Architecture Question

[Cesar R]

I understand what RO/MO is an what is it for, however my question is the following:

lets say that I am drawing a 3' X 8' door in plan and then in elevation which has a RO of 3'-4" X 8'-4"

When drawing in plan, is it common practice to finish the wall at the RO and draw the frame? or do we just draw a 3' opening on the wall?

the reason i ask, is because when making a door or window family, I am given the option to use either parameter to drive the dimension of the opening...

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/2712/roquestionhz2.gif

 

when making a schedule don't you usually give the dimension of the door or window and then the RO/MO somewhere else on the schedule? or am I mistaken?

[Cesar R]

see the plan and correcponding elevation please:

 

notice on plan, its a 3'-4" RO and it measure 3' to the inside of the frame. doesnt make much sense when lookin at the elevation...

[AJLynn]

I've seen it go either way, but since 1/8"=1' is pretty standard for construction plans the firms I've worked for just put the opening with the door and swing, and put the rest in the detail drawings.

[Cesar R]

I've seen it go either way, but since 1/8"=1' is pretty standard for construction plans the firms I've worked for just put the opening with the door and swing, and put the rest in the detail drawings.

 

and the opening the the size of the rough opening?

[AJLynn]

Inside of the frame. 3' in this case.

[mskin]

not familiar with revit, but from a construcion document point of view, im not sure of the relavence of a rough opening for a door being called out on the documents for a number of reasons.

 

The important dimension is the actual clear space - for doors designed with exiting capacity or handicaped accessibilty in mind, i want to be sure that my design intent for the finished project is conveyed. Let the contractor figure out what RO needs to be for the door. All doors are made differently and ROs may very due to manufacturers recomendations. As a designer, it is my due dilegence to consider product substitutions put forth by the contracter and approve them if they are an equal. His proposed product may have different construction requirements so i believe that determining the rough opening is up to him.

 

For a MTL STD/GWB partition, i would show the door size. On a door schedule sheet and detail blow up, i would show the frame size etc and note "RO as required per door manufacturere" or something. Unless it is custom casework in wich i would completely detail the RO, etc....

 

MO are slightly differnent in that i still would indicate what the RO for the door or opening might be, but i would make sure that the dimension shown was a MO and may even indicatae it as " 2'-8" M.O.".

 

whatever you decide, i would not show ROs on the plans and elevations.

 

Here is a case....

You draw a door and after reviewing a prefered manufacturers product data you indicate a RO on the drawings.

 

6 months later, the project has started and the PM submits an equal door. you say ok, but pass some savings on to the owner. he says ok. Meanwhile, his carpenter frames out a wall with a RO per the contract documents, but the submitted product requires a diferent RO. It would have been the contracters responsibility to coordinate the substituted product with his aborors, but because a RO was shown on the CDs no wuestion was asked and it was built at the wrong size. now the door doesn't fir, wall has to be modified, Change order is issued yada yada yada. -

[Cesar R]

so in reality we are not concerned with ro then are we. its just that i was talking to a contractor a few weeks ago and he was going on about how important those are.

 

now from what i gathered, if I am going to show my frames in plan on a unit plan @ 1/4" = 1' then i should show come sort of RO, otherwise for my overall plans @ 1/8"=1' then i can just show the opening of the panel and be done?

in elevation however, I should take the time to properly represent the door panel and frame.

[AJLynn]

Draw the opening (door size) and dimension what the contractor needs to know to put it in the right place (usually edge of door to nearest intersecting wall), not detailing frame and RO. Tag the door, schedule door and frame, spec as required, noting that the RO and installation are to be according to manufacturer instructions, and put a key note about the contractor field verifying dimensions. As a note, don't take what I say seriously without verifying with you registered architect in charge and checking against local accepted practices, and don't construe anything I say as an indication that I or my employer take responsibility for any aspect of your project.

[mskin]

Rough opeinigs are important, but to the extent that you should be aware of them and accomodate for them with your design. For instance, in a stud wall partition it would be tough to plan for a door directly adjacent and perpendicular to a wall. you should provide at least 4" for some framing and the ability to apply and paint the gyp board, install some base material, etc... between the wall and the door.

 

Attached zip:

Shows how i might draw a wall with a door in it (above) in1/8" and (below) as a detail blow up.

 

I don't know what kind of wall and door sytem you are detailing so the drawing may be different, but the idea is the same.

 

It is the contractors responsibilty to coordinate "means and mtehods" of construction - It is not our responsibility to assemble him a set of shop drawings. Our design and intent should be clear however, the way we want things detailed for appearences sake is critical and we should have a strong knowledge of how things are put together so that we can accurately design a concept, but it is the contractors responsibilty to put the project together.

 

 

it does get confusing, the way we detail millwork, window drawings, roof conditions, etc... but we are merely presenting a set of intentions and conditions for others to base thier design work on. we are letting the window supplier know what the surround is for his window system so he knows how to build and attach his window, the roof supplier what conditions he needs to be prepared for when designing and installing his roof and the carpenter the same. We define scope by showing flashing in the walls, vapor retarders, and insulation, but we dont show fastening diagrams unless it is integral to our design. A set of drawings should be a road map to convey a design, not an instruction manual on how to put it together.... thats what shop drawings are and those are ultimately the contractors responsibilty to coordinate. Id be surprised if anyones shop stamp doesn't say something to the effect of "we assume the contractor has already reviewed these submittals and our review confirms only the conformance with our design intent"....

[mskin]

Draw the opening (door size) and dimension what the contractor needs to know to put it in the right place (usually edge of door to nearest intersecting wall), not detailing frame and RO. Tag the door, schedule door and frame, spec as required, noting that the RO and installation are to be according to manufacturer instructions, and put a key note about the contractor field verifying dimensions. As a note, don't take what I say seriously without verifying with you registered architect in charge and checking against local accepted practices, and don't construe anything I say as an indication that I or my employer take responsibility for any aspect of your project.

 

 

bingo

[FOG Lite]

As a note, don't take what I say seriously without verifying with you registered architect in charge and checking against local accepted practices, and don't construe anything I say as an indication that I or my employer take responsibility for any aspect of your project.

 

That's what my old office called a "CYA" note (Cover Your A**), first time I've seen one in a forum. I might have to add that as a signature in all my correspondence.

[Geoffc]

As was said well before, the problem is that RO's vary by manufacturer for doors and windows.

 

In the 1/8" commercial work I've done, we just showed the door the actual size, and offset it ~5-6" from the wall.

 

In the current 1/4" scale residential drawings I currently do, our door blocks have a 1" frame rectangle on either side, mostly to remind us to not stick a door too large into a small space.

[AJLynn]

That's what my old office called a "CYA" note (Cover Your A**), first time I've seen one in a forum. I might have to add that as a signature in all my correspondence.

 

Theme of the thread

 

But CYA is important, and it's pretty well built into the CD and contract process, the architect's responsibility vs. "means and methods", the "reasonable standard of care", key words in contracts that transfer liability - you need some legal knowledge but once you get your head around it it's not as bad as it sounds. You hear some horror stories but the bad ones aren't common occurances and usually they end with the lawsuit being dismissed.