arch viz stagnation

[mahorela]

Hi to all.

 

I am currently working on some new material for my portfolio and this is largely animation based. I was reworking an old model I had used in the past of an entrance way to a resort that is big on foliage. So it got me to thinking about wind animation in trees and how cool it would be to have that in a archviz render. So some volume select, flex modifier, wind object and point cache later I have fully animated trees and plants.

 

When I first got into archviz I saw alot of animations that were incorporating character animation, spinning fans, water animation etc. etc. and when these animations were shown to clients these animations added wow factor to the work "the fans even spinning" was a regular type of comment.

 

why have arch viz professionals gone away from this in an ever increasingly competitive market. Obviously the bells and whistles should always come second to what the image or animation is trying to achieve but isn't this a way for firms to differentiate themselves from their competitors?

 

Instead of just undercutting each other on price, shouldn't firms be trying to out do each others work and therefore drive up CG arch viz quality at the same time and once these processes are added to the workflow they can't add that much to the timeframe.

 

aside from lighting technology producing more realistic images, arch viz work is essentially the same as it has been for 8 or so years. It seems to me that the industry standards are stagnating.

 

This to me is an exciting direction for Arch Viz to take and you never know, we may just have some fun in the process.

[JamesTaylor]

it may be due to the increased use of GI and the fact that its possible to precalculate the lighting of a still scene to reduce render times, which is still one of the major considerations whilst producing an animation.

 

however, i do agree about trying to add the wow factor with greater animation of scene elements, but the time scales clients are after do hinder this!!

[STRAT]

the only reason we dont add all these 'extra' touches is purely donw to time constraints with uber tight deadlines.

[IC]

I find that paying clients know what they want and don't expect 'extras' like animated fans or lens flares as they've seen it all before.

 

They know how easy it is to do and appreciate that it adds nothing to the main focus of the animation i.e. the architecture.

 

I think stagnation would be more evident if we were all still adding these trivial things-fads come and go with technology, as they should.

[STRAT]

i find that clients are more interested in their building and architecture, rather than the whistles and bells.

 

yes, the extras make a great difference, but they're usually left to students, part timers, peeps with large time budgets.

 

generally clients just want their building. they're more interested in the job at hand than the artistic touches. most frustrating sometimes.

[Ricardo Eloy]

I find that paying clients know what they want and don't expect 'extras' like animated fans or lens flares as they've seen it all before.

I believe I should not completely agree with that. Of course our client expects to see what he/she's paying for, but the so called wow factor shouldn't be left aside. When we simply meet the clients expectations, we are meeting the Real Value of our product, i.e. delivering what the client knows he'll get for the price he paid. But, when you deliver more than he expected (meaning a better product, more beautiful pic or whatever) for the same price, you increase the Perceived Value of your work. That makes the client feel like your work is the best thing he can get for that price.

I'm not sure I'm being clear, but what I mean is that although we have tight deadlines, although we work with small budgets, we should worry about adding value to our work. In such a competitive market with super renderers capable of simulating light in the most realistic way and things like that, that's maybe the only thing we can really be different, the only part of our job that can afford some artistic personality. I think it's the way to get our work more valuable and our art more visible.

Just my 2 cents here.

[signet]

Bells and whistles, animation/rendering and workrounds are all important. Even for those clients who come to you for the bog standard.

 

It is possible to having moving quality animation if you are willing to work with multiple renders, compositors and up-sell the work you can offer your clients.

 

It is much easier just to give the client the minimum but they will sell more, get more interest and better public appreciation if we wow them. It's getting easier to do.

 

One we up-sold earlier

the brief here was to show how nice this office could be with different levels of furniture vs. density.

We told them we wanted to do this instead, now there a repeat client.

 

 

 

http://www.uniform.net/images/port2_4_movie.wmv

 

With the current project I am working on the main pass will be vray, all the planting will be max scanline and mental ray ambient occlusion so I can animate complex plants moving with relative ease......my major problem is not the rendering though its just using the mesh in the view port that becomes the pain.

 

Tight deadlines will always be here and of course clients always have the last word.

 

I always try and do something a little extra or try something new with every project. Otherwise it becomes very boring becoming the extension of an architect’s pencil.

 

 

 

 

Mike

 

Senior Designer

http://www.uniform.net

[pickle]

Mike, your dead right

 

We try to make each project as interesting as possible even if its crap, otherwise you will be waiting forever for that ideal project where a client comes along and says put everything in.

 

Theres no rule against suggesting something different to a client, 90% of the time you will find they go for it.

 

Rich

[hockley91]

I think they all need those "Bells and whistles" also, but I never have enough time to set those up.....the most I am able to do is moving cars and doors opening and closing and windows sliding, but that's about it.

[RobMc]

I agree very much with Rick and Mike, but always find myself in the same position as hockley91. I guess it comes down to how good a sales man you are.

 

Mike - I'm going to have to insist you stop posting animations, I'm getting more and more depressed with each post!...... great work.... again (damn!)

[_PopArt]

I agree with the idea, i think that the creativity has gone too much in a technical direction when it should be more balanced - alot more creative for visual and graphic arts and different rendering styles instead of an obsession for the 'bells and whistles,' even if its the bells and whistles that wows the clients in the end.

[IC]

One we up-sold earlier

the brief here was to show how nice this office could be with different levels of furniture vs. density.

 

That's a lovely animation and it outdoes the brief in a good (but relevant) way.

 

It's the adding of poor quality running water or character animation as mentioned in the initial post that I don't feel is helpful.

 

When it's done properly, it sells the animation but if it's second rate and rushed out, it looks amateurish and detracts from the focus.

[chapmandu]

I would agree with several of the posts in this thread, in that "it" does seem to be getting easier. "It" being bells and whistles, but also "it" being visualization work in general. I hail from what I believe is a pretty conservative geographic market (Milwaukee, WI area), and developers and architects seem to be more open minded about using the technology every year.

 

I'm also bothered by undercutting - but I think it would be difficult for our "community" to come to a concensus on this issue, mostly because of the huge variation in structure. You have the bigger players like Alpha Vision down to the free lance artists.

[RobMc]

Jon,

 

I've always thought that competition (in pricing) was part of owning and running a business. Ref price fixing - isn't that illegal? I'll do some more research on that matter - I could be wrong.

 

I think that having healthy competition spurs people on to create better/cost effective work which benefits the industry in the end (as standards rise). I think the problem that most people in the USA/UK/Europe have about this issue is the fact that people from countries where there is a lower cost of living are starting to become competitors. But the way I see it, that's just tough luck. It's here to stay (untill their economies overtake ours), we just have to try to add extra services or take our quality of work to the next level.

 

What do think?

[RobMc]

Just found this..

 

http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/layer?topicId=1074014670

 

I guess it just applies to the uk. What laws do you have in the USA?

[Justin Hunt]

What still supprises me the the amount of poor quality camera movement out there. How many animations have you seen where as the camera turns a corner there is 10 seconds of looking at a blank wall.

 

Recently I did a walk through of a street mall. I had leaves swaying in the wind, cars and sound etc. Then the client dropped it onto their web site and totaly stuffed it up by changing the sound and overcompressing the mpeg. All my hard work down the drain.

 

JHV

[Sawyer]

Yeah if anyone is pricing their work just to be nice to other renderers well thats sweet. Being a business owner might not be for you. At the end of the day their is really not much choice as to what you should charge. But you only know this after a few years.

[chapmandu]

Jon,

 

I've always thought that competition (in pricing) was part of owning and running a business. Ref price fixing - isn't that illegal? I'll do some more research on that matter - I could be wrong.

 

I think that having healthy competition spurs people on to create better/cost effective work which benefits the industry in the end (as standards rise). I think the problem that most people in the USA/UK/Europe have about this issue is the fact that people from countries where there is a lower cost of living are starting to become competitors. But the way I see it, that's just tough luck. It's here to stay (untill their economies overtake ours), we just have to try to add extra services or take our quality of work to the next level.

 

What do think?

 

I wasn't trying to imply that competition is bad, I agree with you whole heartedly, it does in part drive creative solutions, new products and services etc. I was actually referring to the original post in this thread (from mahorela) where he referred to the practice of undercutting on price just to get the project (buying the job).

 

Is "project buying" hurting our industry? I believe that is the real question. In the USA, this is not uncommon. The reasons for doing it are probably plentiful, but more than likely, they all stem from the same general reason, that being you need to stay busy so you can keep paying the bills. Sometimes doing work at a loss is better then doing no work at an even bigger loss. Sometimes, it's not better, if you can afford to not be busy for a short time and work on improving your product.

 

I also agree with your thoughts on how this industry is being affected by globalization. It is what it is. If you can't compete on price, then you better be able to compete on quality. If you can't compete on quality, then you better be able to compete on service and client relationships. If you can't compete on service, then.... maybe you should think about a career change.

[chapmandu]

Yeah if anyone is pricing their work just to be nice to other renderers well thats sweet. Being a business owner might not be for you. At the end of the day their is really not much choice as to what you should charge. But you only know this after a few years.

 

I disagree. Everyone has control over what they charge for there services. In fact, collectively, it is our choices as to what we and our competitors have charged in the past that have shaped what the market will bare.

 

IMHO, excellent customer service and client relations can overcome price difference in many situations (not all, but many).

[Sawyer]

I disagree. Everyone has control over what they charge for there services. In fact, collectively, it is our choices as to what we and our competitors have charged in the past that have shaped what the market will bare.

IMHO, excellent customer service and client relations can overcome price difference in many situations (not all, but many).

 

 

Yes we have a choice as to what we charge but so much of that is shaped by how we set up our business. Our overhead determines what we charge. I know I cannot do business if I charge $30 per hour. I know that. Their are not enough hours I could work that would keep me in business because in large part of the mortgage I pay. Now if someone else has a business that offers the EXACT same product and can charge $30 per hour they may be doing a better business than I am. That is a reality. Should I go to them and tell them that they are charging too little and are under cutting me? That seems a bit weird and not realistic. Now maybe they are not charging a realistic fee, if thats the case they will fold or raise their prices. They will have to.

 

Or what if him and I agree that we should be charging $50 per hour. Then a third person comes in and charges $45. Again it is really hard to maintain competative pricing. If we all decided that we would charge the same amount that is called collusion and is illegal but it is almost impossible to pull off.

 

But the good thing is that none of use really offer the same thing. Our prices are different our skills vary and our artistic styles vary. This makes competative pricing really hard.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collusion

[chapmandu]

Yes we have a choice as to what we charge but so much of that is shaped by how we set up our business. Our overhead determines what we charge. I know I cannot do business if I charge $30 per hour. I know that. Their are not enough hours I could work that would keep me in business because in large part of the mortgage I pay.

 

 

You are right - most people / firms cannot afford to charge a discounted rate on a regular basis, but they can do that occassionally to try and help secure a contract. Therein lies the problem. We land the contract, and complete the project and the client is very happy. We're happy we got the contract, but we end up less then enthused when we discover how much we lost on the project. Then, that same client comes back three months later with another project looking for similar pricing - who can blame him, he got a GREAT deal the last time around.

 

Now if someone else has a business that offers the EXACT same product and can charge $30 per hour they may be doing a better business than I am. That is a reality. Should I go to them and tell them that they are charging too little and are under cutting me? That seems a bit weird and not realistic. Now maybe they are not charging a realistic fee, if thats the case they will fold or raise their prices. They will have to.

 

Will they? Define realistic. That is a very broad term, especially when we recognize how globalized our industry is.

 

Or what if him and I agree that we should be charging $50 per hour. Then a third person comes in and charges $45. Again it is really hard to maintain competative pricing.

 

Agreed.

 

If we all decided that we would charge the same amount that is called collusion and is illegal but it is almost impossible to pull off.

 

I don't want to go there.

 

But the good thing is that none of use really offer the same thing. Our prices are different our skills vary and our artistic styles vary. This makes competative pricing really hard.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collusion

[RobMc]

Jon - I don't think 'project buying' is going to trouble the industry as a whole, it's more a trouble to the company who has just lost a stack of money in order to get that one job.

 

I'm guessing that if you 'project buy' you usually tell the customer that he/she has just got a really good discount this time, but for future work the price returns to normal. If you don't make this clear then you are only making problems for yourself/the client in the future.

 

The only way a client could take permanent advantage of this would be to swap cg studios for each job, which would carry a massive risk.

 

I say - don't worry about 'project buying' but do think about/plan for globalisation.

 

Sawyer - thanks for the link to collusion.

 

I agree with you about the variety of skills and services out there. It's just a case of finding the clients that like you/your style and your pricing - then keeping them happy with good service. If they wander off to someone else then it's probably not just price on their minds.

[chapmandu]

I say - don't worry about 'project buying' but do think about/plan for globalisation.

 

RobMc,

 

Thanks for your comments - much appreciated. I don't loose sleep over project buying, but sometimes it bothers me.

 

I think about globalization often. I find it exciting and scary at the same time.