Workstation for 3DS Viz & Vray.

[Nick_f]

Hi all,

I am almost ready to buy myself a workstation, my own copy of 3DS Viz, Vray and am looking for some expert advice on hardware. I have a budget of £2000 ($3,800) for hardware and I am looking at the following as a starting point:

 

Dell Precision 690

 

Processor:

Dual Core, 5130 Intel Xeon (2.0Ghz, 1333, 4MB) 750W

 

Operating System:

Win. XP Pro, Serv. Pack 2, 64-bit

 

Memory:

4GB DDR2 533 Quad Channel FBD RAM (2x2GB)

 

Graphics Card:

Nvidia Quadro FX3500 256MB

 

Hard Disc:

250GB (7,200rpm) Serial ATA Hard Drive

 

Any advice on my choice of spec such as can I get more for less without buying a workstation made up of unreliable components and am I wasting money in certain areas. I have no experience of AMD processors so have chosen intel. I am really after a Dual, Dual core Intel Xeon workstation, but dell don't seem to allow that option on there website, why?

 

The Mac G5 allows this with faster processors and is a little cheaper from what I can see. I'd consider this if Boot Camp allows XP, Viz, Vray to use the hardware fully.

 

I would just like to say that I have been viewing this forum for some time and would like to say thank you all for all the tips I've picked up from here. This place is a gold mine!

Thanks

Nick

[AJLynn]

If you go with a Mac, make sure to get a Mac Pro and NOT a G5. A G5 will not be able to run Bootcamp, Windows or Viz. It will also have the limitation that 64-bit Windows is not currently supported, and likely will not be until there is a full release of Bootcamp with the next MacOSX version - so if you go this route, you may actually be better off with 2GB of RAM and hold off on the other 2 until you can get XP64 or Vista64 on it - by which time the FBDIMM RAM will be much cheaper.

 

The advantage to the Xeon series is that it can go dual-daul, so you're right - getting a single Xeon chip is almost completely pointless, it costs extra but is not better than a siilar Core2. Keep in mind that a Xeon 5100-series is based on the Core2 architecture, while anything other than a 5100-series is based on the Pentium4, and is much slower. That 2GHz 5130 is actually faster than a dual-core 3.4GHz from an older series, and there is nothing out there that is competitive with the 3GHz model.

[Mat@MDI-Digital]

id realy consider a macpro...Iv bought one (should arrive soon), and from what Iv read there very very good value when compared to Dell/box.

 

they also run xp64/vista as well as XP32. Sata drives are also very cheep at the moment (250gb for £45). So for a few £100 you could put 3 drives (+the one it comes with) and easly run 4 OS from the 4 drives, offering you loads of options.

 

Also, if you use max and vray, they run perfectly on it under xp.

 

if you do order a mac.....lower the harddrive size from 250cb to 160gb, this will save you £60. And for £45 from dabs you can buy an extra 250gb sata drive.

 

And dont add any extra ram to it, keep it at 1gb...adding another gb from apples site adds and extra £200. Instead, goto Crucials site and buy 2gb for £280.

[Geoffc]

I just checked the Dell site.

 

When you first customize the 690, its asks for the basic OS, chip and powersupply.

 

Then, on the second, longer page, the first box again asks you for which chip, then right below there is a pull down bar that says "2nd Processor", where you can add a second 5130 for $479.

 

BTW, I realize that macs are great and all, and can actually be had for the same or less than Boxx, perhaps even dell, but that still seems like a solution for someone that wants and could use the Mac OS in the first place. Otherwise you have a dual boot proprietary system with a basically unused OS installed.

 

 

edited to add: sorry, Im really not tryin to rip on Macs, but just give useful info. I just viewed the Macpro config and if you want a quadro vid card for Viz/Max, they only offer the 4500, which is very nice, but +$1650 to the price.

[manta]

I was going to say the same thing, if its going to be significantly cheaper or I was going to use OSX for something like video editing or compositing, then I might consider it, buying one to turn it into a PC doesn't make much sence, unless for the reasons stated, for me anyway...

[Nick_f]

Thanks Geoffc, it seemed a little strange dell was not offering Dual, Dual.

 

The reason I have looked at the Mac Pro G5 is because I have Adobe Creative Suite for OSX which I use for technical illustration (old school!) and I guess there is a little bit of want in there too. Just to make sure, does anyone know of links to a benchmark test of bootcamp running max etc.

 

All that said, I think a PC is the wisest option from your advice.

 

Thanks all

Nick

 

PS is it me or is the Dell website down right now?

[AJLynn]

I've done a lot of testing, and a Bootcamp Mac performs the same as the same hardware from a PC vendor - you're booting Windows natively on an Intel box and you get full video drivers etc. I'm quite happy with it.

 

Also, make sure you get a Mac Pro and not a G5. They're different. A G5 can not run Bootcamp.

[Nick_f]

Thanks AJLynn,

As you have pointed out, I will now be considering the Mac G5 Pro and not the consumer G5 which would have been a costly mistake!

In your earlyer post, you mention that a Mac Pro G5 with bootcamp doesn't support 64-bit as yet. By this do you mean the beta version installed on the present OSX?

I'm a little sketchy on this, to have 64-bit support I would have to wait for OSX Lepard, which I think is out in the first quarter of 2007?

Thanks

Nick

[AJLynn]

No, what I am talking about is NOT a G5. There is no "G5" in the product name. If you buy a Mac that is a G5, whatever other nice things they say about it, it will not under any circumstances run Bootcamp or run Windows in anything but slow-ass VirtualPC emulation. The Macs that run Bootcamp have Intel Core or Xeon chips, not Freescale/IBM PowerPC G4 or G5.

 

XP64 is sketchy right now. You can Google this all, but I've seen posts by people who have done it and it requires a few manual steps to work around the lack of support by Bootcamp.

[Mat@MDI-Digital]

got my macpro now, setting up XP was very easy, max and vray both run fine.

 

2.66 dual dual core xeon. Renders in vray 3 times faster than my dual 3.2xeon

[lyca]

hi all

 

here are my xperience with a macpro running xp.

buying any of the 3 mac-pro on apple site, don't buy any of the option

you can get a cheaper quadro fx on ebay as long it is pci express it will run on, but only with windows, not on osx side. the osx is a great os just let it on the machine, it will take only 10gb, not a big deal, i use it for surfing, video an so on, no worry about security problems!!

i than use XP for my professional work with maya, max and vray.

for the 1000 euro diffrence compare to a dell machine get some crucial rams and more sata disks, and put them inraid.

 

my 1 cents.

[Nick_f]

Sorry for my inaccuracy. I've been so use to calling older macs by G3, G4, G5 and I guess its habit.

 

Still undecided about Mac or PC and the moment. Mats test looks good with his new macpro dual 2.66 dual-core xeons running Vray 3 times faster than his dual 3.2 xeon.

 

I'd really love to see a test with same spc. Dual, Dual-Core Xeon MacPro and PC machines.

[manta]

Well I wouldn't expect anything magical, the Mac Pro is just a PC that can run OSX, so a similarly configured Dell or whatever should perform the same, so if its a $1,000 cheaper, maybe you should get the Mac...

[Mat@MDI-Digital]

if you head over here, start on the last page and work your way back, plenty of Vray benchmarks (inc macpro on about pg 24 i think)

 

http://www.chaosgroup.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12220&start=600

[AJLynn]

The Mac and PC with the same parts should get you the same performance. Like some people have said, the major downside I see is that the Mac comes with fewer video card options, so that's something to take into account. Of course, if the Mac with a Quadro 4500 comes in at the same price as a Dell you've considered with a less powerful video card, what the heck, might as well get the better video. I asked the guy at the Apple store near me about video cards, and he said that in the past he's bought PC cards for his Mac and been able to get them to work in MacOS with some hacking, but I haven't seen anything on being able to do this with workstation PCIE cards, just older consumer cards. For me, the laptop with the ATI x1600 was quite enough - it doesn't perform at Quadro level but it hasn't got in the way of working with Viz.

[lyca]

be careful, the pc video cards does not work on the macos, but you can use them if you run windows on the mac-pro. for the moments there no hack to run them on osx (some EFI issues). so you will have to install 2 pci cards on the mac.

[Greg Hess]

That actually seems to be "the new thing" to do. Buy a powermac, put in a quadro or nvidia geforce card, and never run OS X...use it as a full windows box. Hilarous.

[Nick_f]

It does seem a little backwards, running xp on a mac, but for me its potentially a huge saving.

 

I work on mac platform using adobe suite creating Technical Illustrations and do so because everyone I work with uses mac. I also see that autodesk pritty much have the pre-viz market cornered with 3DSmax and AutoCAD. For me, this means buying two workstations which doesn't seem to hot. Hoping this is a solution to many of my problems!

 

Hoping, that is.....

[Arnold Grove]

Nick, I can offer my philosophy, not technical advice:

 

I'm still hunting myself, and I've had lots of great advice here. I do broadcast design and want to migrate to arch 3d, but I still NEED to do broadcast design to pay the bills, but I would love the use of the software in the Mac, Final Cut and others for design, I can still use the adobe suite, and the great software in a Mac, not to mention my wife's now an iPod head, (some issues in our pc with this). I want to use Garage band too!

 

But the fact that you can use Bootcamp and run Max and Vray on a Mac Book Pro, with no real issues, why not get the Mac, it cheaper, and you get the best of both worlds, not backwards at all but just the point, my .5 cents.

So far, the Mac is up front on my list.

[AJLynn]

Another option: I've been reading up on people softmodding Radeon x1900 series cards to FireGL 7300 series. There's actually no FireGL that corresponds to an x1900, but it seems to work anyway. You might get the Mac with the Radeon card and try to do the softmod in Windows before investing in a midrange Quadro for it. Look at the links in the thread I posted yesterday. (In theory there should be a FireGL softmod for all the Intel Macs with Radeons.

[AJLynn]

That's clearly not true any more. There are Intel processor that cost about $240 and in about 5 minutes can be overclocked to faster than anything AMD offers at any price, and AMD has nothing competitive with the new dual/dual Xeons.

[Greg Hess]

AMD "was" better then intel, prior to the new core architecture reaching the desktops. As of right now, AMD has no performance edge over core2duo (and the upcoming core2quadro processors) and is playing catchup for the first time since intel introduced the netburst (crapola) architecture.

 

AMD's primary edge currently is in the low budget computer range, where its still cheaper to build a DDR1 3800+ or 4200+ X2 system then any AM2 or Core2duo system.

[Nick_f]

Thanks for the reference to the link AJ, I haven't read it fully yet and will do soon as I will need time to read it carefully.

 

If I was to softmod the Radeon x1900 on Macpro running bootcamp, would the softmod work when booting up in XP and when booting up in OSX? Or would it be softmodded in XP and run normal in OSX?

 

Also, does anyone know of a review for this card.

 

PS.Looks like we are in the same boat Arnold Grove. Thanks

[Nick_f]

I have just read the post for 'Radeon users' and followed the links fully. From what I can see the softmods only work under xp.

There does not seem to be any mid range Quadro or FireGL cards for MacPro. Is the Quadro 4500 worth all that extra cash?

Is there any other option other than the Radeon x1900? which from what I've read is a high-end gaming card and not really designed for 3D viz.