Microstation

[Kurt]

I am a bit surpriced that there is no microstation forum here!

 

I think there is a lot of hidden MS-users around here...!

[Kurt]

Microstation has just arrived in a new version: MicroStation XM.

 

Here are some test renderings I have made with XM. (Just tests - no architectural viz amongst these):

 

Except from the lensflare in one picture, and a black frame around another, the renderings are directly from MicroStation XM (particle tracing). Well, its not V-ray or Maxwell, but I think its possible to make ok stuff with XM as well...

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

the last time i used microstation on a regular basis was with J, which i think was version 7. i loved it. a very intuitive drafting tool if you ask me. the only thing i didn't like about it was that the interface sometimes lent itself more to DOS when compared to some of the other apps out there. especially in the file open dialog box. ...but i am sure they have changed that by now.

 

i tried version 8 for a little bit, but i felt the interface was slow compared to 7. when they tried to make it fully DWG/AutoCAD compatible. i felt that hurt it as much as it probably apealed to some people. it just wasn't as respinsive in my opinion.

 

anyway, the firm i work for switched to AutoCAD, which i still don't know better than to make lines, and save out files. occasionally i reach for Microstation still when i need to get some 2d work done, and i want it to look nice. ...at least nice when compared to AutoCAD..

 

i never really worked in its 3d enviroment, but it looks like it has come a really long way. i am reallyimpressed by the first 2 images. are they modeled in microstation also? does microstation license a 3rd party render engine?

 

now the firm i am working for is looking to go BIM, most likely Revit. we were going to test out Microstation, but we contacted them, and they told us we could go online to see what Microstation had to offer. Autodesk sent out company reps to give us a full presentation, showing us how Revit would work for the type of projects we do. whatever we choose, we will be buying about 150 seats, so it might have been worth Microstations time to fly as few people in to give us a presentation.

 

anyway, keep up the good work.

[Justin Hunt]

Modeling in MS is great, the single most powerful tool is AccuDraw. Rendering in MS is still arcaic. XM has tried to catch up to whats happening in the industry. Now they are 5 years behind as apposed to the 10 years they were in V8.

 

The combination of MS for modelling and Max for rendering if powerful. The models are clean and effcient (exept for a few issues). No MS dosn't support 3rd party renders, however there has been a call for Maxwell it plugin. Not the best choice of renderers in my opinion. Kurts images are good examples of what can be done with a bit of effert.

 

With regard to BIM, after investigations into using Triforma for documentation of large scale retail and residential projects, it has been slow in the uptake into the office, only a couple of small residential projects. There are alot of hoops to jump through and as yet isn't fully developed yet. In the first hour of using it for the first time we came up with a list of 10 tools that didn't work as designed. Having said that it has some great modeling tools that should be in XM. Drawing extraction is too slow and the layers get skrewed up.

 

As a company with close to 200 seats of MS you would think that we would have some clout in requesting and getting support. Think again. 200 seats small to average where as 800 or more is playing with the big boys.

[Kurt]

Hi Justin and homeless guy

...

i never really worked in its 3d enviroment, but it looks like it has come a really long way. i am reallyimpressed by the first 2 images. are they modeled in microstation also?

...

Yes, everything is modeled in MicroStation. The rendering engine is a lot better than it was at the J-stadium...

Rendering in MS is still arcaic. XM has tried to catch up to whats happening in the industry. Now they are 5 years behind as apposed to the 10 years they were in V8.

The combination of MS for modelling and Max for rendering if powerful. The models are clean and effcient (exept for a few issues). No MS dosn't support 3rd party renders, however there has been a call for Maxwell it plugin. Not the best choice of renderers in my opinion. Kurts images are good examples of what can be done with a bit of effert.

...

I agree that MicroStation is lagging behind. Your description is fairly accurate, I think. Visualization has never had any high priority, and a quick glance at Bentleys production list is a clear evidence that the first priority are the engineers, not architects or designers. http://www.bentley.com/en-US/Products/All+Products/

Or try to look up the visualization gallery at the Bentley pages for a good laugh... if you can find it.

Maxwell seem to suffer from many of the problems that Microstation has: Its not very easy to set up the right lighting and materials, and it requiers long render times. The rendertimes are not always so bad in XM (can be pretty fast, actually) - but you always need a lot of time to set up light and materials to give the desired result.

V-Ray will arrive as a standalone renderer very soon, and I think that might be a better alternative than Maxwell.

How is the workflow using MAX? Do you use dxf-format from MS? Does it work well with big/complicated models? And do you use the MAX rendering engine or a plugin?

[Parker1]

Kurt,

It is great to see you on CG-A. I know you well from the BENTLEY VIS news group. Welcome!

I have been a loyal Microstation user for 10 years. For years I have done everything in my power to push Pete, and his co-horts at Bentley, to advance the Visualization tools more quickly or they would risk loosing good people to other platforms. I attended the "BE" conference a few weeks ago and listened to Pete list off all of the items they currently have in development in terms of VIS. It will be many months before anything is released, and even then it will not be enough. I could not wait any longer so I looked into another route...did the research...and made it happen. Take a look at the work-flow diagram I have attached. The top will show you how we have both been working for years...Bentley all the way to post production. The bottom shows our new workflow which now incorporates 3DS MAX-8 and V-Ray. The results are awesome!

What you do is build your entire model in Microstation as you normally would; be sure to use only Solids and no Surfaces. Next, you save-a-copy of the file as a DWG making sure to set the entity mapping to "ACIS Entity (Body or 3D Solid) in the DWG export options. Finally you dynamically link the DWG into max. Once there, you assign all of your V-Ray materials, UVW Map modifiers, and do your lighting. Now render with V-Ray and you get a beautiful result. We have worked out all the bugs and the process works great. We have now opened the door to all of the MAX and V-Ray resources which are out there waiting for us. No more struggling with particle tracing! I hope you get a chance to give it a try.

 

Hope to hear more from you here on CG.

[Kurt]

Hi Parker1,

thanks for explaining the workflow! This sound very interesting, and I will definitely give your proposed methods a try.

 

How much 3DS MAX skills does this method require? I have played a bit around in MAX, but on a very basic level. And how is the "learning curve" in V-ray?

 

I've been using Microstation since 1995, and have very often experienced that the result never gets better than 85-90% of "the perfect rendering" in MS - no matter how long you contine tweaking and adjusting lights and materials. It looks like V-Ray always "delivers" results in the 90-100% range of perfection...

[Parker1]

Kurt,

 

You are exactly right about the time it takes to get things as good as you can in Microstation and still you only achieve 85%-90%. What would take 50+ hours of tweaking in MS could take 20 minutes in MAX/V-RAY. The lighting is 1000% easier to use and it looks ten times better then the best MS renderings I have ever seen. The added bonus is that you can use the thousands of pre-rendered components that are out there just by plopping them in. Plus the render times in V-RAY blow away particle tracing!

 

As for the learning curve I was very scared. I had not touched anything but MS for my entire 10 years of 3D work. I got the free 30 day demo of MAX and played every day. Then I hit the jackpot...I went to Planet Digital and did MAX/V-Ray training with Brian Smith (a member of CG-A). He just wrote a book for people like you and me called "Foundation 3ds max 8 Architectural Visualization." It is just for architectural visualization so it is a perfect starter book. As for V-Ray, he trained me at Planet digital and I was off and running in no time. Within two weeks I was already doing production work in the revised work-flow. Because you would be modeling in MS you only need to learn the basic tools in MAX, which are not that bad. Then focus on V-RAY, which with the proper guidance is not bad either. Because you have so many years of 3D knowledge, and a strong passion for it, you will pick it up so quick and be creating the best renderings of your life! Do it and don't look back!

 

LINK TO BRIAN'S BOOK - "Foundation 3ds max 8 Architectural Visualization"

 

LINK TO "PLANET DIGITAL"

 

LINK TO CG-A POST ON PLANET DIGITAL

[Sketchrender]

I would like to see a forum too.

I will give microstation a go this time.

Our office is Microstatio based i am not a fan of it at all.

I will model in microstation and render in max, the entire office would be delighted if i did, they all think i do anyway for some reason.

The bentley user conference is on next week, so some a lads are heading over to it.

Should be interesting.

 

Look forward to seeing a forum set up, for modeling alone.

 

thank you

phil

[Kurt]

Thanks for supporting a MicroStation Forum!

 

Parker1:

 

I now follow your advices, and have already downloaded the trial verions of MAX and VRay. And I have done my first tutorials... and my first VRay renderings! (very simple but looking good)

I have tried to export some models from MS, and as you stated - solids work fine. Other elements like surfaces and polygons with holes are unstable or don't show up in MAX. But I found a useful little trick: As an alternative to making only solids, you can create mesh elements. Make sure that max number of edges is set to 3 (I dont think MAX supporst 4-sided elements(?). I think this works for both solids and surfaces - and for nurb/spline surfaces. I have only made a coulple of tests, so there might be some limitations. If you set the Angle Tolerance to 10 or 15 degree you get nice and smooth curved elements. Or you can subdivide and make them smooth in MAX.

 

As for the VRay renderer: Its complicated and very advanced - but so far I have only scratched the surface... The user interface is very logical, so with som guidance and late hours I'll get the hang of it. I have learned to make simple materials and some basic use of HDRI. But I have to find som good lighting tutorials...

[ktm07]

Kurt,

 

When linking your files in max be sure to set your tolerances to set the following tolerances:

 

Curve steps = 100

surface deviation for 3D solids = .013

 

These settings will insure that curved surfaces come in nice and smooth.

 

I typically set my angle tolerance in microstation to 5.

 

As far as VRay, you will find that there are MANY different ways to achieve good results. I really like the Vlado settings for consistently good results.

 

You can find those settings here:

 

http://www.chaosgroup.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14747

 

Tom

[Kurt]

Hi ktm07,

 

thanks for your good advices!

I am trying the Vlado settings right now on a small interior scene made in MicroStation and dynamically linked to MAX/VRay. So far it looks promising.

I have a couple of (noob) problems though:

1) Is there any way I can save the Vlado settings? For some reason the VRay plugin resets itself all the time when I switch between the "pages" in the app, also when I try to use the "save presets" function. Save presets seems to function as "reset to default"?

2) I really can't find out how to place a VRay light. Under Create>Lights> there are no VRay lights in the menu, just standard, photometric and daylight system. Are the VRay lights somewhere else to find? Or maybe VRay lights are not supported in the trial version of VRay?

[Kurt]

OK,

I've done some research, and come to the conclusion that my first problem has to do with the trial version. The problem is described earlier on cgarchitect: http://www.cgarchitect.com/vb/14878-...hlight=presets

 

I also found the VRay lights. In MAX i searched the wrong "create>lights" menu

The dropdown menu at the top has no VRay lights, but the command panel also has a "create

[ktm07]

Kurt,

 

As you get into this, if you post your results, you will find this group to be very helpful in tweaking your settings to get your desired output. The switch from microstation to max and VRay for rendering can be a little daunting because it is SO much deeper. But once you are feeling comfortable, there is no going back to the old ways!

 

Tom

[Kurt]

I've made my first "real" VRay renderings. I made the scene in microstation XM, and I didn't spend much time on the model, just some walls, a window opening some furniture, and thats it. The sofa and the storage unit are 3ds models that I imported.

I have used the "Vlado-settings" for rendering, two vray-lights and a directional light for the sun. I have made all of the materials from scratch, well tried to...

Very simple scene, simple materials and simple lighting - but it took a lot of time, which is natural I guess - doing everything for the first time. I guess I am starting to understand about 20% of the settings in VRay (and even less in MAX), and hopefully my renderings will look better in a couple of weeks.

Comments, suggestions and critique are welcome!

[Parker1]

Kurt,

 

GREAT first effort! Keep it up. The learning curve will catch up to you very soon and you will be cranking out scenes in no time.

 

So what do you think so far? Can you imagine "Particle Tracing" this scene? How hard would it be to get this real GI look? How long would it take to render? When you get comfortable with both MAX and V-RAY you will be rendering scenes so much better and faster than in MS it will blow your mind. In fact, when you visit the Bentley user group you will almost feel silly looking at the results you see over there. It really feels like the big boys of CG meet over here on this forum and very few on the MS group could even begin to hang with this crowd. Keep improving and I look forward to seeing more work.

 

I think the punch line for this post is that we do not really need a Microstation forum over here...because once you plug into this workflow you will actually be hanging out on the MAX and V-RAY forums.

 

Good luck...

[Kurt]

So what do you think so far? Can you imagine "Particle Tracing" this scene? How hard would it be to get this real GI look? How long would it take to render?

 

Thanks for your comments, Brian!

I really like VRay a lot. Even the first "clay" test-renderings that roll out, before I even started tune in lights and materials look a lot better than MS does after hours of tweaking and adjusting. Rendertimes are great in my testcase, mostly about 20-30 minutes - but it is a very simple scene and the renderings have to much grains. I have made some new test that looks better, with improved settings and longer rendertimes, 1 - 1,5 hours pr image (about 4 megapixels)

I guess I could have achieved someting similar in Microstation, with Area lights and LOT of particles, and I think at least 10-15 hours of rendering... but first I would have to remodel the sofa , the curtains would look like glass or plastic, and the floor would not really have a realistic looking reflection...

 

I think the punch line for this post is that we do not really need a Microstation forum over here...because once you plug into this workflow you will actually be hanging out on the MAX and V-RAY forums.

 

I guess you are right. I still have to do some research and testing finding the optimal settings for exporting/linking, but the biggest challenges is of course to learn enough MAX and VRay to fully leave PT behind.

 

anyways... I tried to start a Thread on the Bentley Visualization forum called "Microstation + VRay = the future?" It was deleted within one hour...!

[Parker1]

HA HA HA! I think that is so funny about your thread being deleted. I have been edited by Bentley before. They want only Bentley related topics on thier forum...nothing else. That is why CGA is so great. We can discuss anything and everything over here because it is a third party site and not sanctioned by any one individual software company. When KTM and I started this workflow research project many months ago I knew I could not even talk about it on Bentley's site...in fact, this thread that you started is the first time we have even gone public with our findings.

 

Did you get Chris Nichols DVD's from GNOMEN yet? They are a great starting point to learn a TON about V-Ray. Also the many tutorials that people post links for are a great resource. Hope to hear from you soon on the V-Ray forum as well.

[Kurt]

I haven't ordered any DVD's yet, and the book you recommended is not being shipped outside USA.

But I have found a lot of good tutorials, and VRay is being discussed on a lot of different discussion groups and websites.

 

Today Bentley announced the New User Gallery! Have a look at http://www.bentley.com/gallery

For site design and images they have chosen a 1997-style, - but it's all brand new...!

[woolsgrove]

Hi,

I don't really check this forum but Kurt just linked me to this thread, what a nice rich seam of visualises using MS there is here.

I've been running with Vray for some time now and totally impressed, Brian's workflow is how I've been working, modelling in MS as I'm so familiar with it and getting DGN data from the team.

I still rate MS for work on models that need feeding back to others on the team. As a visualiser my models tend to end with me, I don't pass them on so exporting out to this end is not a problem.

Tom, What are you file units for using 'surface deviation for 3D solids = .013' I tend to alter this depending on the curve stroking I need for the model, and the detail/distance from the camera. I usually have 6-12 linked models so I can control the stroking. + I do pre-mesh in MS when I need to.

I'm running Max 7 and thinking about loading up 8, I heard there were some problems with DWG Link, have you experienced any? Without this my workflow would be crippled.

Brian, Brian Smith's book looks great, pity they wont ship to UK.

Thanks,

Richard

[Kurt]

welcome Richard!

 

 

I have a question: Is there a way to export "saved views" from Microstation to cameras in MAX? I know I can create animation cameras from saved views in MS, and they work in MAX/VRay when the file is DWG-linked, but is there an easyer way to do this?

[woolsgrove]

Hi Kurt

DWG supports views, so make sure this is enabled on export from MS and import to Max.

This essentially brings though only the camera and target position.

Make a note of cameral angel (horizontal) and the aspect ratio and it should work fine.

Max only supports 3 point perspective so you can't bring through 1 and 2 point perspective from MS.

Max does have camera correction modifier (right click on the camera) but this is not a good as MS's 2 point.

You need to keep hitting guess when you move the camera.

TBH I've never tried exporting animations, Max can keyframe between cameras but I'm not sure if it would produce an identical animation to MS.

[Parker1]

Richard,

 

Great to have you chime in to this thread. I hope you can continue to contribute your lessons learned as we do.

 

I do like the camera modifier but you are right it is no where as good as the true two point tool in MS.

 

Tom and I are in the same office so we are both using the same methods and workflow. Since we are both on MAX-8 we can not speak about the MAX-7 DWG link because we have not worked in that version. We love the version 8 DWG link tool and we would also be in trouble without it.

 

As far as animations are concerned, this is where you must draw the line between MS and MAX. Why try to fight the battle of bringing in cameras and paths into MAX...just do all of your camera work and animation work in MAX. It is a far superior animation tool then MS and should be used to it's full potential. I now do EVERY step in creating work in MAX/V-Ray and truly only use MS for modeling, nothing else.

 

Good luck

[walianboy]

Richard Woolsgrove - thanks for replying to one of my previous posts. I've just spent the last 30 minutes here reading through this very interesting thread. To be honest, this is what I've been searching for.

 

Kurt made me laugh by despairing at Bentley deleting some of his posts. The same has happened to me recently when I tried to start a similar thread and I'm a bit fed up of being 'big-brothered' by the Bentley boys. It's a shame though.

The workflow looks very interesting and though I've not played much with MAX 8 I, along with you guys, think that it is the way forward for rendering.

 

I love Microstation as a product and it feels like an old friend almost as I have been using it since version 95 but I am NOT happy with the tweaking times needed to get a half decent image compared with what I am finding on the internet with regards to other renderers out there.... namely V-Ray.

I will be following this thread closely.

 

Kind regards

 

Richard Beatson

[woolsgrove]

Brian,

Thanks, always happy to add comment. I'll be keeping an eye on this forum for sure, it's just hard as there are so many to check.

I think I'll be going with Max8 then, I was worried about the DWG Link but if you guys are running ok I'll go for it.

I didn't mean to suggest to animate in MS and bring though as a method, I wasn't sure if Kurt was talking about bringing through an existing animation from MS. I've never tried it anyway.

I do my animation setup in Max, tools are great, but have you checked XM? they have tidied it up a lot. But there is little point of doing in MS if rendering in Max.

I'm not sure is max8 is different but I find the only way to control the material size/scale at material level (as MS) is to attach a UVW mod of 1mx1mx1m. Then it works. How do you deal with this?

Richard Beason,

I didn't know the NGs were monitored so heavily and posts deleted without note to the author.

I'm also a big fan of MS, (I;ve been running with it since v4!) It's great to have it all in one and for quick design visualisations it's good, but for real control Vray is very good, and worth the pain of translating.

One thing I find in being a relative novice to Max is that I'm sure I'm unaware of many tricks, anyone got any tips they would recommend, even basic ones. I've only just discover the Renderable Spline modifier, fantastic.

Richard