

[josephus]

OK, we (2-man arch firm) just got a contract to do four 2-1/2 to 3 minute animations (walk-thru/fly-through) of the model home interiors for a residential development we designed. We did the exterior still renders successfully with FormZ and rendered in FZ Renderzone (separate contract).

 

We're doing the modeling of the interior arch spaces in Archicad as it's MUCH faster to do it in AC than FormZ (we recently switched to Archicad, hence we have to start from scratch). We had intended to render in FormZ Renderzone and animate in FormZ. We've tested the FormZ animation part and we're fine with that. However, I'm experiencing a HUGE time impact trying to get FZRZ lighting in each room right for the animation (we've been working with FZRZ for a couple of years, so it's not like this is new to us)...and then the result is well....somewhat disappointing, especially after viewing 3DS MAX-created arch walkthroughs done by others. To some extent my picky-ness may be somewhat unnessary as it's a lot different viewing a small moving animation than a full screen fixed image.

 

Anyway, I have this fear that after we've put in an enormous amount of time in FZ/Renderzone to get the best we can out of it, that the client will not consider it "up to par" (he would be comparing it to similar ones (probably created w/MAX) that can be viewed on the web). Some of that I can compensate for with my artistic eye, but will it be enough?

 

So after very helpful replies on another thread I started re: FZ and 3DS MAX, I'm thinking of jumping into Cinema4D, and use it to render/animate for this project instead of FormZ. We have max four weeks to complete the project, and I would be jumping into a program I've never seen before. Is that nuts or not???

[DennisHolland]

It's not clever to say 'yes' to a job that doesn't fit your workflow.

 

Especially if your clients is a returning one and cannot be lost, for profit matters. Why not outsource the animation to a company dealing with that all the time? 4 weeks for a 3 minute anim is very tight. Interiors are (at PAL res) 4 to 5 minute p/f AT LEAST with GI on, in Vray with a well-prepared irr. map. In other packages it will take up to twice the amount of time needed (probably more)....

 

I know, the money is good and the challenge is there but you are better off hiring a firm with the capabilities to reach the tight deadline. Can you handle the quality of a complex interior with proper lighting and nice mapping > running smooth?

[Sindala]

I would say that's tricky. But if you want to get a grip on lighting interiors in c4d fast you could give the 3dfluff vol4 training dvd a go. Imo it's really good.

But i think you are better of taking dennis' advice. You've got a lot to learn and little time to learn it.

[Frosty]

Yes I think you're nuts to try and switch/learn software while trying to meet a 4week deadline for multiple animations. As Dennis states, hire this out.

 

There are many things that I love about FormZ but rendering is not one of them. Your intention to switch out of FormZ for rendering is probably a good one - a move I made in 1998 (to Cinema). I havent looked back, but I dont think you can do that while producing high quality work on a tight deadline.

 

If you choose to make a switch, download some demos and play. Find out which software works for you and then make your purchase.

[josephus]

How interesting to receive my first two replies from my homeland...ik ben van Haarlem.

 

Dennis. The challenge appealed to us, although it indeed is not the most clever thing I've ever done, to commit to doing something so formidable not having done it before. Being an architect and not a CG specialist, I am not familiar with all the CG-industry abbreviations...can you tell me what these mean, "at PAL res ... with GI on" ? I do have a small four-X2computer render farm, so that should speed the render time up. Re: "Can you handle the quality of a complex interior with proper lighting and nice mapping > running smooth?"...we do think so, but it's going to be some long days and eveninngs.

 

Sindala: "But i think you are better of taking dennis' advice. You've got a lot to learn and little time to learn it." Sounds like maybe for this animation we'd better stick with the program we know, and transition to C4D AFTER we've completed it.

 

Thank you (dank u) both for your replies.

[thephalinx]

I've had similar problems before...

 

the fix: show the client a preview.

 

You may be suprised at what they think or say. I hate to show a client unfinished work, but you must sometimes. Usually they have a specific style they want, and they will guide your renderings to it. They may see it, and think odd things like...I want it more yellow....

 

There is no way to read exactly what the client wants, so show them and let them tell you. If they are happy, no need to change programs. If they want it to go a certain direction...what software will do that best.

[DennisHolland]

Hi Jeff,

 

the crux here is a deadline of 4 weeks (which is as tight as my....forget it) for a 3 to 5 minutes anim that has a minimum of 4000 frames x 4 min p/f, with a choice for a particular software to make to produce this. That is pretty tricky, not the phases in between start and finish.

 

Regards,

Dennis

[AJLynn]

PAL is the spec for a European TV, e.g. the video on European DVDs is done in PAL. IIRC full PAL is 720x576 at 25 fps.

 

GI on means use global illumination - in FormZ language, you need to do a radiosity calculation.

 

C4D + Archicad is a good way to go in the future - C4D has some great animation, texturing, lighting and rendering capabilities, definitely a better rendering program than FormZ (but with a... different... set of modeling tools) and easier to learn I think than Max, but not easy enough to do all the in 4 weeks. Another thing to look at when you get the time is finalRender2 for C4D - it's very fast, has a good GI for walkthrough animations feature and can use distributed rendering on your minifarm. I saw Cebas selling a C4D basic + fR2 package deal for about $1300 - that's probably the best price/performance you'll find for what you're looking for.

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

in the US you will want to render to NTSC standards instead of PAL.

 

i am not going to say absolutly not to do this project, but it is a pretty big step, and you are likely to get very frustrated.

 

3 to 4 minutes for an interior is a very low rendering time. it is not uncommon to take 15-20 minutes per frame. i would consider hiring a RenderFarm House for the rendering of the animation.

[josephus]

Thxs all for the input. And yes, Jeff, we do intend to show the client two phases, first the interior architecture with general lighting (no furniture) for general wall/ceiling color and floor material approvals, as well as to review the animation path. After that the full animation.

 

Based on y'alls (a Tennessee idiom:) feedback, we're going to stay with FormZ Renderzone for the render and not make the nutsy change at this time....later!!!! We're able to get acceptable interior lighting by tweaking the lights (just takes soooooo much time!), but as we're getting the "hang of it", it is going faster.

 

After this project I will invest in C4D and when I am comfortable in it will very likely go directly from my Archicad model to C4D.

 

BTW, FormZ Renderzone does include the ability to set up a render farm (no extra charge), and I will haver four Athlon X2 machines (very fast renderers) hooked up to do this "little" chore

[Frosty]

I think what Dennis is getting at is this.

3.5 mins = 210 seconds = 6300 frames

6300 frames X 4 mins = 25,200mins = 17.5 days of rendering

 

17.5 days / 4CPUs = 4.4 days of rendering.

I think you should conservatively double that. 9 Days, minimum, to render out the final sequences. Skill and user knowledge with any given software will radically impact render time and final output.

[josephus]

PAL is the spec for a European TV, e.g. the video on European DVDs is done in PAL. IIRC full PAL is 720x576 at 25 fps.

 

GI on means use global illumination - in FormZ language, you need to do a radiosity calculation.

 

C4D + Archicad is a good way to go in the future - C4D has some great animation, texturing, lighting and rendering capabilities, definitely a better rendering program than FormZ (but with a... different... set of modeling tools) and easier to learn I think than Max, but not easy enough to do all the in 4 weeks. Another thing to look at when you get the time is finalRender2 for C4D - it's very fast, has a good GI for walkthrough animations feature and can use distributed rendering on your minifarm. I saw Cebas selling a C4D basic + fR2 package deal for about $1300 - that's probably the best price/performance you'll find for what you're looking for.

 

Andrew, thx for your reply...it came in while typing the reply to the others. We will not use RZ Radiosity (not appropriate here to express my feelings about FZ Radiozity, other than I wasted my money on that feature. We do a "look alike" with fill lights...takes a while to set up, but much faster render with better results.

 

I have taken your Archicad>C4d>FinalRender suggestion to heart and will do that (but not before 4 weeks .

[josephus]

I think what Dennis is getting at is this.

3.5 mins = 210 seconds = 6300 frames

6300 frames X 4 mins = 25,200mins = 17.5 days of rendering

 

17.5 days / 4CPUs = 4.4 days of rendering.

I think you should conservatively double that. 9 Days, minimum, to render out the final sequences. Skill and user knowledge with any given software will radically impact render time and final output.

 

Thx for the reply...I do understand the math involved. The animations will be 2-1/2 to 3 minutes each, or approx 5,000 frames. We tested out a sample (not completely populated w/3D furniture and accessories, but quite a bit), and were averaging about 1 min per frame for a 600x400 image size on a single P4 3.2GHz Pentium. If it doubles to 2 min per frame, I would be looking at about a 20 hr render for my little farm. If it turns out that I seriously miscaculated, there is always on option to purchase several more machines.

 

Not doing the GI (radiosity) but simulating it decreases render time dramatically and I'm "banking" on the fact that unless you watch the same video over and over, you're not going to catch the lack of lighting nuances you get w/GI renders.

 

Thx to all for your input...it's been very helpful. I'd better get cranking here.

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

also, run a check animation about 30 seconds long to make sure you are using sufficient AA. you don't want the animation to look jaggy and jumpy.

 

AA = antialiasing

[jackb602]

Good luck with the project! I'd be curious to see the results if you're able to post them. I haven't rendered in FormZ in years, and it would be cool to see what it's capable of these days.

 

Jack

[Frosty]

also, run a check animation about 30 seconds long to make sure you are using sufficient AA. you don't want the animation to look jaggy and jumpy.

 

AA = antialiasing

Excellent point! I've seen far too many "shakey" animations simply because little to no AA was used. Scene motion blur, although a big render hit, will also add a lot. Speedier methods to achieve the same results are to render at a higher resolution (double) and downsample in post. Motion blur can often be accomplished in post as well - given a few extra frames of rendering on the begining and end.

[josephus]

Good luck with the project! I'd be curious to see the results if you're able to post them. I haven't rendered in FormZ in years, and it would be cool to see what it's capable of these days. Jack

 

Jack, I'd like to do that. I know the client is going to post these on his website asap, so I'll direct you there when it's all set. Joe H.

[josephus]

Excellent point! I've seen far too many "shakey" animations simply because little to no AA was used. Motion blur can often be accomplished in post as well - given a few extra frames of rendering on the begining and end.

 

I'll look for it after our first "run". Thx for the tip.

[Sindala]

...ik ben van Haarlem.

 

Hey me too. I'm actually considering moving back there.

I guess disney was right ... after all.

 

Good luck with your project!

[josephus]

Hey me too. I'm actually considering moving back there.

I guess disney was right ... after all.quote]

 

Really....amazing world!!! Actually was born and lived in Heemstede, but we would go to Haarlem for shopping....riding on the back of my mother's bicycle. My wife and I went back to Holland (first time back in 45 years), and all seemed so much as I remembered, all the bicycles....only thing updated is that now the people ride with one hand on the handlebar where the bell is, and the child is still on the back of the bicycle, but now the other hand is holding a cell phone .

 

What is the Disney connection to Haarlem? Walt Disney was truly an amazing man. Someone asked him once if he was worried about others copying him, and he replied, no, by the time they've copied me, I'll be on to something else . Well, nice to chat here....back to "animating". Dag

[mangalore]

I dont know if i am a little late on this. But i did a year ago a 5 minutes in lenght and 480x 360 resolution animation rendering of an architectural project from Archicad to Cinema 4D. I first tried to use Radiosity and every frame took 15 minutes for the previs and 5 minutes for the rendering equal to 20 minutes every frame. I finally did it using a technique called fake gi which consist on using multiple spots lights in a dome like shape with a low intensity and with some of them with softshadows, a technique that a guy from spain use a lot of time and it took me 4 days of rendering in a AMD Athlon XP 2400+ with 1 Gig of ram and a NVIDIA Quadro fx-600 128 mb videocard.

 

The project consisted of 11 8 story buildings with lot of cars, and people and 3D trees.

[josephus]

I dont know if i am a little late on this. But i did a year ago a 5 minutes in lenght and 480x 360 resolution animation rendering of an architectural project from Archicad to Cinema 4D. I first tried to use Radiosity and every frame took 15 minutes for the previs and 5 minutes for the rendering equal to 20 minutes every frame. I finally did it using a technique called fake gi which consist on using multiple spots lights in a dome like shape with a low intensity and with some of them with softshadows, a technique that a guy from spain use a lot of time and it took me 4 days of rendering in a AMD Athlon XP 2400+ with 1 Gig of ram and a NVIDIA Quadro fx-600 128 mb videocard.

 

The project consisted of 11 8 story buildings with lot of cars, and people and 3D trees.

 

Ivan, thx for the post. We are already 50% into the project and decided not to swtich software at this time. The render time you mention is VERY fast, a little over 1/2 minute each for a single machine. I'm using 4 Athlon X2 3800's networked and they're doing the renders in about the same time. I'm using FormZ Renderzone and have tried to set up a GI look-alike which is not going to be considered great work but okay for the present time/situation. These are interior animations of entire houses, so the light setup time is rather huge. There is supposed to be an announcement coming up within the next couple of months for a higher quality plug-in for FormZ (besides Maxwell which is out of the question for animations), so I might wait to see who's coming "on board", although I'm quite inclined at this time to jump ship to C4D since there seems to be a good workflow between it and Archicad. I'm glad to hear that a Vray plug-in is in the works for C4D.

[kuneho]

Interesting post. Last month was a busy week for our firm. We had been working on a recreation center for about 5 years already , and it was going to be finished soon. 2 weeks before opening/ ribbon cutting, they asked us to make a walk through animation interior and exterior. I thought that was nuts. They wanted stuff done before opening so they can advertize the center. It took me about 1 hour to calculate if it was possible. It was a no go. I told them about the amount of detail and lighting complexities involved. Also I warned them about computer crashes etc. In the end, we didn't even have time to make still renderings for them. Even though we've been rendering their project for the last 5 years, our firm just got too busy with newer, and much important project. So the client just hired someone else to model and render their center. In the end, you just blame them for the tight deadline. Guess what, after those 2 weeks, things got slow in the office and there was really nothing to do. I was like, oh man, now what. It's just bad timing, I guess.

 

Oh, back to animation, even full time animation studios avoid using radiosity. Global illumination, or just making many many tiny little lights to simulate radiosity is good enough.

[josephus]

....Oh, back to animation, even full time animation studios avoid using radiosity. Global illumination, or just making many many tiny little lights to simulate radiosity is good enough.

 

What's the difference between radiosity and GI (without getting too technical)?

 

ps We're not quite going to make the deadline (either), but I knew there was some "leeway" with the client...enough to make it happen, and yes, we would have also have had to sit here w/not much to do, now we're looking forward to getting a regular night's sleep .

[manta]

Well GI is Generalized term, and radiosity is a Technique, that I'm not all that sure I fully understand, but the nice thing about radiosity is that once its calculated, you can just render to you hearts desire, beacause the lighting info is now contained within the mesh itself, with other GI Techniques they are view dependent, so they must be calculated frame by frame...

 

If i'm wrong feel free to correct me, thats just the way I've always thought...

 

Lightscape used radiosity, and Max and Viz also use it, but I really don't think alot of people use it anymore, could be wrong about that too...