BIM Software

[ericame]

My firm is looking to switch to a BIM software platform. We're currently looking at Revit and ArchiCAD. I'm looking for input from users who were using basic single line autocad (no features) and then switched to a BIM software program. What issues did you encounter? I've noticed that many of the previous comments from other posts come from highly trained individuals, or those who knew the software coming into the switch. I'd really like to hear from people who started it with no former knowledge of BIM.

 

Thanks!

[JamesTaylor]

erica,

 

1st off welcome to the forums!

 

i've also been looking at moving over to a BIM type appplication and have been looking at Revit and completing a few tutorials... i have to say it looks really powerful in terms of its efficiency and the interface is quite pleasurable to use, in relation to the morte traditional methods of AutoCAD.

 

the main problem i can see is getting to the point of being able to use the software in a real world situation and delivering results to match your dealines etc... my suggestion would be to assign a member of staff to mirror a current project working it up in Revit (or what ever you decide on) purely as a learning exercise.

 

In the short term this may be counter productive in terms of profits etc, but i think over the long term it would be extremely benifical. If you can train one person well in the software it'll make switching over much easier if you have someone that can guide the newer users thro the initial learning curve.

 

Another point would be that depending upon the typical work your firm carries out is going to effect how much ground work needs putting in before it can be fully fledged production tool. If you are producing standard house drawings etc the levelof knowledge you need is going to be less than the knowledge needed to work up the design of larger comerical building with curtain walling sections and such like.

 

finally check out the revit specific forum here, there are some interesting threads worth reading.

[Devin Johnston]

My firm has been using ArchiCAD for at least the last 7 years, and we have had tremendous success with it. For me the biggest benefit is being able to receive a completely finished model from a designer without having to do any modeling work of my own. This cuts back on how long it takes us to produce a typical rendering and makes my life much easier. In the office it usually takes a new employee with no previous BIM knowledge about 1 or 2 months before they are fully able to use the program but it's a learning experience. We went with ArchiCAD because it was the first of the BIM programs that offered a full range of tools and also because the cost per license was much less than any other package out there. Now their prices are beginning to rise to where Revit is but there still a little cheaper.

[joseph alexander]

What scale architecture does your firm work on? For projects over 100,000 SF I would avoid using Revit until it really adapts (probably about three years).

 

 

 

-Joe

[Devin Johnston]

We routinely work on projects over 200,000 Sq. Ft. but we're using ArchiCAD which has been around for much longer than Revit.

[ericame]

The firm I'm working at works with a variety of projects, on occasion small residential projects to a 2 phase 250,000 sq ft project i'm working on now. I am concerned about finding a program that is a versitle as it says it is and has a strong library component "out of the box."

 

Also..how many officies find themselves pairing their BIM software with other programs and why...at what stages...I'm trying to figure out how the software is used, not how the companies say its being used, if that makes any sense. Where is the disconnect in each program that causes another piece of software to become introduced? (i understand laziness and refusals to changed can sometimes be the cause)

 

Thanks to those who've commented thus far, it's been very helpful!!

[Devin Johnston]

We use ArchiCAD to do everything so we don't have to use any secondary software to support it. We do have a full time ArchiCAD guy who maintains our libraries and creates new scripts for the software but most places have a CAD manager so it's the same thing.

[Mario Pende]

Allplan Architecture and Allplan Engineering packages

[Cesar R]

What scale architecture does your firm work on? For projects over 100,000 SF I would avoid using Revit until it really adapts (probably about three years).

-Joe

 

 

why is that?

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

why is that?

 

revit can be a dog on large scale projects. the autodesk people like to promote that revit is being used on the freedom tower, and i know HOK has used it on many large scale projects, but the truth is, it bogs done on projects a lot smaller than 100,000 sq ft.

 

once you start complaining to autdesk about this, they will come in and explain to you that you need to divide your project in smaller section when it is that large. it can still work as a BIM model when it is divide, but is a little more tedious, and can bve a headache.

 

that said. i have never done a full project in revit. i took a series of classes, and sat through a handful of presentations on it.

[DesignPro]

Hi,

 

I am a from Australia and a current user of Both Revit Building 2008 and of Archicad 11 as I do contract work for 2 companies that use each of the systems.

 

A bit on me. I have been using different cad programs for over 15 years ranging from Autocad R10 up to 2005, 3D add-ons to Autocad r14 DRC auto and Karelmate professional, Vectorworks Architect with Renderworks and Landmark from 9.5 to 12.5, Revit 8.0, 9.1 and now 2008 as well as Archicad 10 and 11 so I feel I am well versed to speak on issues that people may have.

 

If I was to choose a platform when the choices were Revit 8.1 or Archicad 9.0 I would have chosen Revit 8.1 as at this stage Plotmaker wasn’t integrated with Archicad, and I feel this was a huge drawback of the program and made updating and editing nearly finished documents a time consuming process. Once Archicad 10 came out this all changed and it is now an all in one program.

 

Both Revit and Archicad are now great programs, but on a day to day basis I am constantly frustrated with Revit. Things are just a lot harder to achieve in Revit.

 

The family system in appalling and there is no intelligent search function. the families are very hard to edit and when you do you actually create another object in the file increasing its size, let alone the fact that you have to click 5 dialogue boxes deep the ok all the way out again.. In Archicad the search function is brilliant and changes to library parts is a breeze with very visual interface all in the one dialogue box only 1 click deep.

 

This constant clicking through dialogue boxes is all the way through Revit and the fact that it looks like a data base with no graphical interface is painful.

 

In Archicad the complex profiler is a dream meaning I can have my wall with set downs, slab set down and edge beam, eave details, cornice, flashing detail and anything else I want to be on the wall for instance profiled mouldings all as one wall in my favourites list. All I have to do is use this wall and the whole lot is placed. This is all able to be scheduled as different items as well.. While in Revit you can do host sweeps but this is just extra work and more steps. I am looking for productivity gains

 

On controlling your document, we have all grown to use layers to give us control over your document.. Well in Revit there are no layers. At first you go great.... but wait until you try to isolate a certain type of wall you cant as all walls are in the same type, yes there are sub types of but once again this is extra time to work out when it can just be automatically placed on it correct layer in Archicad., in Archicad you still have layers and this is a God sent and critical to have when trying to isolate or group certain things. For instance when you export to DWG all your walls are placed on the one layer... a nightmare if someone else needs to just see masonry walls.... get my drift..

 

With Archicad the production of different sets of documents i.e. Presentation sets, DA sets, CC sets, DWG export, DGN export, PDF creation where you require your documents to look a certain way and with certain pen thickness and colour and isolation of different things for different consultants is all just a click of the mouse within Archicad once you have set up your template file. In Revit you have to prepare all of these manually each time you wish to produce them. Also you get a PDF and3D PDF creator inbuilt in Archicad. In Revit you may have view sets but this still does not give you the flexibility and speed that Archicad does.

 

Yes I know you can have saved print sets but this doesn’t change how the documents look for instance if you want solid fill in walls for presentation and hatching for CC documents you have to change this manually.. In Archicad you just publish that set and it’s done in the click of the mouse..

 

In Revit I have and still do find it cumbersome to produce Construction documents, as there are very few so called drafting tools to complete your documents, although it can still be done as I have completed a few medium size unit development projects in Revit and modelled the entire building. I think all told in all 4 elevs and a total of 8 sections I drew about 8 lines, so it can be done, I just takes longer.

 

In Archicad from Version 10 onwards there are so many easier to use drafting tools to help you get the job out the door.

 

I agree with a few people here that what ever you choose you have to spend the time and do whole projects and not revert to any 2D programs to complete your documents. Get professional training as I have done for all programs that I have used. Yes it costs money but it costs you a lot more sitting around trying to work things out for your self.

 

I found that the experience of the Graphisoft team in Australia is far better as they have been doing this for some 20 years and it is one company Australia wide where as Autodesk is a lot of resellers. The support system from Graphisoft is a lot better to as you get to speak to a real architect with years of experience in both the Program and Architecture. Where as with Autodesk it gets logged then sent to the US and if they think it’s important they will get back to you maybe in a week or so.

 

With rendering I feel and most people on Revit also agree that Archicad wins hands down. While Autodesk stick with Accurender this will always be the case. Archicad uses the Lightworks rendering engine which you can buy as a stand alone rendering program. Once again Google it to see what it can do. Also there I would recommend at least getting the DVD tutorial as I have to get the most out of it.

 

Archicad also have interactive tutorials and virtual tutors that make learning it a breeze, compared to the written tutorial from Revit...

 

If you are looking to change to BIM I feel the superior program is Archicad but don’t believe me get both and trial them for free for 30 days. But you need to go into this with an open mind on interface and who makes the program. Try some simple operations like changing properties of a wall, window, library item such as one of the cabinets, do you want to look at lines of text or pictures that describe things. Try searching for a particular library item. Try exporting a file to dwg and open in Autocad to see which is better to use. Also if you are on Mac then you can only use Archicad as Autodesk do not support macs. Yes you can run windows on a Mac but ive spoken to a few people doing this and they say it’s not the best solution.

 

File sizes from Revit get quite large compared to Archicad from version 10 onwards so if you are working over a network this could also be an issue. Also I heard that Graphisoft have signed a deal with Oracle the clear leader in data base systems and have also heard that this will be included in Archicad 12 so we can expect some great speed increases in how the program works,

 

Archicad is also cheaper to maintain in Australia with there subscription service than Revit so in the end it costs you less. Upfront costs of Revit vary depending on who you talk to but on average are the same as Archicad.

 

A lot of people want to go with Revit as they think it’s the same as Autocad in the way it will speak to it via file format. This is so far from the truth Revit has a totally different file structure. In Fact Archicad speaks to Autocad better as it already has layers and layer sets. Yes Autodesk did have the industry standard 2D file format with DWG but now there is a non proprietary standard called IFC which is governed by different organisations around the world and not software companies. Do a Google search on IFC. This is the format that allows you to speak to any other 3D package whether it be engineers, energy rating etc

Do yourself a favour. Get the 30 day trial of both programs. I Think with Revit you actually have to contact one of the resellers to get the trial version mailed out to you. With Archicad you can download it from the link below, also download the Basic interactive guide to Archicad as this will show you how to use it. I haven’t done the latest version of Revit tutorial so can’t comment on that.

 

What ever you decide spend the time, get professional training both basic and advanced..

 

[neko]

andrew - that is one great first post !

[DesignPro]

Thanks, i try to be as open and honest as possible. As i have had a fair bit of hand on experience with a lot of different cad systems, and current ones for that.

 

[neko]

keep it coming !

[Tamir]

Erica

Congratulations on making the decision to move to BIM, this will be a rewarding experience.

 

 

In my past I’ve helped a few firms making the transition from 2D workflow into 3D BIM workflow, so I will share my experience with you and note those things which I believe are important any which software you decide to use (even though my experience is with ArchiCAD)

 

There are …. Main things when considering the transition

 

 

Basics:

• · Office setup

The first and foremost important is the office setup, BIM software is extremely setup driven, and a good setup is a prerequisite for an easy workflow; so when you decide which tool to buy, make sure you include help with the basic setup of office standards.

You will find that the basic use of 2D and 3D tools is very simple to grasp, it is the initial setup that will require more thought and experience which as a beginner you don’t have, and will pose the biggest hindrances to a fast and easy production.

• ·Libraries

There are plenty of library components which come bundled with both software. And at list ArchiCAD makes it a snap to create new ones, as well as obtaining ones from the web (some are free, and some will cost you a few dollars) in most cases (if you are looking for components which are not included in the basic libraries) it’s worth it to obtain/purchase libraries then create your own; unless you require highly specialized components, in which case you will need to create them yourself.

 

 

Workflow:

• ·Modeling

Modeling in BIM is a snap! it is extremely easy and intuitive by comparison to pure 3D modelers such as Maya, 3DSmax and C4D. But remember! This ease comes at a price. It is very difficult – if not impossible - to produce complex shapes (especially compound curves) with BIM software. In that sense ArchiCAD provides seamless integration with C4D for production of highly complex shapes (but I’m sure you can do the same with Revit by using 3DSmax)

• ·2D work on top of modeling

No matter how much time you will spend on 3D modeling, eventually you will need to revert to 2D in order to annotate, not to mention maintain schedule. ArchiCAD has incredible 2D tools which are specifically designed for architectural work (as opposed to… let’s say AutoCAD, which is a generic drafting software). These tools offer a wealth of possibilities and well worth the effort of exploring them.

 

• ·Construction documentation

The whole idea of BIM is based on the ability to literally “Build your building” in virtual reality, in order to come across all the problems you could encounter during construction, effectively giving yourself a “Second chance” to get it right. Therefore the more you model, the more accurate your CD’s will be. It is interesting to note, that a good office setup in ArchiCAD will mean that once you complete your model, your construction documentation will be the outcome without you having to do anything besides annotations, this however is quite an advance setup, and requires extra care during modeling.

 

Publishing and collaboration:

• ·Export import

In my experience I/E tools can be a headache at first, but once you come to an understanding of the possibilities it would become quite easy, if not automatic. In the beginning expect to have your collaborating parties complaining about little things. This will pass, once both of you get used to new methods

• ·Visualization

Despite the promise of visualization capabilities in BIM software, they can hardly be considered adequate; unless you are interested in basic image quality, and no motion. Yes there are experts who can produce good visualizations with the basic rendering engines (AcuRender and LightWorks) which come built-in, but this images require lots of expertise, and require significant amounts of time. Furthermore; BIM software don’t possess (Yet) UV editing capabilities, and these capabilities are a must if you are to produce high quality visualizations. Therefore, if you wish to produce more than basic renderings, you should consider buying a standalone 3RD party rendering software as well as some kind of UV editor, and save yourself the frustration of seeing the beautiful rendering those engines can produce in marketing materials, and not being able to recreate this fit in your limited production schedule.

 

 

And last important thing:

It is worth it to have an experienced user helping you making the transition in the first 2-4 weeks. Yes the dealer will help with the basics. But; There is a difference between having to call, or send an E-mail, than wait, to the ease of asking the person next to you “How do I….?”

 

Good luck, in a few months you will be wondering… How could I have worked any other way!

[Vince Paske]

We made the switch over to Revit close to 2 years ago and have added it to our production pipeline on all new projects. I personally don't use it, but from the discussions I have with co-workers who use it and general observations - having a dedicated cad manager who does in-house training, answers any questions the pops up and who is very motivated with a great attitude is huge. When someone is frustrated, under the gun...etc, its priceless for them to IM the cad manger and have desktop assistance in under a minute. Plus, they can do all the setup necessary to implement a BIM solution, resolve standards issues and keep things focussed.

[AFK_Matrix]

Hi Andrew,

 

Thanks for that great personal comparison. I was just wondering if you have ever transfered an ArchiCAD model into say 3Ds Max and how well this went etc?

 

I am going to download the 30day trial of ArchiCAD as I already have the Revit trial and I will be going to a 3 day training program for Revit so it will be interesting to see the difference.

 

I am actually a 3D Archtectural Modeller but I am currently looking for work in the US and have been lead to belive that there is a lot of opportunities for people with BIM training thus that is why I am looking into this software but I am also curious to know how compatible it is with 3D software.