alexg Posted September 27, 2006 Share Posted September 27, 2006 It doesn't come often, but every once in a while there's some project where the architect / designer just puts everything in our hand. While this might sounds good, some case it is actually not. They just scribble a bit here and there, no need to put notes / dimensions and expect the 3d artist to come up with every bit of detail, graphics, and everything else. when we ask about some details, a typical reply are 'just improvise' or 'just make this look good' Trouble is, when things don't look as expected, the one that generate the render usually is to blame. Sometimes it feels like we are doing architect's job, while only doing the 3d fees. Besides, doing architecture work without license is very prone to legal lawsuit. I'm not really complaining about the job, sometimes it's fun to 'design'. It's the fees and the responsibility of design that didn't match up. Should there be a fee for 'design for 3d' ? How much should that value be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlytE Posted September 27, 2006 Share Posted September 27, 2006 Yeah typically i would say if you are working from an architects office then its probably up to the 'powers that be' to work out a standard fee to account for design modelling that is required to further a project. If Full quality renders are asked for on top of this then they generally should cost extra. I know what you mean about the improvisation factor. There is an argument both for and against it. You have argued against it, but playing devils advocate you could argue that we as creative artists (especially those of us that are architecturally trained) should be quite capable of filling in the blanks with our own creative genius! The chances are that if they knowingly entrust you with the task of filling in the gaps for them, they wont then turn around and pass the buck if it doesnt work out (at least, they would be in the wrong if they did). I do hear what you are saying but short of outright refusing to do it, I dont think theres any avoiding it. I think this is why alot of practices request an architectural background/training.... so that when it comes to filling in the blanks, architect and artist are generally on the same wavelength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vTay Posted September 27, 2006 Share Posted September 27, 2006 huh >>>>i left working with architects and starts working with CG-companies coz architectural fees does not feed bread!huh just funny i would have a resposibility of any critical situation attacks the design process Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manta Posted September 27, 2006 Share Posted September 27, 2006 I always tell them I'm not a interior designer, and won't be doing any, either hire one or do it yourself, all I do is create a scene based on the available information... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexg Posted September 28, 2006 Author Share Posted September 28, 2006 FlytE : Agree on what you said. Most of the ones that entrust us to 'help out' on their design really does appreciate the effort. Some don't. vTay: That is exactly what happens, we are designing more as an artist than when we were architects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexg Posted September 28, 2006 Author Share Posted September 28, 2006 I always tell them I'm not a interior designer, and won't be doing any, either hire one or do it yourself, all I do is create a scene based on the available information... Good one! Apart from the fact that we do take interior / arch design project as well. It's more of 'pay the fees for my design skills' thing, I suppose. But where do we draw the line between the 'courtesy improvisation touchups' and the 'you need to hire me to do this additional designwork' stuff. I can understand common people / clients requesting too much out-of-the-scope things, but when it comes from architects / professionals, you kinda think it is like a nasty scam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaron-cds Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 After working for 10 years as an architect in various firms, I've seen alot of this situation. I spent 5 of those years doing cg renderings. It wasn't a big deal for me because I was primarely a designer. What happens is 3d renderings are often commissioned when the design is half baked unless they're for marketing a finished design to the general public. Most of the renderings I did were to illustrate the design intent to the developers or owners. Before photo-realism, renderings were much softer with colored pencils or broad tip markers. It was much easier to fake things in. With a precise 3d model, I find it near impossible to fake things in. Most older architects have the misconception that it's easy or should be easy to fake something in. It's certainly not a scam. That idea is absurd, not that there are'nt unique individuals out there who would concieve of such a nasty thing. I really doubt that is the case in general. It's our job, through a well written contract, to clarify what our services are. If it's clear, you can charge for additional services when you're asked to provide design services. Plainly stated, if your contract says a rendering will be provided from cad files and material samples from the client, you're within your right to ask for more money when you have to provide the design or fill in the gaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy L Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 its a client led business. Just take the money, do the work, and stop moaning... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manta Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 its a client led business. Just take the money, do the work, and stop moaning... Ummm...who invited him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alikashan Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 its a client led business. Just take the money, do the work, and stop moaning... the topic is a discussion not moaning as far as i remeber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koper Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 i think we all know our own workflow and how long it takes to do a viz accordingly, that is with the expected data that is needed. I have put a clause in my contract that states the minimum data required to complete the project, then I state that anything that falls short from these requirements that needs to be created from my end will be charged at an hourly rate. By doing so one is compensated for the extra amount of work being done and then one can adjust the deadline accordingly due to the lack of data from the original source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaron-cds Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 its a client led business. Just take the money, do the work, and stop moaning... That's the "doormat" attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlytE Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 I dont think it is a doormat attitude. Although hes brash, in a way he does have a point. As much as I believe its important to look after your own interests, in my opinion stamping our feet about having to fill in some blanks in a model just makes us look bad. You cant have it great all the time - I dont imagine there is any job out there that is 100% perfect all the time... so in summary yes I see the issue, but I also think 9 times out of 10, its better just to get on with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaron-cds Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 I dont think it is a doormat attitude. Although hes brash, in a way he does have a point. As much as I believe its important to look after your own interests, in my opinion stamping our feet about having to fill in some blanks in a model just makes us look bad. You cant have it great all the time - I dont imagine there is any job out there that is 100% perfect all the time... so in summary yes I see the issue, but I also think 9 times out of 10, its better just to get on with it. I absolutely agree with you. That's why I followed the last comment with the sarcastic remark. We definately have to pick your battles. If you have a good clear contract in place, it's easier to win the battles you choose to fight. Your point above is the reason why architects, myself included, are bad businessmen. I recall asking engineering consultants to do things out of contract on previous jobs, as an architect. They're consistant answer was to demand additional services. Architects, on the other hand, say "Well, we'll do this for you this time but it's really not in our scope". Most of us are doormats, but we love our profession. If I wanted to be a hardcore businessman, I would have become a cpa. I would much rather be a doormat architect or architectural illustrator. I'm trying not to be a doormat, but it's hard to know which battles to pick and which ones to roll over for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doodler Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 This is very common place in the Industry. Its often the case that an Architect will give you a sketch or even a set of detailed plans and once you have modelled it up they will then re design the building. Its just one of those things that you either accept or you can try an discuss the procedure to your client. You could offer your services at one rate, ie desiger tool fee, then charge out a higher rate for final image quality... some may go for it some may laugh at you... The Industry is changing and if you can adapt to the changes made by clients then you should do okay...dont get too offended if they make tons of changes its usually a case they just couldnt visualise there own designs half the time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bwana Kahawa Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 I for one am quite happy that we sometimes get asked to do a little design work. Surely as creative people we should be embracing the fact that sometimes we get to have an influence on the building's design as well as the imagery for it? Personally it makes me feel more involved in the architectural team, rather than either being the beginning or the end of the design process. Regardless of my salary, I get paid either way (doing visuals or design work), so this way I get a bit of variation in my work too. I consider it a plus! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaron-cds Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 I for one am quite happy that we sometimes get asked to do a little design work. Surely as creative people we should be embracing the fact that sometimes we get to have an influence on the building's design as well as the imagery for it? Personally it makes me feel more involved in the architectural team, rather than either being the beginning or the end of the design process. Regardless of my salary, I get paid either way (doing visuals or design work), so this way I get a bit of variation in my work too. I consider it a plus! You would sing a different toon if you were trying to run a business Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianKitts Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 I for one am quite happy that we sometimes get asked to do a little design work. Surely as creative people we should be embracing the fact that sometimes we get to have an influence on the building's design as well as the imagery for it? Personally it makes me feel more involved in the architectural team, rather than either being the beginning or the end of the design process. Regardless of my salary, I get paid either way (doing visuals or design work), so this way I get a bit of variation in my work too. I consider it a plus! i think this statement kinda depends on your situation. As you said I really don't mind a little freedom when working on in office jobs for our firm. Because I'm just getting paid my wage regardless of if it's design development or a final product that gets revised 2000 times. But as for outside the office, when I do freelance, when a client says "something like this" .....and you give them something like that, and then they come back and say no I said "do this".... thats when it SUCKS. Or comments like, I really don't like the color of the flowers in the vase on the table in the back corner of the room..... or the any of the artwork. So then you tell them okay, give me some cutsheets of the artwork you want, pictures of the flowers and paintchips for the exact colors you want...... and then half the time they say well I guess what you have will work. arghh. Most of my side projects now are done under contract as a one shot deal for XXXX dollars, and then corrections are done at a $XX/hr fee. That way if they weren't specific enough and don't like what I did the first time, they're paying more for it the second go round. I just switched to this not to long ago and last two projects i did, the clients have been really thorough about outling what they want to see. This also comes in handy when they say things like I just want to make a small change..... you can come back with sure should only be 3 or 4 hours of work..... and most of them will remember that addtn'l chages are on an hourly rate. As long as you're getting paid for the time you spend, you can't be taken advantage of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bwana Kahawa Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 You would sing a different toon if you were trying to run a business I'm sure I would! But from what I've seen, running an architecture firm involves meetings and phone calls and rarely actual creative design work, so I'm quite happy at the bottom of the pile! I guess if I did freelance visuals it would be a different matter. I do a little web design in my spare time and have had some very annoying clients constantly tweaking the 'finished' product, so I know how it feels! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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