Bad experience with cheap architect

[3Drenderer]

The market of Toronto is so bad, I even heard there is $50 service for a hotel interior rendering(not an hourly rate, it's $50 for a rendering). Can't understand why some people are so desparate to get jobs, if they only charge $50 for a rendering, how could they make a living?

I think that's one reason why some architects are so good at bargaining. I've recently done a set of 3 renderings for a high -rise condo (46 storeys) My quote was really really low because I know the market is not good. I'm not a good salesperson and the architect succesfully slashed my quote 50% off by promising he would provide me with the model.

Here are the works I have done after the nightmare:

The architect said he provide me with all the mesh but it turned out I have to model 2 high-rise condo by the side myself. Rendered 8 times for 3 renderings, each render took more than 6 hours. Because the architect's changes. Photoshop work for 3 renderings done twice because he move the mullions positions...

I think normally a rendering job like this should be around $3000 for each rendering, it turned out I got half a rendering's price for all the work I mentioned above. I can only blame myself, not a good negotiator, not a good salesperson. Maybe it's time to think seriously about reloacating to US. I believe the market there is not so bad like it here in Toronto.

[zam]

If I may borrow a line from Pulp Fiction:

 

"They should be *beep*in' killed. No trial, no jury, just straight to execution."

 

I feel your pain. ...I'm also having trouble with an architect who I'm suing for non-payment of a £5k bill

[ktm07]

Rick,

 

Sorry to hear about the bad experience! For what it's worth, most of us aren't that way...

 

The market here in the U.S. is the best that I've seen in the twelve years I have been at it. Here in the southeast, we can't hire people fast enough. Granted we are an architecture firm and not a rendering firm. But based on the amount of work that we send out I would say that the rendering firms are busy too!

 

Tom

[ihabkal]

We're having worse conditions here in Lebanon too because some silly renderers ask for less than $10/hour to do a rendering. But I believe as they grow older and have a family, if they don't price their work according to what it's really worth, they will get burned and hurt themselves most. I decided a few weeks ago not to do any work for any Lebanese or Dubai or Sauudi architect unless the pay is really high. I only accept to do renderings for US and European clients from now on.

And Tom, if you need a freelancer let me know and I'll send you my info, I won Cadalyst 2002 1st place arch. exterior.

[landrvr1]

Rule Number One:

All Architects are Cheap

 

At some point (sooner rather than later) you just have to bite the bullet and tell those kinds of clients to go stuff themselves. Honestly.

 

Remember, architects and designers are some of the worst business people on the planet. More than any other creative service/consulting industry, they have fiercely cut their rates over the last 20 years in order to stay competitive and win projects, and this is starting to really kill the industry. You are starting to see very well established, mainstay firms who are barely making a profit anymore, and most simply break even. For interiors work, it's far worse. In the States it was common to see design fees in the $2 to $4 a square foot range only 5 years ago. Now those same firms will charge $1.50 or less per square foot for similar projects. To my knowledge it is the only creative service industry that has seen their basic rates actually LOWER over time. That is simply unheard in the business world. Salaries go up, the overall cost of business goes up, EVERYTHING goes up. Except the rates. I've many friends in the graphics and advertising fields. Their rates always go up - just not as fast over time as they once did, but they still go up In fact, there isn't one architecture or design firm that I've heard of - not one - that has had a rate increase in the last 5 years.

 

What does this mean for us? Simple. As architects and designers continue to slash their rates *ahem*cut their own throats*ahem*, they are going to pass that good fortune and wise business sense onto the likes of us.

 

Watch out.

 

There are many reasons for rate slashing in this industry. Not the least of which is global competition, and lower rates coming out of China and India (although that, dear friends, is changing and changing fast. Rates from each of those countries have started to increase at a fascinating rate. Get a taste of that cash, and pretty soon you've got a lifestyle to support!).

 

There does seem to be a trend beginning now where some of the lowest prices I've heard of for rendering jobs is not coming from overseas, but from 20 year olds - usually with a bootleg version of Max, and a lot of time on their hands. Yikes. I still rely on the fact that I provide outstanding customer service (invaluable) and creative solutions.

 

Good clients will recognize excellent service and talent.

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

i would like to see the person who actually said they could do a rendering for $50 provide a quote for an actual project. recently, someone i know received one of thiose emails that said renderings starting at $200 or something like that. he asked for a price quote for a specific project. they came back with a $1000 quote and 60 hours of work to do it on a project that could have been done in 10 hours.

 

don't beleive the hype.

 

if the architect was says he has someone willing to do it for $50, then tell him to let that person do it for $50. you get what you pay for.

[David Knourek]

don't beleive the hype.

 

if the architect was says he has someone willing to do it for $50, then tell him to let that person do it for $50. you get what you pay for.

 

 

Well said

[Sawyer]

if the architect was says he has someone willing to do it for $50, then tell him to let that person do it for $50. you get what you pay for.

 

Preach It!

This market is oversaturated with mailings. Every other drafter thinks they can send out 50 mailings saying how cheap they can work and that they could leave their day job to do renderings. Nobody ever hires them but the architect gets that figure in their head and thats what they think it could cost.

Personally I don't think most people care if the illustration costs $50 or $5000 but no one wants to pay more than it's worth and if someone thinks they are over paying they get pissed. That and its easy to talk down the price of a 20-30 something self-proprietor.

[moshenko]

Are we living in the same Toronto?

 

It sounds like part of the problem may be the way you are approaching the work rather than the "bad" market or "cheap" architects. If someone offers to provide a model for you to work with you should take steps to ensure that the model actually benefits your work; if it doesn't, you should be prepared to demand more fees. If someone promises to provide an entire model and they only provide 1/3 of it, the simple answer seems to be: you guessed it, charge more fees A client who asks you to do something for free and gets what they ask for is not cheap, they're just good business people trying to save money for their own benefit. Relocating to the US won't solve your problems if you continue to allow clients to get more for less.

[landrvr1]

Are we living in the same Toronto?

 

If someone offers to provide a model for you to work with you should take steps to ensure that the model actually benefits your work; if it doesn't, you should be prepared to demand more fees. If someone promises to provide an entire model and they only provide 1/3 of it, the simple answer seems to be: you guessed it, charge more fees

 

Excellent point about checking out a supplied model prior to sealing the deal. I stopped accepting models from clients about a year ago. 99.9% of them were complete rubbish anyway. It ends up being a bargaining chip that nearly always benefits the client and does little or nothing for the visualizer. Two or three viz guys I know around Chicago charge an hourly rate for repairing/fixing/modifying a supplied model. That's good business sense I suppose, but I want nothing to do with someone else's AutoCAD mess.

 

A client who asks you to do something for free and gets what they ask for is not cheap, they're just good business people trying to save money for their own benefit.

 

Ooof. Gotta disagree with you there. They may think they are clever business people (and if someone accepts, perhaps they are), but even thinking about asking someone to do something for nothing is the very definition of 'cheap' in my book. Not only is it cheap, it's a horrible business practice for that architect to be following and it's all but guaranteed to come back and bite them in the a$$ later.

[landrvr1]

i would like to see the person who actually said they could do a rendering for $50 provide a quote for an actual project. recently, someone i know received one of thiose emails that said renderings starting at $200 or something like that. he asked for a price quote for a specific project. they came back with a $1000 quote and 60 hours of work to do it on a project that could have been done in 10 hours.

 

Ahh. The old 'Bait & Switch'!

 

I find these posts about 'cheap rendering emails' to be fascinating. Are these being sent to viz guys or architects? No one I know in the viz or architecture business has received them. Yet, anyway!

[manta]

I think cheap is the wrong word, more like devious, manipulative and evil...

[3Drenderer]

Thank you guys for all your replies and suggestions. Several months ago I was asked for a quote of a hotel interior rendering and my quote was several hundred dollars, the architect replied my email as that's TOO MUCH expensive and she had found someone who would just charge $50 for the job(not outsourcing overseas). About good business people comments, I can't agree with that either. I know some companies provide free rendering services for clients when marketing themselves. That's totally different from cheating to get free additional services. And I will never work for those kind of clients again. Trust is the foundation of business. In my defense maybe I could threaten the client if there is no additonal fee I would not give him the high-res images, but when I thought I'm dealing with a not so good person, how could I possibly know what consequences he would bring. I don't care if I can't get paid for the job. But definitely not expecting troubles. I have to admit I don't have too much business sense. Lots to learn.

[tanni]

I have no experience with Canada/ USA/ Europe but in my native country I have to face all this problem with same scenario Architect doesn’t think about us after finished his/her project even they don’t give us any call and rest of the bill till his new project. They always cut our bill and deny to pay the modification or extra work.

[Sawyer]

Excellent point about checking out a supplied model prior to sealing the deal. I stopped accepting models from clients about a year ago. 99.9% of them were complete rubbish anyway.

 

This to me is a big issue. Its a hard sell to tell someone their work isn't workable. This whole BIM thing can really come back to bite us. I had thought that it would be because we won't be making as much but its really more work than its worth. I pretty much prefer not to use ADT files or Revit files. I have not been able to make the translations pay off. But then you have to explain to a client that an autodesk product doesn't like another autodesk product. It's very sticky.

[Michael Emo]

This is very interesting conversation!!! I live in California and I own a small Visual Communications company but I'm getting more into the rendering game given my background in art and architecture.

 

For graphic design, I can't tell you how many times I've had to lower my prices to get a job because businesses in general have this preconceived notion that 'graphic design' is like clip-art and they can't see paying more than $500 for a logo. It's beyond frustrating.

 

I agree that a major part of the problem are the beggars out there willing to do a ton of work for super cheap. If that beggar is the first designer that firm has ever worked with and their prices are rock bottom for the industry, then that is what the company expects to pay for work in the future from any other company.

 

However, over time, I've managed to build our client base and reputation and we have steadily increased our rates to a much more profitable position within the industry.

 

As mentioned above, much of it comes down to sales. I learned in Architecture school at Cal Poly that some of the best architects in the world have gone broke because they are bad business people. As artists, we have the same problem. We don't know the business side of things.

 

But from my experience, the best thing you can do for yourself is learn how to be a good business person. Take classes, read books and above all, network like crazy. It took me years to figure this out but now that I have, things are much smoother, especially when it comes to negotiating. This is sort of funny but my friend and I were talking one time after a meeting and we figured out that there is a really fine line to walk when your trying to make a sale. To a certain extent, you have to walk into that meeting knowing that you are the $hit at what you do, with your chest out and you have to look confident. You have to know your the best and talk like it. So, to some degree you have to act cocky and arrogant. It's tough to do if that's not how you are naturally, but I can't tell you how many times it's wokred and we've landed a big job because of it.

 

Thanks,

Michael

 

I realize that California is in a class of it's own when it comes to economic opps (New York being the other exception), but on the flip side, it's extremely competitve. I swear I must have at least 12 neighbors who are 'designers' too........because they bought 'photoshop elements'

[Sindala]

One thing i've learned over the past 2 years is that you have to be very sharp and indeed cocky.

My girlfriend ran a catering compagny for 5 years and she has a very sharp insight into what happens. She made tapas, and was very good at it and had some very chic clients here in A'dam. She stopped making tapas, and now is our photoshopper and consiglieri

Every now and then she would get a client who wanted a cheaper menu, or a discount. She never did this because if you do and you then serve the food the client will think he's getting cheaper choriso and the food was prepared with less love so he will know it doesn't taste as good as it should.

(in reality they probably don't know the diffirence between chicken and beef but that's another story)

So giving a discount means they are automatically not satisfied even if you do a great job. It's childish and simple but in my experience that's exactly how it works.

[ihabkal]

Let's put this thread on the top/sticky, save it on our desktop, hang a copy over our desk and read it every day twice.

I appreciate the time everyone took to post his comments on the subject. This is the biggest problem in our industry, harder than doing renderings for me. Because in reality, I am a sweet helpful person, and today's clients need an arrogant b@$t@rd who talks to them like they're ignorant $hithead$ not a talented, sweet young artist.

Sadly, in today's societies, sweet and helpfull is treated like a stupid nerd, and arrogant is elevated on a pedestal...

[Michael Emo]

Sadly, in today's societies, sweet and helpfull is treated like a stupid nerd, and arrogant is elevated on a pedestal...

 

Yep, that's exactly it, and it took me a few years to figure this out after many meetings where I was getting rammed by the client for lower prices and stupid me agreeing to them. Now, when I go to a meeting I prepare myself and go into a completely different mode than who I really am. Psychologically, it's almost like a Jekyll and Hyde syndrome and it's very weird. I never really get used to it, but I keep doing it because it clearly works.

 

I often wonder what the client must think of me when I show up at a dinner party or some outside function to interact with people and I act completely different than I did in the boardroom.

 

Michael

[thinice]

This to me is a big issue. Its a hard sell to tell someone their work isn't workable. This whole BIM thing can really come back to bite us. I had thought that it would be because we won't be making as much but its really more work than its worth. I pretty much prefer not to use ADT files or Revit files. I have not been able to make the translations pay off. But then you have to explain to a client that an autodesk product doesn't like another autodesk product. It's very sticky.

 

I think this subject deserve a full thread of its own.

 

Me, I just tell clients my super duper software cannot take their model and I would only use it for reference - which what really happens most of the time anyway.

[bavanor]

This to me is a big issue. Its a hard sell to tell someone their work isn't workable. This whole BIM thing can really come back to bite us. I had thought that it would be because we won't be making as much but its really more work than its worth. I pretty much prefer not to use ADT files or Revit files. I have not been able to make the translations pay off. But then you have to explain to a client that an autodesk product doesn't like another autodesk product. It's very sticky.

Sawyer,

 

If the client is asking that question about autodesk products not liking another, they obviously are not using the programs! Because anyone that uses any autodesk product, knows there are problems, we just live with them.

 

Architects are cheap but if you get in a good relationship with a firm they are usually loyal and will then start paying the bills moderately on time.

 

My best advice is to stay strong and firm on your pricing. Otherwise they will just start running all over you, asking for more while thinking they don't have to pay for it. You have to be an A-hole in the business part (you are actually not being one, but I always feel like I am being one, and am sure other people do to). So don't be afraid of walking away from jobs, it's hard but well worth it in the long run.

 

Aaron

Aaron

[rotten42]

Rule Number One:

All Architects are Cheap

 

At some point (sooner rather than later) you just have to bite the bullet and tell those kinds of clients to go stuff themselves. Honestly.

 

Remember, architects and designers are some of the worst business people on the planet. More than any other creative service/consulting industry, they have fiercely cut their rates over the last 20 years in order to stay competitive and win projects, and this is starting to really kill the industry. You are starting to see very well established, mainstay firms who are barely making a profit anymore, and most simply break even. For interiors work, it's far worse. In the States it was common to see design fees in the $2 to $4 a square foot range only 5 years ago. Now those same firms will charge $1.50 or less per square foot for similar projects. To my knowledge it is the only creative service industry that has seen their basic rates actually LOWER over time. That is simply unheard in the business world. Salaries go up, the overall cost of business goes up, EVERYTHING goes up. Except the rates. I've many friends in the graphics and advertising fields. Their rates always go up - just not as fast over time as they once did, but they still go up In fact, there isn't one architecture or design firm that I've heard of - not one - that has had a rate increase in the last 5 years.

 

What does this mean for us? Simple. As architects and designers continue to slash their rates *ahem*cut their own throats*ahem*, they are going to pass that good fortune and wise business sense onto the likes of us.

 

Watch out.

 

There are many reasons for rate slashing in this industry. Not the least of which is global competition, and lower rates coming out of China and India (although that, dear friends, is changing and changing fast. Rates from each of those countries have started to increase at a fascinating rate. Get a taste of that cash, and pretty soon you've got a lifestyle to support!).

 

There does seem to be a trend beginning now where some of the lowest prices I've heard of for rendering jobs is not coming from overseas, but from 20 year olds - usually with a bootleg version of Max, and a lot of time on their hands. Yikes. I still rely on the fact that I provide outstanding customer service (invaluable) and creative solutions.

 

Good clients will recognize excellent service and talent.

 

 

..and this is the reason why people should establish their client base on the basis of relationships. I've said it before, networking is so much more valuable than advertising in this industry.

[joseph alexander]

It’s also important that you understand where the money for your work is coming from: if it is coming directly from the client or if it is molded into the architect’s fee.

 

If it’s being passed on directly to the client you’ll find that the architect won’t be as onerous about fees, but they’ll become very price conscious when it comes out of their fees. We’ve had many competitions where we’ve taken a hit because of rendering and now we try to pass fees directly to the client, as a separate entity.

 

Try to act as a consultant and not a freelancer. This billing structure, if you can attain it, may give you more flexibility in regards to your fees.

 

 

Hope this helps.

 

-Joe

[4DM]

Sadly, in today's societies, sweet and helpfull is treated like a stupid nerd, and arrogant is elevated on a pedestal...

 

Too right, Ihab - I couldn't agree with you more. And how sad that is.

 

Years ago when I first started out, I used to think it was good to "make friends" with clients so that they'd like you, and come back for more. Big mistake. Now I know it's only business. I'm OK at negotiating the initial price these days, but I still find it vulgar to ask for that extra money when amendments get made - I always feel like a cockney plumber, sucking his teeth and saying 'Phew, that'll cost yer...", but I know that if I don't, I'm basically being ripped off.

 

I also used to pride myself on earning an honest living by doing visuals: not exploiting anyone, generating my income through the sweat of my brow. Good socialist stuff. But now I know I was just an idealistic fool! My clients, many of them now younger than I am, are making fortunes, some of them literally millions of pounds, from property speculation..and what's more, I am helping them, for the price of a thousand or two.

 

However, contrary to prevailing values, I have to remind myself that money isn't everything. I still take great pride and satisfaction in what I do. And I still love this job. Being a tough business person doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with this vocation, but clearly we have to learn these skills if we are to survive and succeed.

 

Cheers,

 

D.

[dimenx]

Very interesting topic, all of you are talking about how low the fees are in comparison with the real value of our works, but no one has mention how to determine the price we should charge, maybe it's a weird question, but I'm kind of new in this industry and I definitely don’t want to rip off myself and damage the industry.

 

Any help is appreciated