Borrowing plans for practice

[harryhood]

I'm a student in 3D, not specifically architecture. However, I would like to develop my skills in architectural modeling/rendering. I have seen several websites that show basic plans for homes along with images. My question is if I use these plans that aren't mine to develop my portfolio need I give credit to the source of the plan itself? Even if they are generic plans?

[AJLynn]

You should give credit, if you are copying a design directly.

[mskin]

i disagree. im not a lawer, but, its not the design you are taking, it is your interpretation of thier design and your interpretation is your property. So, change it a little bit if you feel you must, but to me its like saying that you aren't allowed to draw a picture of a building wothout giving credit to the architect.

[AJLynn]

I'm not talking law here, I'm talking good practice - if you don't give credit to the designer, some people will interpret it as meaning you were the designer. If you do give credit, that means you did the image. If it were just floor plans, that would be one thing (and what would be the point anyway) but working from plans and images is using somebody's design and credit is a matter of professional courtesy.

 

The same would be true for a drawing of a building, if you knew who the architect was and were using it in a portfolio.

[Koper]

my motto is that i am here to make friends and not enemies, rather be safe than sorry, if one has to ask whether one has to refer somebody else’s design so that one may use it, then the answer is yes, even when it was created generically. There is nothing wrong with appropriation as long as one refers.

[Sawyer]

but to me its like saying that you aren't allowed to draw a picture of a building wothout giving credit to the architect.

 

 

Aren't there actually cases where the architect didn't want photos taken? Wasn't that a Ghery building?

[mskin]

Aren't there actually cases where the architect didn't want photos taken? Wasn't that a Ghery building?

 

I guess i wouldn't be surprised, but seriously - you can't prohibit someone from photographing your work and publishing it.... thats ludicrous. However, it would be illegal for me to photograph someones work and claim it as my own (and immoral). What if I want to do a rendering of a famous building? is that legal without getting permission or giving credit? of course it is, im saying "this is my rendering" not "this is my design"... and it is my rendering. infact, i think it would be more illegal for frank ghery to take a rendering i did of his building, and use it to market his practice. Can frank ghery take images of his architecture out of a publication and use it for marketing? doubt it, not without permission.....

[vadhor]

I'm don't know laws of USA, but in "Berne Convention

for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works" (include arch.works) we can read:

 

http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ip/berne/trtdocs_wo001.html#P144_26032

===

Article 10

Certain Free Uses of Works:

1. Quotations; 2. Illustrations for teaching; 3. Indication of source and author

 

 

(1) It shall be permissible to make quotations from a work which has already been lawfully made available to the public, provided that their making is compatible with fair practice, and their extent does not exceed that justified by the purpose, including quotations from newspaper articles and periodicals in the form of press summaries.

 

(2) It shall be a matter for legislation in the countries of the Union, and for special agreements existing or to be concluded between them, to permit the utilization, to the extent justified by the purpose, of literary or artistic works by way of illustration in publications, broadcasts or sound or visual recordings for teaching, provided such utilization is compatible with fair practice.

 

(3) Where use is made of works in accordance with the preceding paragraphs of this Article, mention shall be made of the source, and of the name of the author if it appears thereon.

===

 

So, you needs specify author of plans if you knows his name

 

btw, USA is one of coordinators it's Convention...

[mskin]

"So, you needs specify author of plans if you knows his name"

 

I understand your point, but I disagree that it applies here.

1. discusses providing credit to a source if re-using in another publication. This is dealing primarily with a written piece. If i were to copy your text from this forum and paste it in another thread without quoting and providing you credit (although i don't think this law would apply to a web forum) - it would be plagerism, however, i could make the same argument using my words and not using any combonation of words from your text and never mention you and it would be completely legitamate.

[mskin]

"So, you needs specify author of plans if you knows his name"

 

I understand your point, but I disagree that it applies here.

1. discusses providing credit to a source if re-using in another publication. This is dealing primarily with a written piece. If i were to copy your text from this forum and paste it in another thread without quoting and providing you credit (although i don't think this law would apply to a web forum) - it would be plagerism, however, i could make the same argument using my words and not using any combonation of words from your text and never mention you and it would be completely legitamate.

 

2. talks about using photographs, artwork, etc... from one publication in another. Obviously you cant copy a photograph from a magazine article and use it in a newspaper article without explicit consent from the author, but say that photograph was of a building.... i could run out, take the same photo for myself, and use that in my publication without obtaining concent.

 

this article talks about "reusing" already created artwork wether in written or some other expressive form. it does not deal with my interpretation of someones artwork. I can write an editorial about an article without giving credit to the author provided i dont reuse any of his text. I can express any of my ideas without having to credit someone else provided i dont copy thier work or ideas. if i need to reference thier artwork, than i must do so while providing credit. Creating a 3d model of someone elses plan is far different than copying thier plan and selling it as my own - that would be plageristic. I don't need to obtain Frank Ghery's consent to critique one of his buildings, even if my editorial includes photos of his building that I took. Nor if my article contained a sketch of his building that I created.... a 3d model is no different than a photograph or sketch.

 

the big no-no is creating the 3d model and projecting to a client that the design is yours.... you can safely say that "this is the kind of visualizationthat i can offer" but not "this is the kind of design i can offer"

 

i think we are talking apples and oranges - there is a difference between copying designs and interpreting designs. If a designer makes his design public through any means (including web) than it is safe to say that it is open to interpretation - sketching, 3d mdeling etc...

[Koper]

THUS, the big question, what type of porfolio does mr. Harryhood want to develop, if it is showing his design skills then the awnser is yes, he has to refer, but if it is just showing modeling, texturing and rendering skills then maybe it's not neccesary because he is showing of his own skills of what he is capable of doing.

 

If i were you, I would refer. Then nothing can go wrong;)

[AJLynn]

I think there are two different issues here:

 

-Do you legally have to give credit? Depends on a lot of things. Usually, probably not, but don't quote me on that.

 

-Is it a good idea to give credit? Depends on a lot of things. Usually, yes. In the case of a student who is not in architecture but wants to have architectural rendering in a portfolio (for applying for jobs, grad school, whatever) the answer is yes, if for no other reason than to show that you are the kind of person who gives other people credit for their work.

[harryhood]

Thank you all for the feedback and different points of view. I am focusing on the modeling/texturing/rendering aspect, not design. With that said, It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to make that clear in my portfolio, to point out that it isn't my design.

[mskin]

THUS, the big question, what type of porfolio does mr. Harryhood want to develop, if it is showing his design skills then the awnser is yes, he has to refer, but if it is just showing modeling, texturing and rendering skills then maybe it's not neccesary because he is showing of his own skills of what he is capable of doing.

If i were you, I would refer. Then nothing can go wrong;)

 

 

If he plans on showcasing his design skills, than he has no business mentioning anyone elses work.

 

If he wants to showcase his 3d modeling, why shouldn't he be able to look at a photograph and recreate the space visually without giving the whole world credit.

[AJLynn]

It's not the whole world. It's the person who designed the subject matter. Architects usually enjoy having their stuff used (non-commercially) but usually appreciate credit being given. Trust me, I'm one of them. I don't see what the problem with this is - giving credit is a matter of professional courtesy and there's no reason not to do it.

[imgumbydammit]

and there's no reason not to do it.

 

probably the most salient point in the whole thread.

 

IGD

[mskin]

i hope im not being misinderstood as advocating plagerism or copying someones work... far from it. I just think a distinction should be made about what is actually copyrighted material and what isn't. Good idea to give credit? - i don't know... this is the line that gets me - "I have seen several websites that show basic plans for homes along with images." and that is something very wrong with architecture today and more than likely, i don't believe in giving that credit.

[Koper]

'If he plans on showcasing his design skills, than he has no business mentioning anyone elses work' - mskin

 

Only if you appropriate directly from the original source

 

 

mskin, so you say that I can re-do a building you have originally made, even if it is only a simple 4 wall, and never give you credit because you don't believe in giving or getting credit??

[mskin]

mskin, so you say that I can re-do a building you have originally made, even if it is only a simple 4 wall, and never give you credit because you don't believe in giving or getting credit??

 

This is exactly the point i am NOT trying to make. I am not talking about "re-doing" buildings, i am talking about rendering, or photographing one.

 

would I be upset if someone"re-did" one of my buildings? Verbatim? Yes.

 

would I be upset if someone was influenced (but did not copy) my work and used it as inspiration for thier own? I would be flattered. Should I legally expect credit for my influence? no. would credit be nice? - yes

 

There is a huge difference between copying a design verbatim and using it as your own compared to looking at a building and rendering it. And since my portfolio is showcasing my "rendering" skills and not my "design" skills... I'm saying that this is not a plageristic act - and that credit is not necissarily required.

 

for the record, I never said wether i believe in giving credit or not, but i will say this:

 

If i were to use a well thought out, honest design as a foundation for a rendering, I would most certainly credit the author of the design. But, if I were to use as the basis for my rendering some "un-imaginative vinyl clad colonial mcmansion that looks like ten other floor plans with minor elevation changes that i can find in tons of magazines and countless websites" - i dont see the need for crediting the author for my rendering.

[jstar730]

well said, marek.

 

I am not an architect but i have done numerous architectural renderings for architects. i show my portfolio to prospective clients to show them my rendering skills without having to mention who the designers are. but once they ask who the architects are, of course, i tell them. i dare not take credit for it. am i required to mention them? i really don't think so. what would be WRONG is that if i present myself with my portfolio as THE DESIGNER/ARCHITECT.

 

I would like to assume that there are architects whose designs have been influenced by other famous architects in one way or another. they don't need to mention those influence everytime they draw a line. somehow, i guess, the original designers take pride in knowing that there is somebody out there who's been "copying" his style yet they don't expect any credit. am i right in saying this?