The 'grain' in Spain falls mainly on the plain?

[Adehus]

Wow, Bricklyne- that's spot on. Very well said.

 

IMHO, the point worth reiterating is that everyone in the orbit of architectural visualization as a profession seems to have good business sense except for archviz users themselves. And it's so embarassingly obvious that archviz users are often irrationally captivated by 'shiny objects' (to the exclusion of all else) that we're easy prey for the unscrupulous- be they architects or software developers.

 

It's understandably easy to conflate 'honor' with passiveness and wisdom with inaction, but it's neither smart, nor to our benefit to do so. To those who are frustrated with the carping on this board:

 

BLAME NEXTLIMIT!

 

To do otherwise is, as Bricklyne and Leo suggest, to do a disservice to the CG community as a whole. To establish clearly understood expectations for those we do business with is both honorable and necessary.

[bricklyne]

Architects use software too, some have bought Maxwell. I don't see any foundation for that comparison.....

 

 

......which is probably why I said this, oh so shortly after that......

 

"Archviz is probably not all the way there at that level, nor may it ever be, given the perceived difference in levels of importance of what's done between the 2 professions"

 

.......for someone who only moments ago wanted to be "considered gone" you obviuosly seem to be fishing for an argument and I probably shouldn't indulge you. Regardless, for clarification purposes, I meant that architects have strict and time-honoured guidelines and rules governing business agreements between themselves and other participants in the AEC Industry ( such as with fellow architects, engineers, consultants and clients) all overseen by the various architetural associations, or orders which license them, depending, of course, on the State, Province or country involved. Such that, in the case of a dispute regarding unacceptable level of service provided by one party, for example, there are laid out procedures to be followed in resolving the dispute, particularly as it would likely concern the architect's licensure as well as pre-determined rates and fees to be charged for an expected level of service. This is a primary reason why in many places and countries it's considered illegal to professionally refer to yourself as an 'Architect', if you're not licensed - certainly in legal documentation. It obviously varies from locality to locality.

 

If you know of a similar set-up in the Arch-viz Industry, please let me know.

 

This was a one to one purchaser agreement between Next Limit and every Maxwell buyer-nothing more. There was no manditory industry-wide agreement and subsequent betrayal.

 

Nobody intimated that there was anything more to this than the one-to-one agreement you mentioned - and certainly nowhere in my post did I state that. I did, however, state that NextLimit attempted to take advantage of this fact, as well as the lack of a "manditory industry-wide agreement", as you put it, and archvizers' notorious reputation for being exploitable, to indeed subsequently betray their pre-order customers by underdelivering what they initially promised (and which was clearly repeatedly documented even in their own documentation) and then later on selling more licences on false advertising.

 

While I'm still searching for the point you were trying to make, you will hopefully take note that mine had to do with the Archviz industry, or at least, a section of the Archviz industry, standing up for their rights with regards to bad business ethics and the whole question of ethical standards (despite the lack of a structured means of overseeing it, ala Architecture) - which was raised in a post that my own was responding to.

 

For some inexplicable reason that just seems to rub you the wrong way on every turn.....

[mohinder]

Interesting, since refinement-mesh radiosity did the opposite. It even spawned this site.

Let's go back.

Good point. I still dont completely understand why this great technology wasn't developed any further!? I remember doing some of my best work with it back in the late 90's and was honestly quite amazed with its capabilitys. It produced what I can only describe as a 'creamy' quality to its renders, which I find most of the MLT renders lack, even though they are very impressive for there realism. As a plus, my clients faces would always light up whenever I got a chance to show them an image coming to life as the solution was being computated

 

Had refinement-mesh radiosity run its course or was there just no more potential for it? Last I remember reading was a programmer of the Brazil renderer saying it could be easily incorporated into there plugin when they were at there alpha stage. This sounded very exciting and promising, but I lost track of what was going on, as at the time I developed an interest in animation which bordered on obssesion

.

Anyway, didnt mean to interupt the 'dabate' going on here but there was a message at the top of the forum saying I havent posted in a while, so I thought I would make an on-topic contribution of sort.

 

I moved on from visulisation work to character animation at the time Lightscape seemed to have been killed off. Having been an Architect I still have a real interest in this site and the work that is produced.

[IC]

..for someone who only moments ago wanted to be "considered gone" you obviuosly seem to be fishing for an argument and I probably shouldn't indulge you.

 

Yes I want to be considered back now as disagree with what you said, or the way you said it, anyway.

[bricklyne]

Yes I want to be considered back now as disagree with what you said, or the way you said it, anyway.

 

 

Well, as long as you went to such great pains to meticulously and exapnsively explain why it is you disagreed or rather, what it is about the way I said it that you disagreed with, then I guess it's all gravy.

 

I mean, we wouldn't want anyone thinking that you were disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing, after all.........right?

[Devin Johnston]

This was a good topic. Aside from the unsubstantiated claims and warnings, I had no problem with it.

 

The only thing that is unsubstantiated is whether or not Fry obtained their code from NL or genuinely came up with it them selves. There is no doubt that they used Maxwell as a template for features and even based their pre order program and pricing off of Maxwell. If it turns out that Fry did take code from Maxwell what do you think NL is going to do? Any company interested in continuing to survive is going to take action to recover their property. So the question you should be asking is not what is NL going to do but what has Fry potentially done.

As for the unsubstantiated warnings please feel free to buy as many copies of Fry as you like but I would think if we have learned anything from NL it would be to not jump in to hastily when you aren't sure what the outcome is going to be, especially when dealing with a company that is out of the country.

[IC]

Well, as long as you went to such great pains to meticulously and exapnsively explain why it is you disagreed or rather, what it is about the way I said it that you disagreed with, then I guess it's all gravy.

 

I mean, we wouldn't want anyone thinking that you were disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing, after all.........right?

 

When I read your post I thought that you were implying that an architect who bought Maxwell would be treated differently than an archvizer by Next Limit due to architects' special laws and astute business sense, both of which we don't posess. I think that's how most people would interpret what you said (or maybe I've just answered the question in my signature?) Shit, not again!

 

But you're right-I have been 'rubbed up' but not by anything said directly or indirectly to me here, rather by the admission that something I suspected is true i.e. that it is felt that the best course of action in dealing with Next Limit is constantly talking negatively about them here or anywhere else it's tolerated. That somehow that will get you somewhere.

It's also felt that people will look at that behaviour and think "those arch viz guys! They didn't lie down and take it-they've talked on internet forums about it for years."

 

If that's ok with Jeff Mottle, I suppose it should be ok with me so in future I will browse every forum of this site bar the Maxwell one and leave you to it(I'll maybe drop in now and again for a discussion).

Anyway, I'm sure I'll get ordered off this thread again for being off topic although it seems to be ok for everyone else to do it.

[Fran]

As for the unsubstantiated warnings please feel free to buy as many copies of Fry as you like but I would think if we have learned anything from NL it would be to not jump in to hastily when you aren't sure what the outcome is going to be, especially when dealing with a company that is out of the country.

 

So Next Limit has a patent on pricing strategy? When did that happen?

 

My premise is not whether Feversoft are crooks or even whether Next Limit or you think they are crooks. IMO, you are not free to warn people off of someone's product when you have no experience with it and you are relying on insider information and your bad experience with another company. Information to back up your claims is locked up in "confidentiality", so it can't be proved or disproved. So even though your information can't be substantiated, it still lends credence to your stance that you have authoritative information. I'm sorry, but that's just plain wrong and if you don't get why, I can't help you.

 

Let me just add that I am interested in what Feversoft is doing with Fry, and I will definately test the demo when it is available. However, I have no intention of pre-ordering anything. Nobody who has been paying attention for the last 18 months would be wise to jump into another pre-order fiasco like the one hosted by Next Limit. Even Feversoft doesn't recommend it. So there really isn't any need for inside info.

[Devin Johnston]

So Next Limit has a patent on pricing strategy? When did that happen?

My premise is not whether Feversoft are crooks or even whether Next Limit or you think they are crooks. IMO, you are not free to warn people off of someone's product when you have no experience with it and you are relying on insider information and your bad experience with another company.

 

 

That's an amazing statement Fran, I really have a hard time believing that because I haven't used Fry that I can't have an opinion about it. If that's the case then 2/3 of the people posting comments about Maxwell would fall under that scenario since they haven't used it, and are getting information from the people on the inside who do use it.

It's true that my experiences with Maxwell have tainted my view of any company offering a pre order to their product when it's still in development. That used to be called wisdom and insight, don't know why you look at that as something negative.

 

Information to back up your claims is locked up in "confidentiality", so it can't be proved or disproved. So even though your information can't be substantiated, it still lends credence to your stance that you have authoritative information.

 

Your right Fran, this can be proved or disproved so there really isn't any point in continuing to talk about it.

[Fran]

That's an amazing statement Fran, I really have a hard time believing that because I haven't used Fry that I can't have an opinion about it...

 

Of course you can have an opinion about it. You can certainly tell anyone who will listen not to buy it. If the legal issues were not public knowledge, then you had no business mentioning it here. PITA people like me are going to ask about stuff like that, while nice people will just move blythely on.

[imgumbydammit]

Chinese Whispers

 

IGD

[bricklyne]

.........

But you're right-I have been 'rubbed up' but not by anything said directly or indirectly to me here, rather by the admission that something I suspected is true i.e. that it is felt that the best course of action in dealing with Next Limit is constantly talking negatively about them here or anywhere else it's tolerated. That somehow that will get you somewhere.

It's also felt that people will look at that behaviour and think "those arch viz guys! They didn't lie down and take it-they've talked on internet forums about it for years."

 

Right.

what-friggin-ever, man.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

 

So just to recap:

-You dropped in on a thread of discussion of a software and software-maker, in which and in whom, you hold no vested interested beyond idle curiosity, by your own admission.

 

-After offering close to no constructive comments or observation onthe topic at hand ( remember Fry???), you dropped a not-so-thinly veiled insult at all the participants in the discussion and essentially the software's users and the threads' frequenters (an insult which you, of course, tried repeatedly to back off of by characterising as a comparison or analogy. There's a wide world of difference between an analogy and an insult; and yours was essentially was an insult).

 

-When called up on it, and asked to either explain yourself or contribute positively or on-topic, you turned around and began to play the victim claiming that the software's users were kicking you out and trying to muzzle you.

 

-And as a bonus you cherry-picked, - out of context, no less - from comments that others made, or rather, points they were trying to make and then used those to reinforce your widly distorted preconceptions and beliefs about those users, before proceeding to take some more broadstroke generalizations, and of course, the ever popular not-so-thinly-veiled parting shots again at said users.

 

I believe it was Andrew who said it best: Textbook trolling.....

....at its finest.

 

If that's ok with Jeff Mottle, I suppose it should be ok with me so in future I will browse every forum of this site bar the Maxwell one and leave you to it(I'll maybe drop in now and again for a discussion).

Anyway, I'm sure I'll get ordered off this thread again for being off topic although it seems to be ok for everyone else to do it.

 

......that victim card really seems to be working overtime for you.Talk about mileage.

 

It's just too bad the victim seems incapable of acknowledging his own sizable role in derailing the thread off-topic.

 

Until your next farewell post.......

[kwistenbiebel]

Fran,

'Rumor talk' is partially what this Maxwell section is all about.

Without this speculation talk and the bashing on Next limit or similar companies , people would all be discussing dull renderings on the official maxwell website....and they don't do that anymore...( at least not like people did back in alpha days).

 

back on topic:

Fry render looks promising but the gallery/WIP section on their forum doesn't convince me. Clearly they lack the needed pro users to post good work.

Very few updates. It looks to me they just have a handfull of customers.

They will never attract the real artists by copycatting the whole marketing system of NL. Big mistake, and yes they breath the same unethical attitude as Next Limit does.

 

The biggest 'hit in the face' for Maxwell was the departure of the great CG artists at the time of the so called 'RC' development.

Fryrender definitely will not gain their hearts by going for the exact same crusade.

Without those artists the software will not have credibility, and thus no success.

[AJLynn]

I'm afraid you might be right about that - the Maxwell experience has probably caused considerable damage to the potential MLT renderer market.

 

I guess the best way for an aspiring MLT renderer vendor to do would be to develop a very good piece of software and do everything they can think of to get the word out.

[Adehus]

I'm afraid you might be right about that - the Maxwell experience has probably caused considerable damage to the potential MLT renderer market.

 

I guess the best way for an aspiring MLT renderer vendor to do would be to develop a very good piece of software and do everything they can think of to get the word out.

 

I tend to doubt that. There's nobody more sour on the Maxwell experience than I am, but I'm still fascinated by the technology. It just needs to be executed well by a competent developer.

 

That's why I'm incensed at the notion that NL may be choosing to stifle Fry's innovation rather than competing with them- that truly would damage MLT's future, at least in the short term.

[Guest imanobody]

If Fry wants to show that it's different then NL they have to release a demo. Anything else is just smoke and mirrors - just like NL. And I ain't talking about releasing one after you've squeezed all you could out of your market and you're desperate for sales - I'm talking about a demo now that will show if these claims are true and they are not like NL. Until then... it's all talk.

[kwistenbiebel]

...spot on.!

 

Demo before buying is needed.

[Fran]

[deleted]

[kwistenbiebel]

There are very good reasons for not releasing a demo of beta software and that is why it is not common practice. The purpose of a demo is to try to sell the product. I get the impression that the beta, at this point, does not fully represent the software Feversoft wishes to sell. Chema seems to be very straighforward in his answers to questions about such things.

 

Yes , he seems open hearted about it.

But he also advises on his forum not to preorder. He probably states this because he knows how sensitive people got after the maxwell pre-order debacle (not just because he thinks the beta isn't ready enough).

If I was in Chemas shoes, i would trash the pre-order concept and come out with the beta software for a very low price and gradually raise the price after each update/version.

Existing customers could get upgrades for a small price. New customers would pay the full price.

[Guest imanobody]

It is true that most companys wait till they have a version 1 till they release a demo, but it's also true that these same companies weren't selling their beta's. The minute Fry put a price tag on their beta, they open the gates for a demo. If they are still in the really early beta stage and it's not up to demoing, then it's surely not up to selling (especially at $500). Maybe they should make their beta open, didn't hurt Rhino.

[Adehus]

The purpose of a demo is to try to sell the product. I get the impression that the beta, at this point, does not fully represent the software Feversoft wishes to sell. Chema seems to be very straighforward in his answers to questions about such things.

 

I agree. If we don't want to buy without a demo, that's just fine with those guys. Fever just doesn't really seem to be trying too hard sell anything at this point, so no demo is necessary. And I'm certainly in no mood to try my luck with another preorder deal, so it works out well for everyone.

 

That said, there have been a few images posted over there (fryrender forum) by a 'DD', who I'm guessing is the same DD that occassionally posts over here. That doesn't necessarily need to mean too much to us yet, but it at least lets us know that the results they're posting over there aren't solely internal work, and that there are users who will eventually be able to verify their claims.

[Ernest Burden III]

I do wonder why such un-baked products get shown this early. An early open beta is there to help improve the final product, but that doesn't seem to be the case with either Maxwell or Fry. NL were probably looking for the cash to fund developement, but that also does not appear to be the case with Fry.

 

Maybe its as simple as a technique to starve Maxwell sales by showing a promising alternative, even though it won't be ready for many months. If they can make a potential buyer wait, and NOT put their cash into Maxwell, then they have a better chance of getting that money invesed in their product instead.

 

I'm just speculating. It used to be we saw new software when it was ready. Maxon won't even acknowledge what they're working on until its done, tested and ready to sell.

[Fran]

Yeah. What EBIII said. I prefer the old-fashioned way - "Look everybody! SomeKindOfRenderer V1.0 has been released! And guess what? There's a demo version to try out!" Yeah. That's what I miss.

[Devin Johnston]

I agree, there are too many potential problems that may come up when dealing with unfinished software. Plus you run into the problem of time frames especially if you have a hard deadline, things don't get included in the final version because the developer had to cut them to meet their deadlines.

 

I finally checked out the Fry forum yesterday and I am glad to see the developer open to answer questions, but I think Victor did the same thing until all the problems really started. I’m not very impressed with the quality of the images, there definitely below Maxwell but the render times are just insane. I don’t see how they can get render times like that without cheating.

[AJLynn]

Maybe they're cheating, and that's why you don't like the renders as much