archkre Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 After a quarter of century of architectural practice ,the best advice I can give to my colleagues or colleagues to be is not to devote the 100% of your TIME, MONEY & EFFORTS to this activity. You will regret it! Try not to put all the eggs in the same basket, diversify all you can, if you have an architectural office or work for one, despite how succesful it could be, try to do something else simultaneously,preferable in some other non related field. You are going to tell me: "the deadlines???" Deadlines do not exist in Architectural bussiness, it is an invention for the stupid ones. If you finish what you have to do a couple of days later ,nothing happens, and better yet if you tell your client it is taking more than expected because: complexity, you are buried in other investors' projects, blah,blah...,the client is going to cherish you & your work much more and your value as pro is gonna skyrocket! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kid Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 You are going to tell me: "the deadlines???" Deadlines do not exist in Architectural bussiness, it is an invention for the stupid ones.So when a tender submission is clearly stated that no tender submissions will be accepted after 2:00pm on Friday August the 15th, you believe dropping yours off to them on Monday is going to make your value as a pro skyrocket? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archkre Posted August 13, 2003 Author Share Posted August 13, 2003 I mean :in about 10% of the cases (Competitions, biddings,etc.)not fulfilling the scary Deadlines"booooohhh! could carry some adverse consequences, the rest are"Invented and don't deserve paying any special consideration other than a responsible workflow of a responsible Pro". Never miss a good sport game,a good f***,hangin' around with sons ,friends,etc. for the sake of a non justified Deadline! It does not pay! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Barbarash Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 While in certain cases I can see where a late submission has no direct concequences (spelling?) but in many projects that are under construction, equipment costs are high and every day that they sit on site without being used can be classified as a waste of money. All because the latest curb or retaining wall plan hadn't been sumitted yet and construction depends on that particular detail. Anyway, what exactly did you mean by "have something on the side?" While I would definately enjoy the extra money, I think I vlue my free time a whole lot more, and after work, I'm usually not looking foward to more work. I'm looking foward to dinner and a beer..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archkre Posted August 13, 2003 Author Share Posted August 13, 2003 Of course I mean more$$$$$$$$$ and not more work! There are many ,many ways to achieve that, even from your own office/Architectural Studio. Architectural bussiness is what economists call" horizontal income activity": You stop working,your income automatically stops . In Vertical activities 100%of your efforts,time ,money are not required! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
id_ivan Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 loooool, I don't know what to say about architecture because i ain't live with it for so long, yet. but i think everybody worked their ass the way they wanted not because what people wanted. it's about the way we work that pay alot. i won't pay you alot if your work gain unexpected result, at least some client has typical thought about that. and how about deadlines? deadline just give me a limit to push my ass harder. reach it safely or earlier means more project to do with my time.. at least some research for improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 I assume this is another of your 'provocative' posts designed to illicit discussions? To the point without undue reaction to your call for inaction: I usually try to probe just what is behind a deadline. The client says "we need it Friday the 20th at the latest". I ask "OK, what happens on the 20th?" If I find out what they plan to have result from my turning in the final renderings, I can figure out 'real' the deadline is. I used to find clients would ask a photography house how long to photograph a rendering and make a few prints. The photo place would tell them four days, and THAT was the basis for rushing me. So I would tell the client it only takes ONE day to do that, and a rush charge from the photography place will be $200 but I will add several times that to be rushed by even one day. Or I would find that there is a meeting on Monday, so they want the work Friday. No, I will email images Friday, deliver on Monday early. Like that. But sometimes it really is "we need it at 2PM because we leave at 2:30 PM to fly to 'wherever' to meet with our client. Then I know. Or a competition or big corporate meeting. But not meeting deadlines hurts your professional reputation. I have been hired over other renderers because the client gave up on them due to cronic late work, even really GOOD late work. The point is, negotiate a reasonable deadline but do your best to stick to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgarcia Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 always insightful Ernest. thx. xavier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sawyer Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 Thats good stuff Ernest. Recently we had a dealine (architectural not rendering) if we didn't get it into the city by Friday the fees were to go up by more than $200,000. I think that is a real deadline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archkre Posted August 13, 2003 Author Share Posted August 13, 2003 Mine was not a provocative or "illicit discussion", was just a piece of advice based on mine and my fellow colleagues around observations for more than 25 years of professional practice. What is so provocative or illicit confrontational in the well known economic advice "Don't put all your eggs in the same basket"?. Diversifiying is the best you can do specialy in good times, so you create a protective umbrella for the slowly ones. Good evening Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archkre Posted August 13, 2003 Author Share Posted August 13, 2003 What I am saying about "deadlines" is learning to discern which ones are real, valid and which fictitious. Specificaly in CG presentations/animation field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dollus Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 No, what you said about deadlines is: ''Deadlines do not exist in Architectural bussiness, it is an invention for the stupid ones.'' Hmm, nothing in there about certain deadlines that actually matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazdaz Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 I agree that there is more to life than WORK, but not enough people realize that (espesially in the US). Probably 75% of ALL deadlines are just arbitrary dates set by people that either have no clue (and just pick a date that sounds good) OR people that like to have control (and want something rushed, even if it won't be used for weeks). I once was told that if we didn't finish the millwork for this tiny job on a certain date, there would be "riots in the streets!". Um.. yea, ok, buddy. :ngelaugh: I'm gonna stop this million dollar project that we were working on, so I can concentrate ALL our energy and manpower on this tiny $10K job... sure. And mind you, I am not saying that we were going to ignore or work on that job half-assed (or even miss the deadline) - far from it actually - its just some people are MORE THAN unreasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archkre Posted August 14, 2003 Author Share Posted August 14, 2003 Here you go, Hazdaz! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Deadlines do not exist in Architectural bussiness, it is an invention for the stupid ones.OK, you didn't mean that to be 100% applicable. But let me share with all of you some of an email from a client that was thinking of hiring me for a big project. I should point out that I have never missed a deadline--left them sitting with a client with no renderings, but some have cut it way too close. Also, most or all WIP delays have been because this client re-designs things the night before expecting four renderings to be handed in. However all they remember is there was schedule stress. I have to really warn you (due to your track record, though we like your work enough to recommend you) that we cannot accept any delay (no exception, the deadline is October 10th, 2003 all renderings completed... Please think twice before you commit to the project. We cannot afford to have any delays here…(and I cannot be more explicit and adamant). This is a huge client for us and if you can’t do all of the renderings, I would rather know now instead of creating traumatic experience for the both of us in the future. I got hired for this project yesterday after laying out a production schedule with the guy who wrote that bit I quoted. Writing a schedule makes him aware that I know what is expected and when, but also puts down what I need from them and when, in order to meet the dealine. But some dealines are real, and not just for the more stupid among us. Also, the perception that you may not meet a deadine--even if it's ficticious--WILL likely hurt your chances of being hired no matter how much the client likes your work. So there. Now I get to illustrate restaurants on a cruise ship. The sinking of a career, it's so sad, so sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archkre Posted August 21, 2003 Author Share Posted August 21, 2003 The escence/core/target/aim of my original post was: "After a quarter of century of architectural practice ,the best advice I can give to my colleagues or colleagues to be is not to devote the 100% of your TIME, MONEY & EFFORTS to this activity. You will regret it! Try not to put all the eggs in the same basket, diversify all you can, if you have an architectural office or work for one, despite how succesful it could be, try to do something else simultaneously,preferable in some other non related field." All the replies were about "deadlines", and not a single word about the main idea! A shrink would say you are "asking for deadlines". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 A shrink would say you are "asking for deadlines". Naw, 'cause ther're only for the stupid ones. THAT is the part that caught everyone's eye. And by the way--if I don't have a deadline I will likely NEVER finish it. I have personal projects that I am pasionately interested in that have been going on for 5 - 10 years. It's just how I am, I start 100 projects and complete 0. Unless there is a deadline. Professional projects SHOULD have an end. Oh Gods be merciful, put an end to this. The problem with being diversified is this: what do you do best? Whatever it is, why would you not want to devote your time/energy to that? And what a great selling point: "this ISN'T what I do best, but I will work for you on it until I see better times in the area I prefer". Having said that, I know from personal experience that pride and principles are the first things the hungry eat. Next would be the neighbor's stupid little yappy dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archkre Posted August 21, 2003 Author Share Posted August 21, 2003 The problem with being diversified is this: what do you do best? Whatever it is, why would you not want to devote your time/energy to that? And what a great selling point: "this ISN'T what I do best, but I will work for you on it until I see better times in the area I prefer". Mine is a financial/bussines approach to an Architect's belly. In an ideal world of course it would be OK.doing only one's best, but this is not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Warner Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 And by the way--if I don't have a deadline I will likely NEVER finish it. I know this is not supposed to be a "deadline" topic, but that line caught my eye. I am exactly the same way--I would prefer a client tell me they need a project done overnight than tell me "whenever" because whenever turns into working on it when I'm bored, which turns into 6 months later, the job gets finished -Chad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sawyer Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 I guess I am not too sure how to not put 100% of time/energy into a career. I don't know too many career professionals who have 2 careers. Most architects I know are architects and do not have a side line as an accountant or teacher. I know actually no one who has a dual career. I knew plenty of people who had dual majors but once they moved away from college they were forced to take one path and forsake the other. Now 10+ years out of college their second major serves them little because they have forgotten everything. I have done many "jobs" that I have been successful at but nothing that I could go to to make as much $ as I am now. Is the point you are trying to make that I should keep my waiting skills as sharp as my rendering skills or that instead of working overtime (and making money) tonight I should be working on a masters thesis on Heidegger and Marx? Seems to me work is a lot like marriage and you are either commited or not but its pretty hard be diversified and commited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAllusionisst Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 An older architect once asked me "If the deadline isn't met, is somebody going to die?" I think we have to put things into perspective once in a while. Sure meeting deadlines is a proffessional reality and has to be dealt with. However, I think we are saddled with unrealistic deadlines all the time because a principle wanted to make a client feel like he was the center of the universe and impress him by saying "Sure we can do that, no problem". In actuallity I believe this makes the client value less what we do, since he does not see the staff pulling all nighters and is not paying time and a half (I have only worked for one firm that did pay 1 1/2) so he thinks what we do is so easy we can do it in just a few days. In addition, next time he expects his job to be done just as quickly. We do a great dis-service to ourselves all the time, setting ourselves up to fail. We tend to believe that we must suffer for our art! Of course we need to meet deadlines, but we need to make more realistic promises and make our professional life enjoyable. After all, nobody is going to die due to an unmet deadline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nisus Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 Ernest: tnx for the good summery of ideas on realistic deadlines Archkre: definately provocative. I strongly feel your 'advice' as a real trap for the innocent. nisus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archkre Posted September 23, 2003 Author Share Posted September 23, 2003 A french thinker woud called :"Epater le bourgois" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgarcia Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 what the hell does that mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archkre Posted September 23, 2003 Author Share Posted September 23, 2003 It means something like "appall the burgess" o"espantar al burgues" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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