what is your opinion

[skala67]

I just received this in my email....

 

let me know what you all think...

 

-----------------------------------------------------------

>>Sirs of Led Sled,

 

My name is _______ and I work for _____, an Architectural

Visualization Studio located in ______.

 

We believe we have acquired an important quality level that allows us to

compete in the international market dealing with low prices (due to the

price difference between our countries and the local tax exonerations).

This allows us to present to you the possibility of starting a labor

agreement between our companies.

 

Our intention with this email, is to contact the right person in your

organization in order to analize this possibility and evaluate the

quality that we propose by sending you a price quote based on a project

that you have already finished, so you can have an economic and time

reference of our work.

 

As a Guest, we are sending to you the acces to our Client Area, in order

to see mor eof our portfolio:

 

 

 

I will be expecting your answer.

Kind regards.

[STRAT]

their imagery is most average. i personally would bin it straight away.

[puciorek]

TJ

Yes, it is in deed.

My boss said one time, he would rather go out of bussiness rather than outsource jobs. I hope he meant it.

Unfortunately, you can't stop it.

Sincerely,

Darius

[josephus]

I would not worry about it. There will be a job now and then lost to being severely underbid, whether by somone local or international, and unfortunately most of the time the "client" ends up having to accept less than expected, then comes back for the next project IF he really wants the quality and service we're providing. Unfortunately for us, it's the nature of many clients as (perhaps) successfull businessmen, to put cost before quality. As an architect for over 30 yrs I've run into this similar scenario many times over and I'm still in business enjoying what I'm doing.

[skala67]

points taken.

 

cheers,

[Archmage]

hmmm. Be careful not to presume that work from cheaper countries are of lower quality or that the service is poor. I am currently busy with a project in the US although I have never had the need to advertise and arrived there purely through word of mouth.

 

Just beare in mind that there is a reason that these people are able to undercut your prices and it is simple. The reason that they require less money is because they or the country they live in probably has a lower life standerd. I cannot see in a global economy why one group can demand a higher standerd of living at the expense of others as if it is their right especialy when one takes into account that their standerd of living is in part thanks to buisness dealings with other countries.

 

The world will sort itself out.

Eg. If enough ppl buy cheap Chinese goods then the Chinese will get richer, charge more to sustain their new lifestyles, and the world will move on. It is beautiful how capitalism can be so socialistic over the long run.

 

The other option is that the rest of the world boycots all products/services/goods from the US. "if you dont wanna buy from me why should I buy from you."

 

FIY:

 

Total price for this project = +/- 15 000 dollars

 

I bought to do it better from the US:

 

Software and media = 3 000 dollars

Hardware = 10 000 dollars - unfortunately they dont grow Opterons in the surrounding winelands

 

Didn't even mention the software and equipment I already own. Billions of ppl all around the world buying Micky D's and Coca Cola but nobody ever complained about the kebab shop around the corner that went out of buisness coz they couldn't beat a 2 dollar meal. All's fair ......

 

At the end of the day its all about quality and if you stay on the cutting edge you shouldn't have any problems. Also Americans are mostly quite patriotic so you'll always have a few guys around that as a matter of principle do not outsource work. Even now I get the feeling that some of the parties involved in this project are not to happy to be working with me. Alas .....

 

This is almost like the French wine farmers who riot and sabotage thousands of litres of foreign wine because they believe they have a right to continue leading their tranquil upperclass existance eventhough China, Australia, US, South Africa and South America are coming up with equal products for a better price. Why should the french guy be allowed to demand this lifestyle while the farmer in Chilli busts his balls to create something good. Just cause his French? The advise of the French wine authorities to these people was - focus on quality. People are always going to need good French wine and will pay for it.

 

Wish this thing had spellcheck

[Bhanu]

hmmm. Be careful not to presume that work from cheaper countries are of lower quality or that the service is poor. I am currently busy with a project in the US although I have never had the need to advertise and arrived there purely through word of mouth.

Just beare in mind that there is a reason that these people are able to undercut your prices and it is simple. The reason that they require less money is because they or the country they live in probably has a lower life standerd. I cannot see in a global economy why one group can demand a higher standerd of living at the expense of others as if it is their right especialy when one takes into account that their standerd of living is in part thanks to buisness dealings with other countries.

The world will sort itself out.

Eg. If enough ppl buy cheap Chinese goods then the Chinese will get richer, charge more to sustain their new lifestyles, and the world will move on. It is beautiful how capitalism can be so socialistic over the long run.

The other option is that the rest of the world boycots all products/services/goods from the US. "if you dont wanna buy from me why should I buy from you."

FIY:

Total price for this project = +/- 15 000 dollars

I bought to do it better from the US:

Software and media = 3 000 dollars

Hardware = 10 000 dollars - unfortunately they dont grow Opterons in the surrounding winelands

Didn't even mention the software and equipment I already own. Billions of ppl all around the world buying Micky D's and Coca Cola but nobody ever complained about the kebab shop around the corner that went out of buisness coz they couldn't beat a 2 dollar meal. All's fair ......

At the end of the day its all about quality and if you stay on the cutting edge you shouldn't have any problems. Also Americans are mostly quite patriotic so you'll always have a few guys around that as a matter of principle do not outsource work. Even now I get the feeling that some of the parties involved in this project are not to happy to be working with me. Alas .....

This is almost like the French wine farmers who riot and sabotage thousands of litres of foreign wine because they believe they have a right to continue leading their tranquil upperclass existance eventhough China, Australia, US, South Africa and South America are coming up with equal products for a better price. Why should the french guy be allowed to demand this lifestyle while the farmer in Chilli busts his balls to create something good. Just cause his French? The advise of the French wine authorities to these people was - focus on quality. People are always going to need good French wine and will pay for it.

Wish this thing had spellcheck

 

Very well said. When the goods are delivered with legal software , ethical practices are in place ....price issues need not to be debated in this world of globalization.

[RobMc]

Archmage - I agree very much with you. Nice to hear form someone who has thought about the whole situation in an intelligent way.

 

I think it's very wrong to dismiss people/companies in countries other than the USA as being poor quality.

 

Good luck to Pablo, hope he gets lots of work.

[skala67]

good to hear there are two sides to this debate. I hadn't heard much from the latter until now. I can see points from both sides. One question I have based on what I gathered from this email. Is it proper to ask a company for some of their work, so you can tell them how much you could do it for? Im not sure of what is to be gained from that.

[josephus]

hmmm. Be careful not to presume that work from cheaper countries are of lower quality or that the service is poor.

Comments of the quality was based specifically on the images on their website. IMO they look pretty decent and would probably satisfy 80% of clients. Although nothing was said about poor service, I personally do tend to equate low price with lower level of service (from over 30 years experience), but that indeed may not be the case in dealing with a non-US/European based CG service. The local/regional CG provider has many advantages to help overcome their higher costs, one is having a better feel for the ambiance of the imagery acceptable to their specific locale, another is fewer language difficulties, note that i said "fewer", and another that comes to mind is that the "local" CG artist knows the construction, materials and finishes of that locale better. On top of that most businessmen are more likely to work with the person/company whose face they can see, and the more so if they golf with him/her:D ps I don't golf....don't care to make time for it.

 

As far as I'm concerned, if a client can get the work and service he needs from someone for $5000 (where ever that service provider is located), he would not be a good businessman if he paid $15,000, even if in our opionion the work was so much better. In today's corporate culture, investors only care about return on investment, and the corp officers care about their bonusses, hence if the "cheaper" price does the job, then those who charge more will have to show the value to the client of the extra cost, and that is not an easy task, neither is it an easy thing to get into markets far outside of one's region. It's just the way it is.

[Archmage]

good to hear there are two sides to this debate. I hadn't heard much from the latter until now. I can see points from both sides. One question I have based on what I gathered from this email. Is it proper to ask a company for some of their work, so you can tell them how much you could do it for? Im not sure of what is to be gained from that.

 

I don't think it is ethical to ask a company how much they paid for work done by someone else. That is a bit dodgy. I think the client involved should put it out to tender to the relevant parties and then consider the results whilst keeping the quality, service and dependability of the various groups in mind.

 

I get quite a few emails like that localy. It just makes me work harder. Never ones that ask for previous prices though. I think it is in bad taste and hopefully potential clients will see it as such.

 

Maybe the next Arch Vis competition should be a World Cup? That should be interesting.

 

My money is on China ....

[Archmage]

, then those who charge more will have to show the value to the client of the extra cost, and that is not an easy task, neither is it an easy thing to get into markets far outside of one's region. It's just the way it is.

 

I agree. It is never easy to earn above average or have an international client base. That is why so few are able to get there. If one is used to it being easy then maybe there is need for some reflection. Maybe a reality check is order. It happened to my group of people within my country where we seriously had to review our position and accept how easy we had it.

 

I was almost not going to reply to this thread as I have dealt with this topic so many times before. I remember being a bit younger and having a far less restrained debate on this topic on this very forum a few years ago. Philosophicaly speaking though this really bothers me. Not so much on a personal level as I am doing reasonably ok but more on global scale. It is not too inconcievable to me that the next big War could arise from factors such as these. One catches glimpses on the news quite often of the strugles between economical superpowers (EU and US) to hold on to their wealth whilst developing coutries like China, India and a couple of other countries in South East Asia are trying to build up their own economies and also the quality of life of their citizens. I can imagine that if the west persist in trade restrictions from these countries that at some stage one of these countries are going to loose their sense of humor and start asking some hard questions.

 

Localy exclusive democrasy is a contradiction. 1 man, 1 vote, all equals, all's fair .... globally.

[josephus]

It is not too inconcievable to me that the next big War could arise from factors such as these.quote]

 

I'm afraid that is quite likely...not a cheerful prospect.

[skala67]

It is very interesting to see what people thought was important from that email. Most felt that debateable component was the fact of outsourcing. we have beaten that topic to death and I am sure there will never be a common agreement. Dont get me wrong, everyone presented valid and strong points. Personally I think we need both. It makes our industry stronger and believe me, it looks like there is going to be plenty of work for all of us for the near future.

 

Personally the only thing I found issue with was the asking for pricing and information about our past projects. I don't care where you are from, that is not a widely accepted practice.

 

As both sides have said we need to be careful, and unfortunately it has put many people on the defensive. We all need to stop worrying and start workin together. Maybe not on projects together, but by creating a stronger unity within the industry.

 

someone kick on the pink floyd please....

 

thanks,

[skala67]

I also have to apologize for a mistake I made when posting. I should not have included the names and addresses of the sender of the email. I have erased those from the original message. This was not to be an attack against the said party, but rather a point of discussion.

 

Once again my apologies,

[RobMc]

skala67 - Ahhh... I see where you're coming from now... I guess asking for pricing info in this way is pretty strange - sounds like Pablo is trying to gauge the USA market pricing. Probably not the best way to do it.

[josephus]

Personally the only thing I found issue with was the asking for pricing and information about our past projects.quote]

 

I think you misunderstood his email, I read that he's wanting you to give him the specs for a previous project, like a request for a proposal to provide x number of renderings, etc, so that you can compare his good prices to what you paid to have it done...he's not asking for what someone else charged, he's wanting to show you his good prices!

 

BTW: I find the international exchange very interesting and I don't really see "sides" to this issue, we're discussing from each one's particular global POV, and that is interesting.

[skala67]

hmmm, you know you may be right. I'll write and ask for clarification.

[Brian Smith]

For my two cents,

Personally, I send out more jobs, or parts of jobs, than my company does in house. I believe building a network of subs is critical for any company starting out or wanting to grow (in terms of output). I have 5 subs that I send work to; 2 in Ukraine, 1 in Argentina, 1 in Costa Rica, and 1 in China. Though solicited countless times by companies and freelancers in the US, I have not found anyone in the US that does great work for anywhere near the prices offered by the subs I currently work with. Their work is simply impeccable, they are extremely polite and easy to work, they are always on time, and their fees are extremely low. What else could you ask for?

 

Brian

[3DIP]

Hi all.

 

We were reading & checking yesterday this discussion and I understand that as someone said here, there are differents POW related to the outsourcing issue.

 

The fact in 3DIP is that we are growing in projects volume, clients, and they are remaining with us, sharing new projects to move forward.

 

I think that as Brian said, referring to his subs, ("Their work is simply impeccable, they are extremely polite and easy to work, they are always on time, and their fees are extremely low") we are in the same path.

 

At last, I want to share with you our company timming:

 

2005: Improve Inner Renders, in order to achieve the highest level that we can reach.

2006: Improve Exterior Render & Walktroughs.

 

As we said, we are in this way, so we think that in less than 45 days from now our standard will be better than you can see now.

 

Best whishes to all.

 

3DIP

http://www.3dip.net

[skala67]

Pablo,

 

Was Josephus right in his interpretation of the original email? I may have misunderstood the intention at first. Good to see you in the cgarch community and it sounds like the business is realy taking off. Its good to see that you are setting goals and are always pushing for a better product.

 

cheers,