The 'grain' in Spain falls mainly on the plain?

[Devin Johnston]

You knew that NL was suing feversoft before Maxer posted it? You're good!

 

No I said "I wouldn’t get to excited about Fry, from what I've heard there are some serious legal issues between themselves and Next Limit." This could have any number of outcomes.

[AJLynn]

Don't make me come back there.

[leoA4D]

Guy's let's try and keep this thread on topic, regardless of your opinion of Maxwell were discussing Fry and its relationship to Maxwell. I know it's easy to get pulled into other issues especially when people are making inflammatory comments, but let's keep it civil.

 

Discussing Fry and its relationship to Maxwell is quite naturally going to cause a regurgitation of all of the issues. If Fry has learned lessons from NL and one enumerates similarities/differences, that opens the flood gates every time. If you are serious about not wanting repetitive discussions involving Maxwell, ban all threads that include Maxwell.

 

*Of course, if you ban or stifle discussions involving Maxwell, you remove the only effective method and conduit to encourage NL, or whatever company, to change.*

 

Now, if you are saying that the issue is repeating a subject/issue over and over again ad nauseum, then what more new material is there on Fry. Just about all has been said that anyone knows about Fry. So why don't you declare this thread spent and lock it?

 

IMHO, so as long as the discussions are civil, impersonal and legal, with tempers kept in check, let the rantings and ravings go on. if someone does not like Maxwell being talked about or repetitive subject matter, move on an do not waste time reading or posting to the thread.

[AJLynn]

How about we just post in this thread if we find out something interesting about Fry, or want to comment about something interesting about Fry.

[leoA4D]

How about we just post in this thread if we find out something interesting about Fry, or want to comment about something interesting about Fry.

 

Now, that is a clear ground rule: post only about about Fry when something new surfaces or there is something interesting to comment about.

 

There needs to be a moderator's ground rule box on the "Reply to Thread" page, just above the reply text field, to warn respondents.

[Devin Johnston]

How is what he said different than "keep it on topic", this seems pretty clear to me.

[leoA4D]

Well Maxer, the difference seems to be that you noted we were "discussing Fry and its relationship to Maxwell" and AJLynn seems to be saying/suggesting we should exclude Maxwell from the discussion and focus on Fry alone.

 

My opinion? Maxwell is a legitimate target for fair and reasonable criticism if they are a part of a discussion and that posting criticism in numbers here is the only effective tool available to the public to give this transgressor, and any others, pressure to correct their questionable business methods.

[AJLynn]

Is your sig a joke or a badge of honor?

[leoA4D]

That's an OT and loaded question, pilgrim.

[Adehus]

That's an OT and loaded question, pilgrim.

 

Funny how the moderators (both real and 'self-appointed') seem to be the ones leading most threads in the MWR forum into off topic territory.

 

Isn't it interesting how many people in our ostensibly creative profession have such strong censorship instincts... who knew that a little Maxwell discussion could be seen as being so corrosive to the 'strong moral fiber' of our professional community!

 

To provide my $.02 as to why this chicken little schtick is unnecessary:

 

Is news of one software company hassling another one with legal issues a legitimate topic of discussion? Of course it is! It's trade buzz, same as it would be in any other profession. And if you think that 'unnamed sources' are dirty pool, you're holding this forum to higher standards than the NY Times. Don't flatter yourselves, folks.

 

Think the content of this forum is boring and repetitive? Nobody's forcing anyone to read it. What's interesting to one may well be worthless to someone else... and the world is better off for having such diversity. Being irritated with NL is not exactly breaking any forum rules, is it? If NL was putting out something more valuable than empty promises and legal bullying, we'd be talking about that. Well... they aren't, and therefore we aren't. Mystery solved!

 

Of course, if you have something you want to discuss that doesn't conform to the content of current threads, you could... oh, I dunno... maybe... start a new thread? Perhaps one could be persuaded to recognize the hypocrisy of deriding the tone of the conversation around here without having anything else to contribute? What's sillier- complaining about the software, or complaining about the complaining?

 

-------

 

I'd like to hear some well thought out comments from the 'moral minority' as to exactly why (other than 'I just don't like it') the tone of discussion has been so horribly, greviously inappropriate.

[Adehus]

No I said "I wouldn’t get to excited about Fry, from what I've heard there are some serious legal issues between themselves and Next Limit." This could have any number of outcomes.

 

Point taken. I guess what I was trying to say was that your post corroborated what I'd heard, and of course what we'd all seen implied on other forums. And then Ernest's contribution jogged my memory re past NL litigousness. In other words, the idea that 'nothing new has been posted' struck me as just a bit of wishful thinking on the part of someone who was trying to make reality conform to preconceptions.

[Fran]

Isn't it interesting how many people in our ostensibly creative profession have such strong censorship instincts... who knew that a little Maxwell discussion could be seen as being so corrosive to the 'strong moral fiber' of our professional community!

 

Because architects have traditionally held themselves to a high ethical standard. Of course, that isn't true in all cases.

[IC]

Personally, I never trust quotes from unnamed sources. No matter where I see it happen. In fact, I skip that part and don't treat it as fact.

 

And funnily enough, some of us do start lots of threads, some even in more than one forum but maybe you're onto something and we should try to create some insular, hyper-sensitive cliques where we can discuss our favourite topics over and over and chase anyone away who would dare question validity or originality.

[AJLynn]

Yeah, I guess we need to change our avatars to big stone heads wearing Vader masks. Frankly I'm offended by your comments - I've dangled on the edge of being banned from the NL forums before, had posts deleted, wasted time and money, had the same user experience as everybody else, and I'll be the first to say the NL is a company that people shouldn't buy from unless they have a very good reason, extra money in their budget that they need to spend by the end of the quarter and a high pain threshold. And I've got nothing to compare to the scale and expense of Devin's Maxwell adventure. So when we're telling you that the noise-to-signal ratio has got out of control, maybe the problem isn't that we've got jackboots on under our desks - maybe it's that the noise-to-signal ratio really is out of control.

 

NL has done some crappy things to the customers, and most of the NL customers here disapprove. We all know that already.

 

Nothing I've said is a rule that's going to get anybody banned or any posts deleted, so settle down. Comments on NL's business practices are okay, but as they say, moderation in all things. This is a professional site, and if the NL comments get in the way of the core goals of the site, that's a problem.

[Adehus]

Because architects have traditionally held themselves to a high ethical standard.

 

I vote this comment 'MOST DEBATABLE TOPIC EVER'. I think I'll excuse myself from that debate, except to note that I don't believe the majority of forum-goers are even architects.

 

And funnily enough, some of us do start lots of threads, some even in more than one forum but maybe you're onto something and we should try to create some insular, hyper-sensitive cliques where we can discuss our favourite topics over and over and chase anyone away who would dare question validity or originality.

 

Nobody has intentionally created anything. This just happens to be where a group of people with a common topic of interest have converged. Am I crazy for thinking that that is the intent of forums in general? Hmmm... nope, pretty sure I'm not.

 

And don't play innocent- your 'questioning of validity' was nothing more than garden variety trolling. You could have made a legitimate point. You opted for insults. If you don't have anything valuable to add to my thread, just don't post!

 

So when we're telling you that the noise-to-signal ratio has got out of control, maybe the problem isn't that we've got jackboots on under our desks - maybe it's that the noise-to-signal ratio really is out of cotrol.

 

NL has done some crappy things to the customers, and most of the NL customers here disapprove. We all know that already.

 

And what I'm saying is that in my view the noise comes from those who have nothing more to contribute than complaints about the content of the forum. And again, to me this thread has been enlightening on quite a variety of issues... go back and read through it. The notion that it's 'all been said before' is self evidently false.

 

-----

 

Y'all are saying lots of words, but not making many points. Perhaps now my thread can return to it's intended topic?

[IC]

And don't play innocent- your 'questioning of validity' was nothing more than garden variety trolling. You could have made a legitimate point. You opted for insults. If you don't have anything valuable to add to my thread, just don't post!

 

I did make a legitimate point-the level of certain contributors' input was comparable to school kids talking at length about things they knew nothing of. You seemed to think I was talking about you and threw a hissy fit (in fact I wasn't but that's irrelevant now).

 

In fact the only insults I can find in this thread are your responses to my initial two posts. Moderator!

[Ernest Burden III]

I think there is a nasty bug in the MLT algorithms--it brings out the worst in all who touch it. Interesting, since refinement-mesh radiosity did the opposite. It even spawned this site.

 

Let's go back.

[IC]

We're back to the Lord of the Rings theory.

Maxwell is the one ring!

[leoA4D]

Allow me to unearth why the same subject, Maxwell, goes on over and over to most everyone's disgust – the app and the company are still broken! If the issues were fixed, say 85%-90%, the subject would die naturally – gone, poof!

 

IMHO, if you want to bury this subject, you are offering a tacit approval to what the company has done, is doing and does.

 

Keeping sunshine on this matter is a constant reminder to the company that it has not been a good partner. A company's image and credibility is pretty important now and into the future, especially in a competitive marketplace. If Fry survives, produces a product equal to MWR, similarly priced and is ethical, which company are you or new customers going to buy from?

 

This is good for NL!

[Adehus]

I did make a legitimate point-the level of certain contributors' input was comparable to school kids talking at length about things they knew nothing of.

 

Or to put it another way, you entered a thread you had no involvement in only to make the pronouncement that you thought it's contents were beneath you. It's clearly threadjacking through trolling- textbook, actually. I've never shown that kind of disrespect towards anyone elses threads.

 

You'd think someone so senior here would know enough to not act like such a newb... talk about grade school. Perhaps you could frequent a forum in which you have something positive to contribute to it. I've asked you several times- please stick to the topic of the thread. So... why dontcha?

[Adehus]

Allow me to unearth why the same subject, Maxwell, goes on over and over to most everyone's disgust – the app and the company are still broken! If the issues were fixed, say 85%-90%, the subject would die naturally – gone, poof!

 

IMHO, if you want to bury this subject, you are offering a tacit approval to what the company has done, is doing and does.

 

Keeping sunshine on this matter is a constant reminder to the company that it has not been a good partner. A company's image and credibility is pretty important now and into the future, especially in a competitive marketplace. If Fry survives, produces a product equal to MWR, similarly priced and is ethical, which company are you or new customers going to buy from?

 

This is good for NL!

 

That is EXACTLY right... very well said.

[IC]

OK Hoss.

 

Consider me gone.

[Fran]

... I don't believe the majority of forum-goers are even architects.

 

That explains a lot. Architecture has been considered an honorable profession since ... well, since it was a profession. It would benefit those who wish to work for or with architects to adopt a similar code of ethics. I would hate for the advance of computer visualization to usher in a new era that recognizes aggression, lack of good manners, and lack of confidentialilty as acceptable.

 

This was a good topic. Aside from the unsubstantiated claims and warnings, I had no problem with it.

[bricklyne]

That explains a lot. Architecture has been considered an honorable profession since ... well, since it was a profession. It would benefit those who wish to work for or with architects to adopt a similar code of ethics. I would hate for the advance of computer visualization to usher in a new era that recognizes aggression, lack of good manners, and lack of confidentialilty as acceptable.

This was a good topic. Aside from the unsubstantiated claims and warnings, I had no problem with it.

 

 

Actually, I would personally tend to think that this whole NL-Maxwell episode, - particularly as concerns the flak that NL received from the ArchVizers specifically - has all been an indication the that Archviz/CGviz industry, does pay or at least is beginning to pay a greater deal of significance and importance to the whole issue of business ethics and the ethical standards of their associations with related industries and business partners; in this case software developers.

 

Archvizers, have, through a combination of circumstances - both unmitigated and self-inflicted - long been notoriously exploited and been at the wrong end of bad business associations and deals, with the various sectors they have to deal with (from the clients such as architects who notoriously underpay, and impose ludicrous conditions and expectations, to suppliers, partners and other contractors) to make a living. When this whole Maxwell thing went down, the loudest complaints came from the Archviz sector and rightly so, because NL were specifically targeting the ArchViz market as a potential long term client base with their heavily Archviz geared marketing campaign. But because other companies have been able to get away with almost anything with ArchVizers ( any Finalrender users out there? C4D Fr users?), and because this kind of thing happens routinely in software development, there was probalbly the perception that they could get away with it if things didn't pan out and still come out sitting pretty.

 

In Architecture proper they have a lot of strictly adhered to regulations and laws governed by the higher Law of the land that legislate and insure against these kinds of potentialities and and against parties that would seek to take undue advantage in bad business relationships. Archviz is probably not all the way there at that level, nor may it ever be, given the perceived difference in levels of importance of what's done between the 2 professions, but a situation such as this NL-Maxwell one, which, at the very least, galvanises a large section of the community into holding people like NL responsible for what they've done, be it even through just serious economic consequences down the road via bad word of mouth, is to me, a step in the right direction.

 

As opposed to just keeping silent, bending over and taking it from behind while letting other potential NL's down the road, or even other professions in general, know that we're easy pickings ripe for a rip off.

[IC]

In Architecture proper they have a lot of strictly adhered to regulations and laws governed by the higher Law of the land that legislate and insure against these kinds of potentialities and and against parties that would seek to take undue advantage in bad business relationships. Archviz is probably not all the way there at that level, nor may it ever be, given the perceived difference in levels of importance of what's done between the 2 professions

 

Architects use software too, some have bought Maxwell. I don't see any foundation for that comparison.

 

This was a one to one purchaser agreement between Next Limit and every Maxwell buyer-nothing more. There was no manditory industry-wide agreement and subsequent betrayal.